Has Jesus ever questioned God's will?

[beafedor]

A Baptist friend says that it is OK to question God’s will since Jesus himself questioned it on the Cross: “Father why have you forsaken me.” I do not believe that Jesus ever questioned the Father’s will but fulfilled perfectly his mission on earth and was merely quoting a psalm there. What is your opinion on this and how do you justify your answer?

 

[RuthByzCat3]

A Baptist friend says that it is OK to question God’s will since Jesus himself questioned it on the Cross: “Father why have you forsaken me.” I do not believe that Jesus ever questioned the Father’s will but fulfilled perfectly his mission on earth and was merely quoting a psalm there. What is your opinion on this and how do you justify your answer?

First, your friend’s quote is wrong. The words are “My God, why have You forsaken me?” I believe this Psalm is somewhere in the twenties or thirties, but I could be wrong. The common concession at the time (and even today) was to call a literary work by its first few words. The Psalm in question pretty much traces a righteous man’s suffering, but ends with him coming out on top. What Matthew might have meant here was: “Jesus cried out the Psalm beginning ‘My God, why have You forsaken me?’” Since Jesus is a suffering Righteous Man Who comes out on top, I would have to say that this seems likely.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Jesus was using scriptures to show who He was. The Jews knew scriptures by heart and when Jesus said those words, that passage automatically came to their minds.

**Psa 22:1 Unto the end, for the morning protection, a psalm for David. (22:2) O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins. **

Read the entire chapter. Below is the Catholic Commentary for that chapter.

Psa 22:1-31

XXI (XXII) —Isa_52:13-Isa_53:12 is the Passion Prophecy; Ps 21 is the Passion Psalm. Neither David nor any other person in the OT (the Ps clearly speaks of the sufferings of an individual, not a community; cf. Lagrange, RB 14 1905] 51) suffered as does the character of this Ps; and no single Israelite could have expected, as the outcome of his sufferings, the conversion of the Gentiles. Christ, hanging on the Cross, uttered aloud the opening words of this Ps, and probably recited it through to the end. That this scripture ‘might be fulfilled’, his garments were divided among his executioners (19 ).

He experienced the parching thirst (16 ); his bones were disjointed (15, 18 ); his hands and feet were dug into by nails (17 ).

His enemies mocked at him, using the very words of 9 ; they stood staring at him (18 ). St Paul quotes 23 as spoken by Jesus who tasted death on behalf of us all, Heb_2:9, Heb_2:12. St Thomas Aquinas writes: ‘Among other matters this psalm has as its special theme the Passion of Christ; hence this is its literal sense’. The ‘other matters’ are the Resurrection, the conversion of the Gentiles, etc. He continues: ‘And so, although in a figurative sense the psalm speaks of David, yet especially it refers literally to Christ’, and he draws attention to the condemnation of Theodore of Mopsuestia at the fifth oecumenical Council for interpreting the Ps literally of David, to the exclusion of Christ (In David, ad loc.). For St Thomas’ teaching on the literal sense of Scripture, see Summa 1a q1 art 10.

The Ps is divided into two parts, 2-22 and 23-32. The first describes the grief and afflictions of the sufferer; the second tells of his passion’s mediatorial value. The rhythm is purposely changed, to give one note for grief and another for triumph—a minor and major key, as Lagrange points out. Naturally it is a Good Friday Ps. (In the weekly office it is recited at Prime on Friday. Pss 21-24 are traditionally Prime psalms.

1. Quoted in Aramaic by Christ on the cross, Mar_25:34. Read with MT ‘the words of my groaning’; NP ‘verbis clamoris mei’.

1. ‘and it shall not be reputed as folly in me’. NP ‘et non attendis ad me’ follows Vaccari ‘non est auscultatio mihi’, VD 7 ( 1927) 298.

1. Cf.Isa_53:3.8. Mat_27:39; Mar_15:29; Luk_23:35.9. Mat_27:43. ‘Wonderful prophecy, predicting not only the facts, but the very words used!’ (St Robert Bellarmine).

1. Christ’s Virgin Mother has a place in the Ps. ‘In a particular manner Christ is said to have been drawn forth from his mother’s womb, because he was conceived in a wonderful manner, and born without a human father, while his mother remained a virgin’ (St Thomas Aquinas, ad loc.). 11. After the maternity, the divine paternity. When a Hebrew child was born, he was placed on his father’s knees, who thereby recognized him as his own son; Gen_30:3; Gen_50:22; Job_3:12.13. He likens his enemies to wild beasts.

1. ‘scattered’: ‘are out of joint’.

1. Joh_19:28.17. His cruel enemies are likened to a pack of savage dogs. They have dug (MT ‘like a lion’ is impossible) into his hands and feet; they stare and gloat over his emaciated and naked body.

1. Joh_19:24; Mat_27:35.21. ‘my only one’, my life, parallel with ‘my soul’. 22 is alluded to in 2Ti_4:17. ‘my lowness’: ‘my afflicted soul’.

23-25. The preaching first to the Jews; cf.Heb_2:12.

Then, 26-27, the praise ‘in a great church’ (assembly)—the Church Catholic—in which he will pay his vows. ‘What are “his vows”? The sacrifice which he offered to God. Do you know what that sacrifice was? The faithful know what vows he paid in the sight of them that fear him, for the text continues: “The poor shall cat and be filled!”. . . The faithful know the sacrifice of peace, the sacrifice of love, the sacrifice of his Body’ (cf. St Augustine, PL 36, 178).

28-29. The great assembly becomes worldwide; all nations worship the true God; his Kingdom is established on earth.

1. Rich and poor alike— ‘fat ones of the earth’ and ‘they that go down to the earth’—shall partake of a sacrificial meal. Making three corrections in MT, and following recent commentators, NP renders 30a ‘All those who sleep in the earth shall worship him alone’. As Calès remarks: ‘Le changement est séduisant, mais ne s’impose pas’.

1. ‘my seed’, according to the Targum, is the seed of Abraham, which, in the NT, is the Christian Church; Gal_3:16, Gal_3:19, Gal_3:29; Rom_9:7 f.32. ‘a generation to come . . . a people that shall be born’: the future Christian people.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

A Baptist friend says that it is OK to question God’s will since Jesus himself questioned it on the Cross: “Father why have you forsaken me.” I do not believe that Jesus ever questioned the Father’s will but fulfilled perfectly his mission on earth and was merely quoting a psalm there. What is your opinion on this and how do you justify your answer?

What does he mean “to question God’s will?” Does this mean to ask God what his will is? Does he mean it is okay to express lament or sorrow for suffering, yet still affirming to do God’s will? Or does he mean he thinks it is OK to contend against God’s will? If the latter, then he is incorrect. It is never OK to contend against God’s will, nor did Jesus ever do such a thing. The will of the Father and of the Son have always been united. In fact, Jesus has two wills, a divine will and a human will. Although these wills are distinct, they were never opposed to one another.

Psalm 22 is a prayer of lament. When Jesus prayed this prayer from the cross, we should keep the context of the entire psalm in mind and not attribute to Jesus a human will that was in any way contrary to the divine will.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

As I recall the Psalm is attributed to the Messiah. By repeating it, Jesus was stating His claim to be the Messiah.

Better examples of questioning God might be Zechariah’s response

18* And Zechariah said to the angel: “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.” 19* And the angel answered him, “I am Gabriel, who stand in the presence of God; and I was sent to speak to you, and to bring you this good news. 20 And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day that these things come to pass, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time.”

Luke 18-20

vs Mary’s response :

34* And Mary said to the angel, “How shall this be, since I have no husband?”

Luke 1:34

Mary accepted that God could do it but was curious how. Zechariah doubted God’s ability to do it.

 

[anthonyR]

A Baptist friend says that it is OK to question God’s will since Jesus himself questioned it on the Cross: “Father why have you forsaken me.” I do not believe that Jesus ever questioned the Father’s will but fulfilled perfectly his mission on earth and was merely quoting a psalm there. What is your opinion on this and how do you justify your answer?

Dear Beafedor,
Jesus did NOT question God’s will.
It becomes very difficult to explain the life that Jesus led unless one is given The Paraclete.
The Apostles were given the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus.Acts 8:32, the Holy Spirit told Philip “Go to the chariot…and 8:39 when they came out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away.
Jesus himself was under the guidance of the Holy Spirit given to him at his Baptism by the Father. ( through John the Baptist), This same Holy Spirit led him into the desert to teach him about his coming role as Teacher and Preacher in the coming three years of his existence.
The Evil one was also sent to test him repeatedly and indirectly to teach him right from wrong.
Power Loss:
In Mk 5:30 once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him, he turned around in the crowd and asked: “Who touched my clothes?”.(He was aware of Power leaving him”.
On the cross, when the time came to live his last hour, Jesus felt the Power from God Leaving him.He cried out:" Father, why has thou forsaken me?"
As long as he was filled with God’s Spirit, he could bear extreme pain but once the Spirit started to leave him, the pain became unbearable and he cried out in desperation to his Father.Who else from those who surrounded him could he call on for help in his pain?. It is a normal human reaction for a child to cry “Mummy” when falls down and hurts himself.
Was Jesus like a child? In a sense yes. “Unless you be like one of these my little ones, you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven”. If Daddy calls you, just go with Dad.
And NOW why did the Spirit from God “leave” him?
Because as long as the Spirit from the Father was in him:“Destroy this temple and I will build it up in three days”, Jesus could not die. The power of God had to leave him for The Son of Man to die.
Happy coming Easter.
“He never, ever said NO to me”. El Shaddai.
unavec sunray

 

[504Katrin]

I’ve always interpreted these words why God had forsaken him this way that the Father (the Holy Spirit) had really left him for a minute for whatever reason, and that he could immediately feel it. So imo it was not like he questioned God’s will, but that he felt that he had lost the Holy Spirit for a minute, and he couldn’t understand why he felt this way, and so he asked him. As soon as he had asked him, the Holy Spirit was back with him tho.

 

[Zenas]

You can make a better case for Jesus questioning God’s will by His prayer of agony in the garden.

Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done. Luke 22:42.

This shows that for that brief time the wills of the two were not in complete complete accord.

 

[johnbres2]

Why is the clearest interpretation of Jesus’ words on the cross never mentioned? That is, that He was a human being in agony, and felt abandoned by God. He wasn’t just pretending to feel this way, and groaning out the words of the Psalm as some sort of nod-and-wink to the Jews, like, “hey, this is where I am suffering like the righteous man who triumphs.” Rather, he was identifying with human suffering by actually experiencing it in the most extreme manner. He felt abandoned, but was still crying out to God, because he understood that God was still there, but it didn’t feel like it right then.

We should not be afraid of the fact that Jesus was a human being in addition to being God. Too many Catholics don’t go there for a minute because they are worried that Jesus cannot be God if He was too human. You have to accept Jesus’ humanity as well as his divinity. He suffered…

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I’ve always interpreted these words why God had forsaken him this way that the Father (the Holy Spirit) had really left him for a minute for whatever reason…

That interpretation is not congurent with Catholic doctrine regarding the hypostatic union. Incarnate Jesus, from the moment of his conception, was never apart from his Father and the Holy Spirit.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

…This shows that for that brief time the wills of the two were not in complete complete accord.

I disagree. The Church has never interpreted this passage to mean the human will of Christ was contrary to the Divine will of the Father. This interpretation seems more and more common in Protestantism, but it was never the teaching of ancient Christianity.

Expressing sorrow for the suffering which is about to occur does not mean he “felt abandoned” by God. The protestant hermeneutic of Sola Scritpura too often leads to what is called eisegesis (reading into the text), which conjures up meanings contradictory to the ancient Christian deposit of faith.

We know from Scripture that Christ sometimes spoke from the point of view of his members, the Church. For instance, when Christ said to Saul, “why are you persecuting me”, he was speaking in he person of his members, His Body, the Church. He was not merely “pretending” or “winking” when he spoke in such a way, but was really speaking from the point of view of his members the Church. There were also other times, e.g. praying Psalm 22, where he spoke in such a way, from the perspective of his members, the Church.

So, when a faithful man prays Psalm 22, praying these words, “O my God, I shall cry by day, and you will not hear”, it is not a pretense to say that as a believer, I do indeed know that God hears my prayer. A believer can pray these words without denying this fact. It is a faithful psalm of lament, not a repudiation of faith. It expresses an appearance of abandonment, at the same time expressing faithful confidence that God will never abandon the faithful. We ought to avoid taking a line from Scritpure out of the context of the entire deposit of faith, contrary to proper exegesis.

Christ, when praying that if possible, the cup of suffering may pass by, never contradicted the will of the Father, as it is clear that he included within this prayer, “thy will be done.” This too was Christ teaching us how to pray, always in union with the will of the Father, even when what we are being called upon to do involves great suffering.

 

[rdscheirer]

Read Psalm 22 in its entirety- that is was what Jesus was saying to the Jews- especially concentrate on the second or so half.

Bob

 

[beafedor]

First, your friend’s quote is wrong. The words are “My God, why have You forsaken me?” I believe this Psalm is somewhere in the twenties or thirties, but I could be wrong. The common concession at the time (and even today) was to call a literary work by its first few words. The Psalm in question pretty much traces a righteous man’s suffering, but ends with him coming out on top. What Matthew might have meant here was: “Jesus cried out the Psalm beginning ‘My God, why have You forsaken me?’” Since Jesus is a suffering Righteous Man Who comes out on top, I would have to say that this seems likely.

Oops, I’m the one who misquoted Scripture, not my friend. Thank you for noticing that and thank you for your answer, it makes a lot of sense.

 

[beafedor]

What does he mean “to question God’s will?” Does this mean to ask God what his will is? Does he mean it is okay to express lament or sorrow for suffering, yet still affirming to do God’s will? Or does he mean he thinks it is OK to contend against God’s will? If the latter, then he is incorrect. It is never OK to contend against God’s will, nor did Jesus ever do such a thing. The will of the Father and of the Son have always been united. In fact, Jesus has two wills, a divine will and a human will. Although these wills are distinct, they were never opposed to one another.

Psalm 22 is a prayer of lament. When Jesus prayed this prayer from the cross, we should keep the context of the entire psalm in mind and not attribute to Jesus a human will that was in any way contrary to the divine will.

This needs to be clarified: the exact words of my friends were: “It is OK for me to question God because even Jesus questioned him on the cross” and then quoting the verse My God why have you forsaken me.
When I asked my question on the forum I changed the wording because “questioning God” can have several meanings: questioning God’s existence, or God’s goodness, God’s omnipotence, or God’s will. Questioning God’s will and questioning God’s plan for us is what my friend meant. It was not about rebellion but about expressing anger, fear, disgust and other negative emotions (maybe even acting on them) but eventually coming to accept God’s plan for your life.

 

[beafedor]

I disagree. The Church has never interpreted this passage to mean the human will of Christ was contrary to the Divine will of the Father. This interpretation seems more and more common in Protestantism, but it was never the teaching of ancient Christianity.

Expressing sorrow for the suffering which is about to occur does not mean he “felt abandoned” by God. The protestant hermeneutic of Sola Scritpura too often leads to what is called eisegesis (reading into the text), which conjures up meanings contradictory to the ancient Christian deposit of faith.

We know from Scripture that Christ sometimes spoke from the point of view of his members, the Church. For instance, when Christ said to Saul, “why are you persecuting me”, he was speaking in he person of his members, His Body, the Church. He was not merely “pretending” or “winking” when he spoke in such a way, but was really speaking from the point of view of his members the Church. There were also other times, e.g. praying Psalm 22, where he spoke in such a way, from the perspective of his members, the Church.

So, when a faithful man prays Psalm 22, praying these words, “O my God, I shall cry by day, and you will not hear”, it is not a pretense to say that as a believer, I do indeed know that God hears my prayer. A believer can pray these words without denying this fact. It is a faithful psalm of lament, not a repudiation of faith. It expresses an appearance of abandonment, at the same time expressing faithful confidence that God will never abandon the faithful. We ought to avoid taking a line from Scritpure out of the context of the entire deposit of faith, contrary to proper exegesis.

Christ, when praying that if possible, the cup of suffering may pass by, never contradicted the will of the Father, as it is clear that he included within this prayer, “thy will be done.” This too was Christ teaching us how to pray, always in union with the will of the Father, even when what we are being called upon to do involves great suffering.

Thank you so much for your contributions. I have to say that part of the reason I walked away from the Church as a teenager is because of that passage of Scripture. If God abandoned his own son, how can God be good to us? 20 years later I understand this verse with the interpretation that you have indicated.

 

[beafedor]

Jesus was using scriptures to show who He was. The Jews knew scriptures by heart and when Jesus said those words, that passage automatically came to their minds.
Read the entire chapter. Below is the Catholic Commentary for that chapter.

Thanks for a great reminder.

 

[anthonyR]

What does he mean “to question God’s will?” Does this mean to ask God what his will is? Does he mean it is okay to express lament or sorrow for suffering, yet still affirming to do God’s will? Or does he mean he thinks it is OK to contend against God’s will? If the latter, then he is incorrect. It is never OK to contend against God’s will, nor did Jesus ever do such a thing. The will of the Father and of the Son have always been united. In fact, Jesus has two wills, a divine will and a human will. Although these wills are distinct, they were never opposed to one another.

Psalm 22 is a prayer of lament. When Jesus prayed this prayer from the cross, we should keep the context of the entire psalm in mind and not attribute to Jesus a human will that was in any way contrary to the divine will.

Dear friend in the body of Christ.
You could call me a minor prophet after reading my blogspot:
anthonyRpereira.blogspot.com (un avec sunraytony…is its title.)
I think I have defined God’s Will pretty well there.

As Jesus would want to say, If you have ears to hear listen. In todays parlance take it or leave it would seem more apporpriate.
What say you,

Bye and take care,

SRT

 

[504Katrin]

As long as he was filled with God’s Spirit, he could bear extreme pain but once the Spirit started to leave him, the pain became unbearable and he cried out in desperation to his Father.

And NOW why did the Spirit from God “leave” him?
Because as long as the Spirit from the Father was in him:“Destroy this temple and I will build it up in three days”, Jesus could not die. The power of God had to leave him for The Son of Man to die.
Happy coming Easter.
“He never, ever said NO to me”. El Shaddai.
unavec sunray

I did not understand this I tried everything but still can’t. On Tuesday I asked in church and quoted this passage in my own words but they say that the Holy Spirit has never left him.
Would you explain please why the Holy Spirit had to leave him in order for him to be able to die? I’m lost

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I did not understand this…

I did. It’s heresy. I recommend you “listen to the Church” (Matt 18:17), not those claiming to be minor prophets, saying they’ve “defined God’s will” for us.

 

[504Katrin]

I did. It’s heresy. I recommend you “listen to the Church” (Matt 18:17), not those claiming to be minor prophets, saying they’ve “defined God’s will” for us.

Oh! I see what you did there You’re right