Has Mary been put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and the Redeemer, Jesus?

[rbarcia]

Pope Pius XII taught that “Jesus Christ alone, God and man, is King in the full, proper, and absolute sense of the term. Mary also, in a restricted and only analogous way, shares in his royal dignity as the Mother of Christ who is God, as his associate in the work of Redemption, in his conflict with the enemy, and in his complete victory. From this association with Christ the King, she obtains a height of splendor unequaled in all creation.”(Pius XII, Ad Caeli Reginam, no. 25, in Four Marian Encyclicals, ed. E. R. Lawlor (New York: Paulist Press, 1959), 104.)

I think this might be the quote your relative is referring to. Notice that it does not say that Mary is equal to Jesus only that she works with Jesus, “as his associate in the work of Redemption.” Now I think we all would say, even your relative, that when we try to bring people to Christ we are working with Jesus towards their Redemption. Same thing with Mary, although she being Jesus’ mother, can do it much better than we can.

Can you give me a concrete example how Mary brings someone to Christ better than a relative. Not a doctrinal statement, just an example of that in practice today. I see examples of people like Paul spreading the gospel by telling people. I can understand how a relative can go and communicate the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a prson.

So how exactly does Mary bring someone to Christ. How do I contact her for her to do this for me?

 

[rbarcia]

"The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Fundamentalists claim that the doctrine was “invented” at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it.

"Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief. The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her. "
catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

This is not the quote I am looking for but gives you an idea of what I was saying. I will continue to look

Can you point me to actual example of this being taught in the early church?

 

[jam070406]

Can you point me to actual example of this being taught in the early church?

The book The Glories of Mary by St. Alphonus Ligouri has tons of insight and quotes by alot of Saints regarding Mary. He covers the IC as well. Highly recommended.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I am betting that he is referring to the title of Mary as “Co-Redemptrix, Co-Mediatrix”

 

[Carlan]

Can you give me a concrete example how Mary brings someone to Christ better than a relative. Not a doctrinal statement, just an example of that in practice today. I see examples of people like Paul spreading the gospel by telling people. I can understand how a relative can go and communicate the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a prson.

So how exactly does Mary bring someone to Christ. How do I contact her for her to do this for me?

Through her prayer and her powerful intersession as the mother of Jesus the, one, mediator to the Father.
While people here below can communicate the Good News to others it is the Father,who, through Jesus provides all the grace which leads to our believing in faith,to justification and eventually our salvation.
From Scripture remember the miracle at Cana, living proof of her power as the Mother of Jesus. Already reading material has been recomended, the is a ton to check outPeace, Carlan

 

[Carlan]

Pope Pius XII taught that “Jesus Christ alone, God and man, is King in the full, proper, and absolute sense of the term. Mary also, in a restricted and only analogous way, shares in his royal dignity as the Mother of Christ who is God, as his associate in the work of Redemption, in his conflict with the enemy, and in his complete victory. From this association with Christ the King, she obtains a height of splendor unequaled in all creation.”(Pius XII, Ad Caeli Reginam, no. 25, in Four Marian Encyclicals, ed. E. R. Lawlor (New York: Paulist Press, 1959), 104.)

I think this might be the quote your relative is referring to. Notice that it does not say that Mary is equal to Jesus only that she works with Jesus, “as his associate in the work of Redemption.” Now I think we all would say, even your relative, that when we try to bring people to Christ we are working with Jesus towards their Redemption. Same thing with Mary, although she being Jesus’ mother, can do it much better than we can.

:tiphat:Thank you heaps DJK, Peace, Carlan

 

[Carlan]

Can you give me a concrete example how Mary brings someone to Christ better than a relative. Not a doctrinal statement, just an example of that in practice today. I see examples of people like Paul spreading the gospel by telling people. I can understand how a relative can go and communicate the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a prson.

So how exactly does Mary bring someone to Christ. How do I contact her for her to do this for me?

Also Rbarcia, note this quote from DJK,
When we try to bring people to Christ we are working with Jesus towards their Redemption. Same thing with Mary, although she being Jesus’ mother, can do it much better than we can. Peace, Carlan

 

[GaryTaylor]

Can you give me a concrete example how Mary brings someone to Christ better than a relative

Bible?

Wedding of Cana

Today?

Mexico, Portugal are astounding examples which magnitude cannot be underestimated Converstion/Intercession. The conversion in Mexico = 9-million in 10-years. btw thats Baptism from morning till night for 10-years straight. Its called Divine Intervention.

Not a doctrinal statement, just an example of that in practice today. I see examples of people like Paul spreading the gospel by telling people

Again the very real Presence of Our Lady. I suppose one would actually have to believe in Supernatural. But then…you would have to believe in Supernatural to believe in God.

I can understand how a relative can go and communicate the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a prson.

So can I, I doubt it would have the impact that Our Lady would have appearing your room.

So how exactly does Mary bring someone to Christ. How do I contact her for her to do this for me?

Meditative/Contemplative prayer…The Holy Rosary, which is Christ centered. However “As you believe, So it will be”- Christ

Peace

 

[DJK100]

So how exactly does Mary bring someone to Christ. How do I contact her for her to do this for me?

SImple. Pray and ask for her help. I am sure you ask members of your congregation to pray for one another to interceed with one another if you will. Why not ask the Holy Mothers help in those prayers. Remember Mary is Jesus’ Mother so why wouldn’t Jesus, “Honor his Mother,” and give very serious consideration to a petition she is part of.

 

[TimothyH]

Can you give me a concrete example how Mary brings someone to Christ better than a relative. Not a doctrinal statement, just an example of that in practice today. I see examples of people like Paul spreading the gospel by telling people. I can understand how a relative can go and communicate the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a prson.

So how exactly does Mary bring someone to Christ. How do I contact her for her to do this for me?

If you are Christian and you have come to Christ, then you yourself are the example. It’s not so much that she brings you to Christ but that she brings Christ to you. This is because Christ came into creation through Mary.

Christ is the living bread which came down from heaven, and if Christ came down from heaven and became living bread, it was done so through Mary.

Christ is truth incarnate. Any truth that we have here as part of God’s creation, comes to us through Mary because Christ - truth himself - came to us through Mary.

Christ is the way and the life. Likewise, the way and the life - christ himself - come to us through Mary.

Christ’s body is the Church. Christ’s body came to us through Mary. The Church comes to us through Mary.

Grace, life, light, truth, virtue, salvation, the Gospel, the fullness of God’s revelation to man, and love itself… Love himself… Christ is all these things in the flesh, and Christ’s flesh came to us through Mary. Christ himself, and whatever he is and whatever he brings to you, comes to you through Mary.

Whether you know it or not, your own slavation, and every grace you have here on earth while you live, comes from Christ, through Mary, by the working of the Holy Spirit.

-Tim-

 

[DJK100]

Can you point me to actual example of this being taught in the early church?

This should get you started with the other readings listed by other posters. Enjoy!

catholic.com/library/Mary_Full_of_Grace.asp
catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

 

[Faithdancer]

Have you gotten into St. Alphonsus Ligouri’s The Glories Of Mary?

Thanks jam, I’ll put that on my list! I’m truly amazed at the amount of literature on Mary, I’m like a kid in a candy store in the study of Mariology!

 

[Faithdancer]

Pope Pius XII taught that “Jesus Christ alone, God and man, is King in the full, proper, and absolute sense of the term. Mary also, in a restricted and only analogous way, shares in his royal dignity as the Mother of Christ who is God, as his associate in the work of Redemption, in his conflict with the enemy, and in his complete victory. From this association with Christ the King, she obtains a height of splendor unequaled in all creation.”(Pius XII, Ad Caeli Reginam, no. 25, in Four Marian Encyclicals, ed. E. R. Lawlor (New York: Paulist Press, 1959), 104.)

I think this might be the quote your relative is referring to. Notice that it does not say that Mary is equal to Jesus only that she works with Jesus, “as his associate in the work of Redemption.” Now I think we all would say, even your relative, that when we try to bring people to Christ we are working with Jesus towards their Redemption. Same thing with Mary, although she being Jesus’ mother, can do it much better than we can.

Nicely stated, DJK. I think of it this way- Mary is right next to Our Lord and the Father, and who better to intercede for us than her? If anyone has God’s “ear” she does! That being said, right, she has no power except what is given her by the superabundance of Jesus Christ.

Lumen Gentium chapter 8 and the Catechism are, for our Mariology course at Holy Apostles, the “primary sources” so to speak. The language of the chapter on Mary in Lumen Gentium is so elevated, yet so deep, I think it must surely have been written entirely or in large part by Pope Benedict XVI when he was Cardinal, though perhaps it was Pope Paul VI exclusively- he was certainly no intellectual slouch. Anyway I’m grateful that for our course, we have it on audio. I’ve listened to it several times, read it several more times, and am just now beginning to partially understand it! The author(s) certainly trod an amazingly tricky path between Ecumenism on the one hand and ardent Marianism on the other.

I was told recently by a parish administrator that when nearly all of the cardinals voted in the reign of Pope Paul VI to curtail further entitlement of Mary, one of the cardinals who passionately lobbied to Pope Paul VI in Mary’s favor was the future Blessed John Paul II.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Assumption/Dormition reach very early to 4-AD. Ex-Catherdra proclaimation is from 1050’s. Dogmatically and infallibly defined by Pope Pius is his Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus.

But this is not placing the BVM on same level as Jesus Christ. There is a submission to the Holy Family. Which simly cannot be ignored.

Mary, Through the Centuries, you might want to read for a historic non bias perspective from all the Churchs.

However today as for some time now St Mary is considered the Gate of Heaven which She is in the Coptic Chruch nad Catholic. THe Mystical Body She is the Neck of the Mystical Body of Christ with of course Christ being the Head. The Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mother, She is also called their the Gate/Ark of the Covenant.

The Feast of the Dormition existed 4-AD Same idea as the Assumption.

14th century bought the approval at the Council of Basil of the Immaculate Conception which the Pope rejected. The Incarnation and work of St Athanasius and St Irenaeus went a long way in comprehension of the being of both Christ and St Mary.

“Oh noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin?” St Athanasius

St. Irenaeus 185-AD…the second century work Against Heresies (Lib. 5, 19, 1; 20, 2; 21,1: SC 153, 248-250. 260-264) shows that the Blessed Virgin Mary is truly the new Eve. It is used in the Roman Office of Readings for Friday in the Second Week of Advent.

"The Lord, coming into his own creation in visible form, was sustained by his own creation which he himself sustains in being. His obedience on the tree of the cross reversed the disobedience at the tree in Eden; the good news of the truth announced by an angel to Mary, a virgin subject to a husband, undid the evil lie that seduced Eve, a virgin espoused to a husband.

As Eve was seduced by the word of an angel and so fled from God after disobeying his word, Mary in her turn was given the good news by the word of an angel, and bore God in obedience to his word. As Eve was seduced into disobedience to God, so Mary was persuaded into obedience to God; thus the Virgin Mary became the advocate of the virgin Eve.

Christ gathered all things into one, by gathering them into himself. He declared war against our enemy, crushed him who at the beginning had taken us captive in Adam, and trampled on his head, in accordance with God’s words to the serpent in Genesis: I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall lie in wait for your head, and you shall lie in wait for his heel.

The one lying in wait for the serpent’s head is the one who was born in the likeness of Adam from the woman, the Virgin. This is the seed spoken of by Paul in the letter to the Galatians: The law of works was in force until the seed should come to whom the- promise was made.

He shows this even more clearly in the same letter when he says: When the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman. The enemy would not have been defeated fairly if his vanquisher had not been born of a woman, because it was through a woman that he had gained mastery over man in the beginning, and set himself up as man’s adversary.

That is why the Lord proclaims himself the Son of Man, the one who renews in himself that first man from whom the race born of woman was formed; as by a man’s defeat our race fell into the bondage of death, so by a man’s victory we were to rise again to life."

The Painting of Our Lady of Czestochowa was bought to Constantinople in 3-AD after Constantines mother seached Israel for artifacts of Christ. The Painting of the Annunciation was in the Byzantine Church in 2-AD.

How St Mary brings someone to Her Son as opposed to a relative? Do you have a relative who bore the Son of God? As a human, She has a something, no other human can claim

Read, St Loius de Montforts works also. You can google and read them on-line. The Secret of Mary, True Devoton to Mary

Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

Oops I meant 1950’s…“Ex-Catherdra proclaimation is from 1050’s. Dogmatically and infallibly defined by Pope Pius is his Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus.”

Sorry!

Peace