Has Islam had anything similar to. . . . .

[mark_a]

. . . . . a reformation?

 

[exoflare]

You might want to explain to them what you mean by that. They may not be familiar with what the Re(de-)formation was.

 

[mark_a]

exoflare:

You might want to explain to them what you mean by that. They may not be familiar with what the Re(de-)formation was.

Thanks for the heads-up.

By reformation, I mean a revolt against established church doctrine, including removing parts of your Holy Book, because some of the church leaders were corrupt.

 

[JimG]

But keep in mind that “reformation” can have two meanings: Reformers who end up being separate from that which they intended to reform (i.e. Luther, Calvin), and reformers who actually effect reform from within (Francis of Assisi, Catherine of Siena.)

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

mark a:

Thanks for the heads-up.

By reformation, I mean a revolt against established church doctrine, including removing parts of your Holy Book, because some of the church leaders were corrupt.

Our Holy Book has been the same since the time the revelation was complete in the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammed. The Prophetic sayings were eventually written in Books along with their chains of narration to verify their authenticity.

Islam does not have some body like ‘church leaders’ that decide the Islamic doctrine or what revelations should or should not be followed. The teachings of Islam are layed out in the revealed texts and no individual or group of individuals after the Prophet have the power to remove parts of revelation or propagate a belief that is contradictory or not found in the revealed texts. Now, you might ask ‘how then do you go about interpreting and understanding the revealed texts?’ Islam emphasize the importance of sticking to the understanding of the Prophet’s companions when it comes to interpreting the revealed texts. This is because they are the best generation and the most learned of the Prophet’s teachings.

As for groups that have strayed from the established doctrine of Islam, they are basically the heretical sects that emerged after the Prophet’s time. These include groups like the Shia, the Khawarij, the Sufis, and many others.

 

[JimG]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

Islam does not have some body like ‘church leaders’ that decide the Islamic doctrine or what revelations should or should not be followed. The teachings of Islam are layed out in the revealed texts and no individual or group of individuals after the Prophet have the power to remove parts of revelation or propagate a belief that is contradictory or not found in the revealed texts.

Then why are the Imams given so much importance? If they are not “church leaders” I would think that they should have no more authority to decide doctrine than any other Muslim.

And why are the Shia and the Sufi’s considered heretics if they are following their own interpretation of the Quran?

Are Wahhabi’s considered to be interpreting Islam correctly?

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

JimG:

Then why are the Imams given so much importance? If they are not “church leaders” I would think that they should have no more authority to decide doctrine than any other Muslim.

And why are the Shia and the Sufi’s considered heretics if they are following their own interpretation of the Quran?

Are Wahhabi’s considered to be interpreting Islam correctly?

I dont know what imaams you are talking about. The people who are given importance are the Prophet’s companions, and we try to aquire our knowledge from the muslim scholars that treaded their path. If a scholar or imaam steps out of line from the sayings of the Prophet or his companions, then we abandon that scholar.

The Shia and the sufis strayed from the path of the Prophet’s companions. And it is not possible to summarize how they have strayed in single post. And i think you need to study alot about Islam before you start studying various sects within Islam.

 

[rdscheirer]

If you read history the third Caliph codified the Koran and systematically destroyed any other supposed writings from the people who wrote down what Mohammed said. There is no Koran except what the third Caliph wanted it to be.

 

[Contarini]

mark a:

. . . . . a reformation?

It seems as if the Wahhabi movement has some similarities (though it’s hardly an adequate analogy).

I think the folks who call for an “Islamic Reformation” don’t know what they are asking for. Such people seem to have bought into the smug, naive misconception of the Reformation as a modern, liberalizing, tolerant, rational movement.

Edwin

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

rdscheirer:

If you read history the third Caliph codified the Koran and systematically destroyed any other supposed writings from the people who wrote down what Mohammed said. There is no Koran except what the third Caliph wanted it to be.

You are not narrating the full historical happenings behind the compilation of the Quran during the Caliph of Uthmaan.

Heres a concise article on the preservation and authenticity of the Quran: islam101.com/quran/preservedQ.htm

Maybe in the future ill start a thread on this subject.

 

[Tonks40]

Ok, since it seems like the link provided by Hashi seems to verify that the Qur’an was and still is in it’s original form, I would like to respectful ask about the “heretical” sects mentioned earlier in this post. When and why did they move away from the original teachings of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh)? What are the major differences (briefly) in each sect?

Peace.

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Scholars in Islam have written books covering the emergence of various sects. It is not an easy subject to summarize. In addition, it is very difficult to explain, especially in concise words to a non-muslim due to them not possessing enough knowledge about the teachings of Islam to be able to understand how and why certian sects deviated.

But if you insist, i will try my best to compile something tomorrow if God wills.

 

[Tonks40]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

Scholars in Islam have written books covering the emergence of various sects. It is not an easy subject to summarize. In addition, it is very difficult to explain, especially in concise words to a non-muslim due to them not possessing enough knowledge about the teachings of Islam to be able to understand how and why certian sects deviated.

But if you insist, i will try my best to compile something tomorrow if God wills.

Thank you. I’m sure I and others would appreciate some kind of insight.

Peace be upon you.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

As for groups that have strayed from the established doctrine of Islam, they are basically the heretical sects that emerged after the Prophet’s time. These include groups like the Shia, the Khawarij, the Sufis, and many others.

Do you consider the Wahabists’ interpretation of Islam heretical? By which guide do you personally consider someone heretical since there is no authority structure in Islam?

What about the Nation of Islam?

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

I will first post regarding Sufism as nicolo also began another thread asking about sufism:

The arabic word for Sufism is Soofiyah. The Soofiyah are those who practice ‘Tasawwuf’. Before going into defining the terms and discussing the sect and how it emerged, i first have to clarify the proper methodology of Islam so that one is able to distinguish how Sufism has fallen short of treading the correct path.

There are two main sources of revelation in Islam, the Quran (the words of God) and the Sunnah (the Prophet’s sayings, actions, and approvals). Both these sources stress not innovating new concepts and practices into the religion and stress taking the understanding of the Prophet’s companions. Some of the proofs for this are the following verses and prophetic sayings:

Regarding the virtue of the companions and following them, God says in the Quran:
“And the first to embrace Islam of the Muhajiroon (those who migrated from Makka to al-Madina) and the Ansar (the citizens of al-Madina who helped and gave aid to the Muhajiroon) and also those who followed them exactly (in Faith). Allah is well-pleased with them as they are well-pleased with Him. He has prepared for them Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise), to dwell therein forever. That is the supreme success.” [9:100]

The prophet sulAllahu 'alayhi wassalaam said about them “The best of my nation is my generation (ie. the Companions), then those who follow them (2nd generation), and then those who follow them (3rd generation).” [Sahih Bukhari]

In one of the last advices the Prophet gave before his death, he (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “I advise you to have taqwaa (conteousness & fear) of Allaah and to hear and to obey, even if an Abyssinian slave becomes your leader. Those of you who live long after me will see a lot of differences, so hold fast to my Sunnah (ie. my way) and to the Sunnah of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs after me. Cling to it tightly and beware of newly-invented matters, for every newly invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is misguidance, and all misguidance is in the Fire.” [Authentic: Related by Aboo Daawood (no. 4607), at-Tirmidhee (no. 2676) and it was authenticated by al-Haafidh Ibn Hajr in Takhreej Ahaadeeth Mukhtasar Ibnul-Haajib (1/137).]

There is ofcourse many more narrations but for the purposes of being concise these should be enough to relay the point that the correct methodology of practicing Islam is by sticking to the teachings of the Quran, the Sunnah (Prophet’s way), and taking the understanding of the companions in our application of the Quran and Sunnah. Foreign and innovated concepts and beliefs are shunned in both the quran and the prophet’s sayings and are described as ‘misguidance’, thus Muslims are obligated to steer clear from them.

Back to Sufism, or ‘Soofiyah’. Shaikh-ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah has written extensively on Sufism. quoting him from ‘Majmoo’-ul-Fataawaa’ (multivolume collection of his writings), he said: “As for the term Soofiyyah (Sufism), then it was not heard of during the first three generations of Islaam. Rather, speech concerning it o*nly became known after the first three generations." He goes on to mention various opinions on where the term came from and why those opinions are weak, then mentions the correct opinion being that the term Soofiyah is an ascription to the arabic word ‘Soof’ (which means Wool). And this is true in describing the Soofees because one of the distinguishing marks about them was that they would wear wool as it was a sign of Zuhd (asceticism and abstinance), a major part of Sufism. And this is actually the majority opinion among the orthodox muslim scholars.

Shaikh Ibn Taymiyah goes on to say “the first time that the Soofees appeared was in Basrah (‘Iraq). The first people that established the role of Soofiyyah were some of the companions of ‘Abdul-Waahid bin Zayd. ‘Abdul-Waahid was one of the companions of Al-Hasan Al-Basree who lived in Basrah and was into such great lengths in abstinence (zuhd), worship (‘ibaadah), fear of Allaah (khawf) and so on, the likes of which were not found in the rest of the inhabitants of other lands.”

Then he (Ibn Taimiyyah) said after this: “These people ascribe themselves to outer garments, which in this case is wool (soof) garments. So it can be said about one of them that he is a Soofee. However, their methodology is not restricted to the wearing of woolen garments, nor do they mandate that on anyone or adhere to ordering it. They only attach themselves to it due to it being the outer condition.”

Then he said: “So this is the origin of Soofiyyah (Sufism). After this, it branched off and diversified.”

continued…

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

continued…

Shaykh Aboo Zahrah said, concerning the reason for the appearance of Sufism and the sources from which it sprung:

**The first source: **
Some of the worshippers amongst the Muslims turned all their attention to avoidance of the worldly life and to cutting themselves off in order to worship. This first began in the lifetime of the Prophet, when some of the Companions decided to spend the night striving in Prayer and abandoning sleep. Others decided to fast every day without fail. Others decided to cease having marital relations with women. So when that reached the Prophet, he said: “What is wrong with a people who say such and such. But rather I fast and I refrain from fasting,I pray and I sleep, and I marry women. So whoever turns away from my Sunnah, then he is not from me.” (Reported by al-Bukhaaree and Muslim). Furthermore the innovation of living like monks (monasticism) is forbidden in the Qur’aan. God said (in the Quran): “…the Monasticism which they invented for themselves…” [al-Hadeed 57:27]. However when the Prophet passed on to join the company of the highest angels, and many people entered into Islaam from the previous religions then the number of those who went to extremes in avoidance of the worldly life and its blessings grew and Sufism found a place in the hearts of these people since it had come across a fertile planting ground.

**The second source: **
The second matter which attracted peoples souls was something which appeared amongst the Muslims in the form of two ideologies. One of them was philosophical whilst the other was from the previous religions. As for the first, then it was the view of the Illuminist school of philosophers who held that knowledge and awareness is brought about in the soul by spiritual exercises and purification of the soul. As for the second ideology, then it was the belief that the Deity dwells in human souls, or that the Deity is incarnate in humanity. This idea began to find a place amongst those sects who falsely attributed themselves to Islaam in the earlier times, when the Muslims became mixed with the Christians. This idea appeared amongst the Sabians and some of the Kaysaamiyyab, then the Qaraamitah, then amongst the Baatinees, then in its final shape it appeared amongst some of the Sufis…

**The third source: **
There is another source from which it took, and which causes the manifestation of Sufi tendencies, which is the idea that the texts of the Book and the Sunnah have an outer, apparent meaning and an inner, hidden meaning… it seems clear that they took this idea from the Baatinees.

[taken from the book ‘Ibn Taymiyvah’ by Aboo Zahrah pp.197-198]

continued…

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

continued…

There are basically Three Categories among the Soofees:

1. Followers of the Illuminist school of philosophy. They are those who give greater importance to the philosophical ideas over avoidance of the worldly life. What is meant by ‘Illuminism’ is that the soul is illuminated by light, which diffuses in the heart and is a result of spiritual exercises, training the soul and punishing the body in order to rectify and purify the spirit. This is something which may be a characteristic of all Sufis except that the people of this category draw the line here and do not fall into the other categories. However this way of theirs is contrary to the teachings of Islaam and is taken from religions such as Buddhism and its like.

2. The second ideology is that of those who believe in ‘hulool’, those who say that Allaah dwells and is incarnate in human beings. This was openly called to by some of the extreme
Sufis, such as al-Hallaaj who was declared to be an unbeliever by the orthodox muslim scholars. The following saying is attributed to al-Hallaaj:

“Glory to Him who manifested His human nature,
Hiding the piercing brightness of His divinity:
Till His creation saw Him openly,
In the form of one eating and drinking”

[Attributed by al-Wakeel to the book at Tawaaseen of al Hallaaj (p.130).

He also said:

“I am the one who loves and the One who is loved is
me, We are two spirits who dwell in a single body. So
when you see me you see Him, and when you see Him
you see us both.”
So al-Hallaaj believed in the duality of the divine nature and that God had both a divine and a human nature. Thus the divine becomes incarnate within the human so that the human spirit is the divine nature of God and the body is its human form.

3. The third ideology is that of ‘wahdatul-wujood’, the concept that all in existence is a single reality, and that everything we see is only aspects of the Essence of Allaah. The chief claimant of this belief was Ibn 'Arabee, who was also declared to be an unbeliever by the orthodox muslim scholars. He himself says about this belief in his book al-Fatoohaat-ul-Makkiyyah”

“The slave is the Lord and the Lord is a slave, I wish that I knew which was the one required to carry out the required duties. If I were to say the servant then that is true, or if I were to say the Lord, then how can that be required for Him.”

He also says in al-Fatoohaat:

"Those who worshipped the calf worshipped nothing except Allaah.”

Ibn ‘Arabee is regarded by this category of sufis as one of the greatest if not the greatest sufi scholar, and they give him titles such as ‘al-‘Aarif billaah’ (The one having great knowledge of Allaah), ‘al-Qutubul Akbar’ (The great pivot), ‘al-Miskul-Adhfar’ (the sweetest smelling musk), ‘al-Kibreetul-Ahmar’ (the reddest brimstone), despite his beliefs and how contrary they are to Islam.

---

This is all i have to post about Sufism for now. Alot of what i wrote was taken from the book ‘Reality of Sufism’ by Shaikh Rabee al-Madhkhalee. There is ofcourse alot more that can be said about Sufism as i have not gotten into alot of detail. Tonks40, if you would like me to continue posting about Sufism, let me know. You can also refer to some e-books on sufism, the links of which ive pasted in this post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1049084&postcount=2

 

[Tonks40]

Peace be upon you, Hashi -

Thank you for your enlightening posts regarding the Sufi sect. You sufficiently explained why they have moved away from the Qu’ran. Couple of questions: Where are they predominantly found in the world today? Is this a large sect?

I think I understand the Shia sect in regards to their own beliefs being that they do not feel that the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was the true messenger of the revelation of God, but that revelation was suppose to be from another (sorry, I can’t remember the prophet’s name). Am I correct? And, again briefly, what are the theological differences (from the Qu’ran) that this particular sect holds?

I appreciate your patient explanations on this topic.

Peace.
Tonks40

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Tonks40:

Peace be upon you, Hashi -

peace be upon you too Tonks,

Thank you for your enlightening posts regarding the Sufi sect. You sufficiently explained why they have moved away from the Qu’ran. Couple of questions: Where are they predominantly found in the world today? Is this a large sect?

Unfortunately sufism has spread throughout the muslim world. The countries where Muslims are predominately Sufi are Syria, Turkey, Pakistan, India, Indonesia, and i think some of the muslim countries in North Africa (including Somalia). Most of the muslim world are mixed in, various groups exist among them. Saudi Arabia is really the only Muslim country i know where Sufism is suppressed as the region heavily emphasizes the concept of restricting worship to none other than God alone and being orthodox in applying the teachings of Islam. This isnt to say its an example of an islamic state, but i guess better than the rest. Their treatment of Muslim foreigners however is a major issue they need to heavily improve on. But for learning Islam, no other place in the world compares, especially Madeenah.

During the second half of the 20th century, Egypt has had some individuals (with minority support) propagating extremism which lead to what bin laden is today. A main figure among these individuals is Ayman Al-Zawahiri, Bin Laden’s accomplice and the one who i believe influenced bin laden. He himself was influenced alot by some of the writings of Sayd Qutb, an individual who was trying to do a service to Islam but fell into many errors and exaggerations due to his lack of knowledge in the teachings of Islam. This extremist methodology has touched many parts of the muslim world, but they are a very minute minority wherever they exist.

I think I understand the Shia sect in regards to their own beliefs being that they do not feel that the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was the true messenger of the revelation of God, but that revelation was suppose to be from another (sorry, I can’t remember the prophet’s name). Am I correct? And, again briefly, what are the theological differences (from the Qu’ran) that this particular sect holds?

Shia are such a difficult sect to understand, and we have to keep in mind there are many factions among them so not all share the same beliefs. They all however revere Ali to an excessive status, again some more than others. To Sunnis, he was one of the greatest companions of the Prophet Muhammed, and the 4th Rightly Guided Caliph, but to the Shia he should have been the 1st and even some have gone further to say he should have received the revelation (not Muhammed) and that Angel Gabriel made a mistake (?!?!?). They also HATE the vast majority of the companions of the Prophet Muhammed and only love the prophet’s household and a handful of companions. And since it was through the companions that the Quran was preserved, they also believe the Quran isnt complete and that the companions distorted and changed the Quran.

And the unique characteristic of the Shia is this Taqiyah practice they have. Taqiya basically is the practice of concealing ones true beliefs and instead resorting to any kind of way of distorting or just outright lying about ones beliefs. So when you talk to a Shia and try to get them to confirm their beliefs with whats in their own books, they will play all sorts of games or just lie to you about them. And they believe this taqiya practice is part of Faith!

And soo many deviations with them, it would probably need more to discuss than whats already been said about sufism. But God willing, ill try to write something up soon and post it here.

www.ansar.org is a site dedicated to refuting the Shia if you wish to read more indepth.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Dear Hashi,

You have not responded to my post about the Wahabists. Look forward to hearing your explanation.

God bless.