Has history done Judas Iscariot a grave injustice?

[deb1]

The context of Matthew 26: 24-25 does not seem exactly airtight to me.

Surely Judas must have felt “it would be better . . . . if he had never been born” when he decided to kill himself.

Or maybe I don’t have a true understanding of “woe”.

I have always thought this particular verse meant that Judas is in Hell. But you have an interesting take on the verse.

 

[Hellisreal]

Midrath is agnostic-I think and Valke is Jewish. I enjoy having them both on this thread.

I enjoy having them both on the thread too.

I ask the question for one reason and one reason only.

Being agnostic gives me no reason to think there would be a bias in Midraths statements/position.

Being Jewish, would give me an understanding if bias could be playing a factor in the pov’s expressed here, and I think its a fair question to ask.

Midrath, if you choose not to answer it that is fine with me.

You dont have to you know.

 

[pinoyjones]

Comparing the act of pilot to the Milgram experiment or the prison experiment is rather far fetched, in those experiments there was direct and forceful intimidation. Pilate was historically a very brutal leader who lead many slayings against the jews without blinking. He was very arrogant and egotistical and only served himself. By this reason you use we can justify any atrocity,(Hitler was just serving his country). Jesus could have stopped Judas as well as not to have even shown up at the garden, but he was doing the will of the Father(something that Adam failed to do). Suicide by cop is a very far stretch to compare what Jesus had done. Again to emphasize that what Judas had done was wrong but his despair was even worse. We need to be careful of falling into the trap of relativism and political correctness when discussing these issues.

Happy Pentecost to all
Paul

 

[pinoyjones]

After Jesus was sent to death it states that Herod and Pilat who were at one times enemies became friendly with one another. Herod when discussed in the New Testament always symbolises evil(killing all the new born children at the time of Jesus’ birth) Granted the Herod at the time of his death was the son of the one at Jesus’ birth, they both portray evil and when Pilate befriends Herod, could it be that he was befriending evil. Pilate was only in charg of one Area of the Roman empire, not the whole empire by himself. We can’t equate him with our president who is in charge of the whole country. He was at best equitable to a governor or couny controller.

 

[Mirdath]

Can I ask you why you care where Judas is right now?
Is it because he was a Jew? Are you Jewish?

I do not like to see other people condemn one they know only through hearsay. By the fact that you’re a Catholic, you admit just as much responsibility for the death of the Christ as Judas had: he died for your sins as well. From the Christian God’s perspective, you are no better than he. Why assign Judas to hell?

deb1:

You can’t have it both ways. Either you believe the gospels or you don’t. If you believe them then you have to believe their account of Judas. If you think the gospel writers were fibbing then you can’t argue just the parts that suit your theory.

Sometimes the gospel accounts disagree in chronology and in fact. Three accounts have Jesus being taken directly to Caiaphas after his arrest; John’s gospel has him being taken to Annas first. Obviously they’re still good enough for you to believe them, no?

By the way, Luke and Mark were not of the twelve disciples and they wrote two of the gospels.

I know

Here is my theory-and it is just my own thought- maybe we don’t have just one outcome for our lives. Maybe God sees several different possible realities based on our individual choices. So perhaps Jesus could hope that Judas would have asked forgiveness after his betrayal .

Wouldn’t Jesus have known, if that were the case; being God and all?

Midrath is agnostic-I think

It’s ‘Mirdath’ and yes

pinoyjones:

Comparing the act of pilot to the Milgram experiment or the prison experiment is rather far fetched, in those experiments there was direct and forceful intimidation.

Would you do better with the entire weight of the Roman Empire breathing down your neck?

Jesus could have stopped Judas as well as not to have even shown up at the garden, but he was doing the will of the Father(something that Adam failed to do). Suicide by cop is a very far stretch to compare what Jesus had done.

What else would you call it? Jesus let himself be martyred in order to further his agenda. He voluntarily walked right into it, even possibly set it up. If that was the will of God, how was Judas’ betrayal not the same? It wouldn’t have happened at all without Judas’ actions and Jesus’ acquiescence.

 

[Sixtus]

Mirdath posted:

Mirdath posted:

Don’t pray for them – according to your religion, they’re back in Heaven. Pray for those who did them in, and ask them to intercede for you and for the abortionists, if you’re so concerned.

Then Mirdath posted:

Considering his position, Pilate had no easy way out. Had he pardoned Jesus, there would have been other ramifications, and the possibility of a revolt led by the Sanhedrin. He was serving his country first, offering what mercy he could: he put Jesus and Barabbas on the balcony, and told the people to pick one to be freed. The people chose Barabbas. Pilate even asked them again – but the people just shouted all the louder.

In general, Pilate is shown as trying to be a good steward and serve both the people he ruled and his emperor. It’s a hard job for anyone, and he could have done far worse.

Jesus himself did not exactly object to being martyred – he could have stopped Judas, could have fled, could have done any number of things to avoid being killed. …] Pilate, just like Judas, was only a pawn.

I am inclined to agree with Mirdath on both counts, particularly regarding both Pilate and Judas

 

[Valke2]

PP, along with his wife, is considered a saint by Ethiopian Orthodox. I may be mistaken, but I think I read that they are saints in the Coptic Orthodox Church too.

How could PP be considered a saint? I had heard that his wife was but I never heard that he was.

 

[Sixtus]

Mirdath wrote:

I do not like to see other people condemn one they know only through hearsay. By the fact that you’re a Catholic, you admit just as much responsibility for the death of the Christ as Judas had: he died for your sins as well. From the Christian God’s perspective, you are no better than he. Why assign Judas to hell?

 

[mark_a]

How could PP be considered a saint? I had heard that his wife was but I never heard that he was.

They have a tradition that he converted.

I hope they are right.

I would like to state once again that I’m unsure how the Coptic Orthodox view PP.

 

[Sixtus]

—Quote (Originally by Valke2)—
How could PP be considered a saint? I had heard that his wife was but I never heard that he was.
—End Quote—
They have a tradition that he converted.

I hope they are right.

I would nominate PP the patron Saint for the unelected in public office and Judas for those elected

 

[Sixtus]

Actually I jest. I would not be surprised if PP did not convert.

Many Saints were conspicous by their great ability to reflect on their actions and experience. PP appeared also to reflect on the ‘no-win’ decisions with which he was faced.

It is therefore quite possible that he was not at all happy upon learning of the Lord’s death, having reflected on his role in it and also quite probably a happy man upon learning that the Lord had infact rose from the dead.

 

[deb1]

I do not like to see other people condemn one they know only through hearsay. By the fact that you’re a Catholic, you admit just as much responsibility for the death of the Christ as Judas had: he died for your sins as well. From the Christian God’s perspective, you are no better than he. Why assign Judas to hell

This is one of the reasons that I love being Catholic. There is a strong dislike of deciding who is in hell.

Your summary of our views on Jesus’ death is right on. We are all responsible for his death every time we sin.

Sigh. Now if we could get you to convert…

Sometimes the gospel accounts disagree in chronology and in fact. Three accounts have Jesus being taken directly to Caiaphas after his arrest; John’s gospel has him being taken to Annas first. Obviously they’re still good enough for you to believe them, no?

No. You were using the text to prove on point, which meant that you accepted what was written. At another point though you basically said that the writers were twisting the truth.

It would be like me saying that CSI is a full of sham forensics and yet using the program as the basis to solve a murder case.

Wouldn’t Jesus have known, if that were the case; being God and all?

Actually, we’re being to get into discussions on how God sees time, which will confuse us both. That is why I wrote that it was just my idea, not any church theology. I was just musing a bit.

 

[Valke2]

They have a tradition that he converted.

I hope they are right.

I would like to state once again that I’m unsure how the Coptic Orthodox view PP.

Ok. Not holding you to anything. And I’m certainly no authority on saints. But he must have done something other than convert to qualify, right?

 

[Sixtus]

Mirdath posted:

Sometimes the gospel accounts disagree in chronology and in fact. Three accounts have Jesus being taken directly to Caiaphas after his arrest; John’s gospel has him being taken to Annas first. Obviously they’re still good enough for you to believe them, no?

It is not uncommon for the Gospel accounts to contain some disagreement.

If they did not, I would be among the first not to believe them as that would be evidence of collusion The fact they agree with just a few differences suggest a more authentic human recollection of events

They agree on the central tenets of the facts, they merely differ on some minor detail. Not uncommon, we all do that

 

[mark_a]

Ok. Not holding you to anything. And I’m certainly no authority on saints. But he must have done something other than convert to qualify, right?

There was a blurb about it on Jimmy Akins blog.

Just to make it more confusing, I’ve also read that PP was terrible and brutal man and died a brutal death after being summoned to Rome.

New Advent has more stuff in their library.

newadvent.org/fathers/0810.htm

newadvent.org/fathers/0809.htm

 

[deb1]

What do archaeologist and historians say about PP. If he became a Christian, even a secret one, then he would probably have changed his life. Did he show any evidence, according to the historical records of having done so?

 

[pinoyjones]

It is true that Judas was the one to hand Jesus over to the Jewish leaders. And this was done not to further any agenda( you are still thinking with the same mind frame as oprah and rosie O donnell). This was an event that was to happen since the time of creation, many hints throughout the old testament. Another reply to the person who asks if we are talking about Judas because he was a Jew, not everything is a race issue.

 

[KarenNC]

It has always puzzled me as to why Judas was required (in addition to the entire circular requirement of the sacrifice at all, I mean).

As I understand it, the value of Jesus’ sacrifice came precisely because He was a willing sacrifice taking on the punishment for all of mankind. Would it not have heightened the value of Jesus as a willing sacrifice if He had simply surrendered Himself or placed Himself in a situation in which He could have been taken rather than having to be betrayed, therefore knowingly condemning a soul to damnation for that betrayal (as He was God and therefore by Christianity’s definition of God omniscient)? Does the requirement for a betrayal not compromise the “willing” part of it?

Did any of the actors in the situation—Pilate, Judas, the soldiers, the mob, etc–really have free will in this situation? If they could not have acted in any way other than they did to allow the sacrifice to occur, then why would their actions be considered sinful when they were conforming to God’s will by enabling Jesus to be sacrificed?

 

[Hellisreal]

I do not like to see other people condemn one they know only through hearsay.

The Scriptural account may be “hearsay” to an agnostic.
What condemnation are you alluding to?

By the fact that you’re a Catholic, you admit just as much responsibility for the death of the Christ as Judas had: he died for your sins as well. From the Christian God’s perspective, you are no better than he. Why assign Judas to hell?

When was Judas assigned to Hell?

But, by the fact that I am a Catholic we all know that some sins are worse than others. Thus, some who will be saved may be in purgatory much longer than others.
Some will not go to Purgatory at all.

 

[Zooey]

OK.

Go ahead and do it. The Church has never and will never teach that any particular individual has gone to Hell. If you feel motivated to pray for Judas Iscariot, then don’t let fear hold you back.

I agree!! I have, at times, felt led to pray for various people, for no special reason that I could imagine…Perhaps someone I admired from history, perhaps someone that:shrug: I felt anything but admiration for. Maybe its my Holiness childhood (although those folk wouldn’t have been praying for anyone who was all ready passed on)…“Leadings” are something you didn’t question much. You just did as you felt that God was asking you…
I went through a patch in the past winter, when I was praying for Benjamin Franklin. (No comparison, but stay with me). For a while, it seemed that I was just needed to be doing that. It was what God wanted from me.
I personally think that Judas is most likely beyond where prayer will help him, but then, I’m not the one with the “leading” this time…but if I were, I would feel that it was necessary, if only for my own spiritual health, to pray for him…

This thread has gotten me thinking. What would have happened if Judas has simply waited and thrown himself at Jesus feet, begging forgiveness? I think that he would have been forgiven and we would have a very wonderful story of God’s love. Judas didn’t do that though.

I remember reading in one of Fulton Sheen’s books, where he said something like, “What if, on his way to hang himself, Judas had run into the Virgin Mary?” He said, she would have forgiven him, prayed for him, and he would be remembered as “St Judas”.
That has always stuck with me…History turns, sometimes, on the thinnest of dimes. Even chance meetings in the street. Why not, then, from answers to prayers??