Has history done Judas Iscariot a grave injustice?

[deb1]

It has always puzzled me as to why Judas was required (in addition to the entire circular requirement of the sacrifice at all, I mean).

As I understand it, the value of Jesus’ sacrifice came precisely because He was a willing sacrifice taking on the punishment for all of mankind. Would it not have heightened the value of Jesus as a willing sacrifice if He had simply surrendered Himself or placed Himself in a situation in which He could have been taken rather than having to be betrayed, therefore knowingly condemning a soul to damnation for that betrayal (as He was God and therefore by Christianity’s definition of God omniscient)? Does the requirement for a betrayal not compromise the “willing” part of it?

Did any of the actors in the situation—Pilate, Judas, the soldiers, the mob, etc–really have free will in this situation? If they could not have acted in any way other than they did to allow the sacrifice to occur, then why would their actions be considered sinful when they were conforming to God’s will by enabling Jesus to be sacrificed?

God knows everything. So, God knows our personalities, our minds, our faults, everything. He knows how we will act ahead of time. Does that knowledge mean that we don’t have free will?

Take the Roman guards, for example, God knew their minds. He understood everything that had gone into the making of each individual soldier. So, he knew those particular soldiers would not hesitate to beat up and mock a helpless prisoner. That doesn’t mean that he made them beat up Jesus.

He knew the exact combination of history, events, and personalities that would need to come together for Jesus to die the way he did. The he placed Jesus in that situation,

As far as why did it have to be done this way…God made us to look for him. That is why we ask questions such as, Why am I here? Who am I? These questions ultimately lead us to God.

In an effort to reach us on many levels, God put the need for stories, symbols and rituals(although some deny this need) in us. For whatever reason, God knew that this particular series of events would reach us in a manner that would bring us closer to him.

Maybe if Jesus had simply given himself up to the Sanhedrin, instead of waiting in the garden, we wouldn’t be so effected by the story.

Heck, I’ve even heard atheists, who believe the story is just a myth, say things such as “A Christ like figure.” or “A Judas” The story of betrayal, suffering, sacrifice and resurrection, does touch us in a deeper manner then we understand.

Ultimately, Jesus’ death and suffering is for us, not God.

 

[Valke2]

It has always puzzled me as to why Judas was required (in addition to the entire circular requirement of the sacrifice at all, I mean).

As I understand it, the value of Jesus’ sacrifice came precisely because He was a willing sacrifice taking on the punishment for all of mankind. Would it not have heightened the value of Jesus as a willing sacrifice if He had simply surrendered Himself or placed Himself in a situation in which He could have been taken rather than having to be betrayed, therefore knowingly condemning a soul to damnation for that betrayal (as He was God and therefore by Christianity’s definition of God omniscient)? Does the requirement for a betrayal not compromise the “willing” part of it?

Did any of the actors in the situation—Pilate, Judas, the soldiers, the mob, etc–really have free will in this situation? If they could not have acted in any way other than they did to allow the sacrifice to occur, then why would their actions be considered sinful when they were conforming to God’s will by enabling Jesus to be sacrificed?

Another way to view this is to ask why would God base salvation on a sinful act of killing an innocent man?

 

[Zooey]

What do archaeologist and historians say about PP. If he became a Christian, even a secret one, then he would probably have changed his life. Did he show any evidence, according to the historical records of having done so?

Quite the opposite. But we may hope…even though the evidence from the historical record says the opposite.

Another way to view this is to ask why would God base salvation on a sinful act of killing an innocent man?

Well, but of course, as Christians, we believe that Jesus Christ was God incarnate, and that God based salvation on laying down His own life for us…
Jesus said, that no man took His life from Him, but that He gave it…If you read the crucifixion account carefully, He “gives up the Ghost”. In other words: He could not be killed; He had to surrender to death, “even death on a cross”, for it to have any power over Him.

 

[Mirdath]

Well, but of course, as Christians, we believe that Jesus Christ was God incarnate, and that God based salvation on laying down His own life for us…
Jesus said, that no man took His life from Him, but that He gave it…If you read the crucifixion account carefully, He “gives up the Ghost”. In other words: He could not be killed; He had to surrender to death, “even death on a cross”, for it to have any power over Him.

Why did he choose a manner of getting there which would cast guilt over dozens of people?

 

[Zooey]

Why did he choose a manner of getting there which would cast guilt over dozens of people?

But, of course, we were, all of us, guilty all ready…“There is none righteous, no not one”.
Its not a question of “casting guilt” on anyone; its the case that He was taking our guilt away!!!

 

[Mirdath]

But, of course, we were, all of us, guilty all ready…“There is none righteous, no not one”.
Its not a question of “casting guilt” on anyone; its the case that He was taking our guilt away!!!

So why are Annas, Caiaphas, Pilate, Judas, and the Roman guards so vilified in the popular imagination of Christianity, since their guilt has been removed and they are redeemed?

 

[deb1]

So why are Annas, Caiaphas, Pilate, Judas, and the Roman guards so vilified in the popular imagination of Christianity, since their guilt has been removed and they are redeemed?

Probably because we are humans and seem to need someone to vilify. We are all very imperfect, aren’t we?

 

[Mirdath]

Probably because we are humans and seem to need someone to vilify. We are all very imperfect, aren’t we?

Yet as Christians, you are all called to strive to be better than that, right? To love even your enemy, to hate no-one, to leave the business of condemnation to God and God alone?

Here Judas has been labeled ‘son of perdition’ and told to ‘get to the back of the line’ for prayers; Pilate has fared little better. Is this the sort of charity and forgiveness Christians are called to show? Would Jesus approve of this behavior?

 

[deb1]

Yet as Christians, you are all called to strive to be better than that, right? To love even your enemy, to hate no-one, to leave the business of condemnation to God and God alone?

Yes. We are to strive to be better. That doesn’t mean that we don’t have a lot of imperfections to work on or that we are automatically better just because we are Christians.

I know that I have all sorts of flaws and because I am stubborn, it sometimes takes me awhile to admit these faults.

I think that I will have to spend a long time in purgatory.

 

[Zooey]

Here Judas has been labeled ‘son of perdition’

Jesus called him that…It’s a quotation from the gospel accounts…

 

[Mirdath]

Jesus called him that…It’s a quotation from the gospel accounts…

Hm, so it is.

If anything this drastically lowers my high opinion of Jesus. Quite the out-of-character moment.

This might, however, be a case of King James getting over-flowery. Perdition is, let’s face it, a really fun word to say. Perdition. Per-di-tion. I love that word. The NAB uses ‘son of destruction’, which is a rather kinder epithet.

John 17:12 (NAB): When I was with them I protected them in your name that you gave me, and I guarded them, and none of them was lost except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas most certainly lost his way, assuming the whole thing was not a setup; and his actions did lead to destruction. However, the verse occurs before the Crucifixion; there is nothing to say that Judas did not find his way again, and indeed he did experience remorse and penitence.

And besides, this is Jesus. If he’s God, he can pretty much call it like he sees it. It is not the place of a mere human to do so.

 

[Sixtus]

Mirdath posted:

If anything this drastically lowers my high opinion of Jesus.

So what’s new

Judas most certainly lost his way …] However, the verse occurs before the Crucifixion; there is nothing to say that Judas did not find his way again, and indeed he did experience remorse and penitence.

It is likely he suffered great remorse, however, he clearly lacked understanding of the message of His Messiah and His power seeing Judas went off and hanged himself.

 

[Mirdath]

So what’s new

In general I happen to hold the man in high esteem; I just don’t think he’s God. What’s wrong with that?

 

[Hellisreal]

Mirdath posted:

It is likely he suffered great remorse, however, he clearly lacked understanding of the message of His Messiah and His power seeing Judas went off and hanged himself.

Lacked understanding or refused to accept the teaching of Jesus? What did Jesus teach just before judas decided to steal? Think about that.

 

[Sixtus]

Mirdath posted:

n general I happen to hold the man in high esteem; I just don’t think he’s God. What’s wrong with that?

 

[mark_a]

Did any of the actors in the situation—Pilate, Judas, the soldiers, the mob, etc–really have free will in this situation?

They had just as much free will as Mary.

 

[KarenNC]

They had just as much free will as Mary.

OK, I can go with the idea that she had no more free will than the rest of them. If she had chosen to say, “No thanks,” would it have been a sin? Would God have simply kept on going until He found someone willing?

 

[deb1]

OK, I can go with the idea that she had no more free will than the rest of them. If she had chosen to say, “No thanks,” would it have been a sin? Would God have simply kept on going until He found someone willing?

I think that a lost has to do with the enormity of God.

I have a few family members and friends who I know so well that I can predicate some of their behaviors. Does my understanding of their action mean that they don’t have free will?

God understands every choice that you will make before you make it. He understands your personality much better then even you do. Does that mean that you don’t have free will?

God knew everyone involved in Jesus’ life. He understood the exact time to place his son in.

As far as Mary, if you could create your own mom, would you create one who would turn down your conception? But that doesn’t mean that she didn’t have free will. Just that God fully understood who she was.

 

[Hellisreal]

OK, I can go with the idea that she had no more free will than the rest of them. If she had chosen to say, “No thanks,” would it have been a sin? Would God have simply kept on going until He found someone willing?

We will never know. Mary said yes.

 

[KarenNC]

I have a few family members and friends who I know so well that I can predicate some of their behaviors. Does my understanding of their action mean that they don’t have free will?

I would say that if you a) created those family members and friends specifically with all of their component desires/idiosyncracies/tendencies/etc in conformity with your exact desires, b) created and controlled every aspect of the situation in which you placed them such that you knew they would react in a certain way in order to fulfill a goal of your own making and c) knew before beginning any of this not just the likely outcome but the exact outcome of all possible variations of the situation under the circumstances which you chose to set up, then, yes, I might question whether they really had free will or not. Unless they were actually able to do other than what was prophesied, then they were just fulfilling God’s script (which, being omnipotent, and being the one who set the entire situation up from the get-go, He could have written it in an infinite number of ways) in accordance with God’s desires.

** As far as Mary, if you could create your own mom, would you create one who would turn down your conception? But that doesn’t mean that she didn’t have free will. Just that God fully understood who she was.**

If I were to create her in such a way that I knew there was no way she would have any possibility of turning down my conception, then I would not have truly created her with free will. Free will has to include the real option to say “no” or it is just a variant of programming.

Based on the teaching that God is both omnipotent and omniscient, it is apparent that God desired Judas to be damned for some reason.