Has Mary been put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and the Redeemer, Jesus?

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A relative (a Baptist believer) recently said to me that he has problems with Catholic veneration and worship of Mary.
He says the Bible does not back this up nor does history. That this is a teaching of men.
He claims this came to a head after World War 11 when the then Pope had the doctrine passed and was strongly backed by the South American Roman Catholic Church, the doctrine being, that ‘Mary is equal in standing with the Lord Jesus Christ and can be sought after for salvation.’
Code: 
What is he talking about? The Pope getting this Doctrine passed?
It is beyond anything I know of !, that Mary is equal in standing with the Lord Jesus and can be sought after for salvation , this is doctrine?

Pope PiusX11 did say, “ Mary’s kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God ,as, nothing is excluded from her domain.”
Could this be what my relative is referring to when he claims what Catholic doctrine is saying, ‘Mary is equal in standing with Jesus and can be sought after for salvation’?

If anyone has heard this claim about Pope PiusX11 as being truth please post, thank you!
Peace, Carlan
 
He’s wrong.

No, Mary has NOT been put on the same level.

She is Queen of heaven as MOTHER of the King (Jesus) as per Jewish (Davidic) law and tradition and foretold in the Old Testament and proclaimed in the New (Revelation).

She is NOT a “Queen regnant”, that is, a queen who rules in her own right like Elizabeth the II of England. Rather, her status is that her Title comes from the actual kingship of her SON. There have been many monarchies where the ruler (usually male) is the crowned king and his wife has the title of queen but has status not in herself but in being ‘consort’ or in being ‘mother’ to the king. A little historical reading would give you an idea.

Pulling papal quotes out of nowhere, giving no context and perhaps not even correctly reporting what was actually said, proves nothing, so your friend needs to do his OWN work instead of trying to have you prove or disprove what he claims.

Tell him to go right to our catechism (easily found on line) and bring up where Mary is given equal status as god with Christ. That should stop him.
 
Right- there is no such doctrine and Mary is venerated, not worshipped. I’m currently taking a graduate course in Mariology from Holy Apostles and two of our primary sources are the Catechism and Lumen Gentium chapter 8. In addition to study of Holy Scripture and Church documents regarding the role of Mary in Catholic doctrine, we are also learning methods of apologetics regarding Mary.

Though it’s not one of our required readings (on our suggested reading list) at Holy Apostles, anotther excellent source on Mary is “Mary- the Church at the Source” by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger and Hans Urs von Balthasar. This was co-written by our current Pope in the mid-90’s, and contains his usual deep and brilliant theological insights.
 
I would only also add that veneration of Mary is historical, ancient, really, and supported by scripture. It is not a new thing in the Church.
 
Faithdancer said:
Right- there is no such doctrine and Mary is venerated, not worshipped. I’m currently taking a graduate course in Mariology from Holy Apostles and two of our primary sources are the Catechism and Lumen Gentium chapter 8. In addition to study of Holy Scripture and Church documents regarding the role of Mary in Catholic doctrine, we are also learning methods of apologetics regarding Mary.

Though it’s not one of our required readings (on our suggested reading list) at Holy Apostles, anotther excellent source on Mary is “Mary- the Church at the Source” by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger and Hans Urs von Balthasar. This was co-written by our current Pope in the mid-90’s, and contains his usual deep and brilliant theological insights.
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Have you gotten into St. Alphonsus Ligouri’s The Glories Of Mary?
 
Right, maybe you should also inform your relative, the Baptist Church was singing hymns to St Mary as late as 1906 for Her intercession. 🤷 What happened? Did they receive a new revelation??? Maybe they would like to share that with the rest of the world.

The Blessed Mother is the Gate to Heaven, the Neck of the Mystical body. Not a new teaching. In fact the veneration dates to the Forth Century. and earlier in the Arts.

Of course its Biblical/Historical/Patristic… and Dogma of the CC.

On the level of Jesus Christ is a “incorrect” protestant falacy. In fact its a lie promoted daily by those who wish to pass judgement on a church to boister there own position. 🤷 Such infantile behavior.

Christ is the Head of the Mystical Body. 👍
 
Carlan said:
A relative (a Baptist believer) recently said to me that he has problems with Catholic veneration and worship of Mary.
He says the Bible does not back this up nor does history. That this is a teaching of men.
He claims this came to a head after World War 11 when the then Pope had the doctrine passed and was strongly backed by the South American Roman Catholic Church, the doctrine being, that ‘Mary is equal in standing with the Lord Jesus Christ and can be sought after for salvation.’
Code: 
What is he talking about? The Pope getting this Doctrine passed?
It is beyond anything I know of !, that Mary is equal in standing with the Lord Jesus and can be sought after for salvation , this is doctrine?

Pope PiusX11 did say, “ Mary’s kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God ,as, nothing is excluded from her domain.”
Could this be what my relative is referring to when he claims what Catholic doctrine is saying, ‘Mary is equal in standing with Jesus and can be sought after for salvation’?

If anyone has heard this claim about Pope PiusX11 as being truth please post, thank you!
Peace, Carlan
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Bottom line is no we do not worship her. Worship is reserved for God alone. We do venerate her as a Saint above all Saints because she is our mother and without her assent God’s salvific plan could not have been brought fourth. Your relative doesn’t know Catholic doctrine very well and don’t let him fool you into believeing that Catholic do things that we don’t. Also, make sure he understands what Catholics mean by prayer and worship. Prayer for us does not equate worship. But prayer for Protestants often means worship. So make sure you get the semantics down first so there is no confusion

First of all, I don’t know about the quotes your relative is attributing to Pious XII. I suspect that he is inaccurately paraphrasing based upon a misunderstanding or is taking the quote out of context. I mean think about how we celebrate Mass. IF Mary were really equal to God wouldn’t we adjust the Mass accordingly to worship her. Have any Creeds been adjusted? Do we sit there and God the Father, Jesus his Son and The Holy Spirit and oh yes Mary thanks for giving us our salvation. No and for good reason because Mary is just a creature, a sinless one, but a creature like we all are not God and therefore cannot save us. That doesn’t mean that she cannot intercede (not mediate as that is for Jesus alone) for us and help bring us to Jesus and petition Jesus for us as an good mother would do.

Your relative is also mistaken regading the about when the Doctrines regarding Mary were defined. It was not just the Latin American church but the whole Church pushing for. The Pope recieved millions of letters from Lay members all over the world asking him to make a descion on this. Not to mention that out of 2000 Bishops maybe like 10 dissented from defining the doctrine and out of those 10, 5 said they believed the Doctrine but felt the laiety wasn’t ready to have it defined. So it really was the whole Church declaring the Doctrine.

I suggest you get a catechism and go through it with your relative so he can understand the Catholics believes. Also, invite him Mass so he can see what actually happens there.

In the meantime please read these take from the Catechism regarding Mary to get you started. You will find the reference link below.

963 Since the Virgin Mary’s role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. “The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer. . . . She is ‘clearly the mother of the members of Christ’ . . . **since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head.” **“Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church.”

2674 Mary gave her consent in faith at the Annunciation and maintained it without hesitation at the foot of the Cross. Ever since, her motherhood has extended to the brothers and sisters of her Son “who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties.”** Jesus, the only mediator, is the way of our prayer; Mary, his mother and ours, is wholly transparent to him: she “shows the way” (hodigitria**), and is herself “the Sign” of the way, according to the traditional iconography of East and West.

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . .** flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer**; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”

ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/
 
Carlan said:
A relative (a Baptist believer) recently said to me that he has problems with Catholic veneration and worship of Mary.
He says the Bible does not back this up nor does history. That this is a teaching of men.
He claims this came to a head after World War 11 when the then Pope had the doctrine passed and was strongly backed by the South American Roman Catholic Church, the doctrine being, that ‘Mary is equal in standing with the Lord Jesus Christ and can be sought after for salvation.’

an
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challenge him to provide a Vatican source for this statement, in the exact wording he has given. He cannot, because it does not exist. The doctrine, which was not invented since had has been held since the first century, but was infallibly defined in the 1950s by Pope Pius XII, is the Assumption of the BVM. You can research it hear or on the CA homepage and get what the declaration actually said, not the deliberate and sometimes malicious mis-statements by detractors and attackers of the Church.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
He’s wrong.

No, Mary has NOT been put on the same level.

She is Queen of heaven as MOTHER of the King (Jesus) as per Jewish (Davidic) law and tradition and foretold in the Old Testament and proclaimed in the New (Revelation).

She is NOT a “Queen regnant”, that is, a queen who rules in her own right like Elizabeth the II of England. Rather, her status is that her Title comes from the actual kingship of her SON. There have been many monarchies where the ruler (usually male) is the crowned king and his wife has the title of queen but has status not in herself but in being ‘consort’ or in being ‘mother’ to the king. A little historical reading would give you an idea.

Pulling papal quotes out of nowhere, giving no context and perhaps not even correctly reporting what was actually said, proves nothing, so your friend needs to do his OWN work instead of trying to have you prove or disprove what he claims.

Tell him to go right to our catechism (easily found on line) and bring up where Mary is given equal status as god with Christ. That should stop him.
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Yes. I tell people with questions like this that even a casual glance at the Creed – the basic sum of what Catholics believe – shows this. Mary’s hardly gets a mention compared to Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Father, etc. But she is there and linked to the events of the NT.

However, while anti-Catholicism and genuine ignorance is the often basis for the “Catholics worship Mary” claim, I DO think some Catholics bear some responsibility for that misconception.

So I agree in this case–he needs to crack a book about Mariology (or even wiki it), especially if thinks he knows his facts.

But it’s not enough to tell people what they should do. Most of the time, their initial judgment of Catholicism will come from experience and casual exposure. And there’s no reason why a non-Catholic would, from casual exposure, know the difference between venerating Mary and worshiping God. Catholics need to be careful.
 
Traditionally, the veneration of the Virgin Mary is centered on Christ. Take for example the rosary, which uses prayers venerating Mary but focuses on the mysteries of the life of Christ. As the Mother of Christ, our Lord and Savior and God, she is the highest among the saints and is revered accordingly. Because she is full of grace (as we can gather from Gabriel’s salutation in Luke 1:28), she is capable of interceding for us on our behalf and aiding us with her prayers, but this all comes with the understanding that she is dispensing (for lack of a better term) the grace and glory of God through her intercession, not through any sort of innate power which she possesses. When one offers prayers to the Virgin Mary, it is with the explicit understanding that we are asking for her to intercede for us; we do not pray to her and worship her as if she were God.

As for the charge that the veneration of the Virgin Mary is not historic, that charge is false. To my knowledge, all apostolic branches of Christianity venerate the Virgin Mary (although I am unsure about the Assyrian Church of the East).
 
Maybe he was referring to the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, which was dogmatized in 1950? Either way he sounds very confused.
 
Carlan said:
A relative (a Baptist believer) recently said to me that he has problems with Catholic veneration and worship of Mary.
He says the Bible does not back this up nor does history. That this is a teaching of men.
He claims this came to a head after World War 11 when the then Pope had the doctrine passed and was strongly backed by the South American Roman Catholic Church, the doctrine being, that ‘Mary is equal in standing with the Lord Jesus Christ and can be sought after for salvation.’
Code: 
What is he talking about? The Pope getting this Doctrine passed?
It is beyond anything I know of !, that Mary is equal in standing with the Lord Jesus and can be sought after for salvation , this is doctrine?

Pope PiusX11 did say, “ Mary’s kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God ,as, nothing is excluded from her domain.”
Could this be what my relative is referring to when he claims what Catholic doctrine is saying, ‘Mary is equal in standing with Jesus and can be sought after for salvation’?

If anyone has heard this claim about Pope PiusX11 as being truth please post, thank you!
Peace, Carlan
Click to expand...
I don’t think this is a teaching of the Church… the Church has always taught that Mary is not equal to her Son, though we need to respect her and she has a great place in Heaven. But not equal. She is above the Angels and Saints but not God.

As for the quote by Pope Pius XII about Mary’s Kingdom, this just means that she is the Queen of Heaven and Jesus is the King, which is taken from Scripture about the “queen mother”. (the mother of the King is the Queen). So Jesus’ Kingdom is hers also. This does not make her equal. Everything she has is from grace, which is why we call her 'full of grace". While God, has no need of anything external.

God bless
 
Carlan,

I came across a Fundamentalist Baptist website that made all sorts of false claims about Catholicism. I sent the pastor the following e-mail:
Dear Pastor,
. . . .I am a conservative Anglican convert (I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church.) However, I am very familiar with Catholic doctrine. You have seriously misrepresented Catholicism in your comparison. Please review the following quotes from The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Catholics do not worship icons or statutes. Veneration does not equal “worship.”

1192 Sacred images in our churches and homes are intended to awaken and nourish our faith in the mystery of Christ. Through the icon of Christ and his works of salvation, it is he whom we adore. Through sacred images of the holy Mother of God, of the angels and of the saints, we venerate the persons represented. Link: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1192.htm

Catholics do not believe in “salvation by works.”

1067 “The wonderful works of God among the people of the Old Testament were but a prelude to the work of Christ the Lord in redeeming mankind and giving perfect glory to God. He accomplished this work principally by the Paschal mystery of his blessed Passion, Resurrection from the dead, and glorious Ascension, whereby ‘dying he destroyed our death, rising he restored our life.’ For it was from the side of Christ as he slept the sleep of death upon the cross that there came forth 'the wondrous sacrament of the whole Church.”’

For this reason, the Church celebrates in the liturgy above all the Paschal mystery by which Christ accomplished the work of our salvation. Link: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1067.htm

183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:16). Link: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/183.htm

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’” Link: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/161.htm

2044 The fidelity of the baptized is a primordial condition for the proclamation of the Gospel and for the Church’s mission in the world. In order that the message of salvation can show the power of its truth and radiance before men, it must be authenticated by the witness of the life of Christians. “The witness of a Christian life and good works done in a supernatural spirit have great power to draw men to the faith and to God.” Link: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2044.htm

1816 The disciple of Christ must not only keep the faith and live on it, but also profess it, confidently bear witness to it, and spread it: “All however must be prepared to confess Christ before men and to follow him along the way of the Cross, amidst the persecutions which the Church never lacks.” Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation: “So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.”
Link: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1816.htm

Catholics do not “re-sacrifice Christ” during Communion.

1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ’s Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present. “As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which ‘Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed’ is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out.”
Link: scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1364.htm

I’m not sure where you found these false claims regarding the Catholic Church. I would urge you to edit your comparision between Baptists and Roman Catholics to reflect the truth.

May the peace of the Lord be with you and your congregation. +
His response:
I too have extensively studied Roman Catholic doctrine. And yes, Catholics do indeed worship both statues and icons, as both of us already know. To bow before a statue is worship. Bowing down before a statue = worship (See Exodus 20). You can call it “veneration” if you wish, but it is still bowing down before a stature or idol, which is worship and which is strictly forbidden by God in the Bible

Yes, Roman Catholics do most definitely belief in salvation by works. You either belief in salvation by your own works or you do not. We believe in salvation by works - the work of Christ in the cross. You live in salvation by your own works, which is what we both mean by the term used “salvation by works”. Roman Catholics believe that the seven (Baptist have only two) sacraments (name removed by moderator)ut grace. Therefore they believe that their works are necessary for salvation. Of course Roman Catholics believe in the re-sacrifice of Christ during communion. That is the very definition of the Mass. This is what the wafer and goblet is when the bell is wrung. Ask any priest. Are you that ignorant of basic Roman Catholic doctrine?

So out of three complaints, you are wrong on all three. Sure, many New Evangelicals, all the way back to Billy Graham have been fooled by lying Roman Catholics, but I am not.I am a Fundamentalist Baptist. I believe what the Bible says… That is my authority.

Shame on you for trying to deceive a Baptist preacher! (Christ wrote down your wicked sin in His book and will read it out at the last Judgment. Be afraid. Be very afraid.)
This is the mindset you may be facing.
 
DJK100 said:
First of all, I don’t know about the quotes your relative is attributing to Pious XII. I suspect that he is inaccurately paraphrasing based upon a misunderstanding or is taking the quote out of context. I mean think about how we celebrate Mass. IF Mary were really equal to God wouldn’t we adjust the Mass accordingly to worship her. Have any Creeds been adjusted? Do we sit there and God the Father, Jesus his Son and The Holy Spirit and oh yes Mary thanks for giving us our salvation. No and for good reason because Mary is just a creature, a sinless one, but a creature like we all are not God and therefore cannot save us. That doesn’t mean that she cannot intercede (not mediate as that is for Jesus alone) for us and help bring us to Jesus and petition Jesus for us as an good mother would do.

*Your relative is also mistaken regading the about when the Doctrines regarding Mary were defined. It was not just the Latin American church but the whole Church pushing for. The Pope recieved millions of letters from Lay members all over the world asking him to make a descion on this. Not to mention that out of 2000 Bishops maybe like 10 dissented from defining the doctrine and out of those 10, 5 said they believed the Doctrine but felt the laiety wasn’t ready to have it defined. So it really was the whole Church declaring the Doctrine. *
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Thank you DJK and everyone for your responses.
DJK, noting my underlined paragraph, are you referring to the particular claim my relative made about Church doctrine ( being 'Mary is equal in standing with the Lord Jesus Christ and can be sought after for salvation.’) or are you speaking of Marian Doctrine in general?:confused: Thanks again, Peace, Carlan
 
Carlan said:
Thank you DJK and everyone for your responses.
DJK, noting my underlined paragraph, are you referring to the particular claim my relative made about Church doctrine ( being 'Mary is equal in standing with the Lord Jesus Christ and can be sought after for salvation.’) or are you speaking of Marian Doctrine in general?:confused: Thanks again, Peace, Carlan
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Both actually. Mary is not equal in standing with Jesus and is not sought after for salvation. She is asked to pray for us to her Son who brings about our salvation. As for the Marian Doctrine, my understanding is that it was the whole church pushing for the Pope to infallibly define already established knowledge and practice regarding Mary. My point was it wasn’t just the Latin American Churches. It was the entire church. I wrote that because it seemd like your uncle was saying the Church bowed to the pressure of a small Latin American contingent when actually that would be false. I will see if I can find a resource for you. It might take me some time to remember where I read that though.
 
"The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Fundamentalists claim that the doctrine was “invented” at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it.

"Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief. The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her. "
catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

This is not the quote I am looking for but gives you an idea of what I was saying. I will continue to look
 
Pope Pius XII taught that “Jesus Christ alone, God and man, is King in the full, proper, and absolute sense of the term. Mary also, in a restricted and only analogous way, shares in his royal dignity as the Mother of Christ who is God, as his associate in the work of Redemption, in his conflict with the enemy, and in his complete victory. From this association with Christ the King, she obtains a height of splendor unequaled in all creation.”(Pius XII, Ad Caeli Reginam, no. 25, in Four Marian Encyclicals, ed. E. R. Lawlor (New York: Paulist Press, 1959), 104.)

I think this might be the quote your relative is referring to. Notice that it does not say that Mary is equal to Jesus only that she works with Jesus, “as his associate in the work of Redemption.” Now I think we all would say, even your relative, that when we try to bring people to Christ we are working with Jesus towards their Redemption. Same thing with Mary, although she being Jesus’ mother, can do it much better than we can.
 
Pius XII notes in the apostolic constitution defining the Assumption: “In this pious striving, the faithful have been associated in a wonderful way with their own holy bishops, who have sent petitions of this kind, truly remarkable in number, to this See of Blessed Peter… petitions of this sort had already been addressed by the thousands from every part of the world and from every class of people.” (Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus, 1950)

Okay, Sorry everyone for all these post. Just when I think I am done I find another one. I will stop because I really can’t find the quote with all the numbers listed in it that I wanted. I think it was by Cardinal Newman but am unable to locate it.
 
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