Has Pope Francis really said anything contrary to tradition?

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So far Pope Francis has made several off-the-cuff commments that the media has spun to suit their own agenda and cause some controversy (atheists go to Heaven, who am I to judge gay people, etc). Im trying to better undersrand the reasons for these comments, and I’d be very interested to hear other peoples opinions.

My question is this. In your opinion, do you think that Pope Francis did not intend for these comments to be controversial (ie. maybe he made a slip of the tongue, or maybe he misjudged the media)?

Or, do think that he made these comments intentionally, knowing that they would be controversial (ie. maybe he intended to be controversial because he believes it is beneficial to the Church in some way)? If you think that the comments were intentionally controversial, please also explain what you think his motivation for doing this might be.

I realize, of course, that none of us can know for sure, but Im interested to see what people think. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut 🙂
 
I think that in reality, he didn’t mean anything by them. To him, the answers he gave were straightforward answers to the questions asked.

Also, as Brother Jay said in another thread (and I’m paraphrasing); The Jesuits are trained to talk to the elite; they generally don’t need to explain themselves.

For us practicing Catholics, his points make sense. However, the audience he is speaking to often misunderstands them.
 
The media is just now discovering that Catholicism is not the same as fundamentalist Protestantism. They had no idea about our teachings on salvation, same-sex attractions, etc and they’re surprised to find religious people who appear to agree with them.

What’s new is that they’re actually listening now. Pope Francis has their attention and he’s teaching them the fullness of our faith. They need time to figure out the nuances. They’re already starting that process.
 
McCall1981 said:
So far Pope Francis has made several off-the-cuff commments that the media has spun to suit their own agenda and cause some controversy (atheists go to Heaven, who am I to judge gay people, etc). Im trying to better undersrand the reasons for these comments, and I’d be very interested to hear other peoples opinions.

My question is this. In your opinion, do you think that Pope Francis did not intend for these comments to be controversial (ie. maybe he made a slip of the tongue, or maybe he misjudged the media)?

Or, do think that he made these comments intentionally, knowing that they would be controversial (ie. maybe he intended to be controversial because he believes it is beneficial to the Church in some way)? If you think that the comments were intentionally controversial, please also explain what you think his motivation for doing this might be.

I realize, of course, that none of us can know for sure, but Im interested to see what people think. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut 🙂
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Why can we not just accept the fact that the Pope spoke what was in his heart, and if it became controversial it was because people made it that way because they either do not understand him, or have an agenda for misinterpreting him, or he is not living up to what they think he should be? Pope Francis does not appear to be a man who plays around with ideas and words and people’s minds just to spark some controversy. What would be the point?

He is who he is, and if people want to make him into something he is not, that is to their great detriment. He appears to be without guile and his example is one we could all benefit from. The only One who has the right to remake a man into their image is God.

How many of us would appreciate our every word being examined and our every action being criticized? I think Jesus said it best: “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?”
 
Domnall said:
I think that in reality, he didn’t mean anything by them. To him, the answers he gave were straightforward answers to the questions asked.

Also, as Brother Jay said in another thread (and I’m paraphrasing); The Jesuits are trained to talk to the elite; they generally don’t need to explain themselves.

For us practicing Catholics, his points make sense. However, the audience he is speaking to often misunderstands them.
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Agreed - but what also impresses me is he speaks without fear and with great love. It is this underlying duality that I believe is so startling and impressive to those who hear him and it is causing many to look beyond what they THINK they know about the church to what the church actually teaches. In other words - imho, it’s awesome!
 
CDB1718 said:
The media is just now discovering that Catholicism is not the same as fundamentalist Protestantism. They had no idea about our teachings on salvation, same-sex attractions, etc and they’re surprised to find religious people who appear to agree with them.

What’s new is that they’re actually listening now. Pope Francis has their attention and he’s teaching them the fullness of our faith. They need time to figure out the nuances. They’re already starting that process.
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CradleJourney said:
Agreed - but what also impresses me is he speaks without fear and with great love. It is this underlying duality that I believe is so startling and impressive to those who hear him and it is causing many to look beyond what they THINK they know about the church to what the church actually teaches. In other words - imho, it’s awesome!
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I think both of you explained it quite well 😃
 
IMO the Pope knows very well what he is doing and saying. If you look at his biography, you’ll see that in a way he is a career politician, used to negotiate carefully and to fight with people much more powerful than him. And he knows the media very well (the Argentinean press is very harsh and very blunt and it can be pretty tabloid).

Some Traditionalists think that he is focused on attacking them at every turn; some liberal Catholics think that his focus is on pure marketing - to make the “harshness” of his predecessors a little more palatable; some non-Catholics think that he is the man who will change all the teachings of the Church that they don’t like. But controversy for the sake of controversy is not his goal; he’s trying to put again the correct emphases on the same old teachings, wherever they are buried under layers of theoretical excesses and practical deviations. What are these excesses and deviations? He said it and repeated it: coldness and isolation of clergy, elitism of people who tend towards a vague “spirituality” without Jesus, excessive intellectualizing of the faith, materialism, egoism and individualism, rigidity of “sour-faced saints”, fear of living our lives as Jesus’ apostles, superficial human relationships governed only by efficiency and pragmatism, lack of charity and care for the children and the elders, for the poor and the non-Catholics. It’s his duty as a pope to say this.
 
As a student of the Jesuits and a relatively young lifelong catholic, I am refreshed to see our Pope making these statements, because they are now on the table, and people, especially the media, are challenged and INTERESTED, and therefore are starting to pique curiosity, in a very healthy way. No, he is not challenging the Church by any means…who is he challenging? Anyone who wants to seek the truth and find the real meaning, which is what the richness of our faith has to offer.
 
The Oregon Catholic Sentinel carried an article from Catholic News Service, and I will quote parts (sorry, I don’t have access to it online):

“Many Catholics who identify themselves as either conservatives or progressives will be disappointed in Pope Francis, whose program of spiritual renewal, doctrinal continuity and emphasis on the poor fits none of the traditional molds, a top German cardinal says.”

“Cardinal Walter Kaspar, a theologian and retired president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, aid Pope Francis will face resistance within the curia,which needs both organizational revamping and a change of mentality.”

…"Cardinal Kaspar said “it’s not possible to pigenhole (the pope) in the classic European conservative-progressive debate’ which is already a ‘worn out’ framework that has run its course.”

“‘Many people are enthusiastic about him: He is a true pastor; he has great charm, a irect approach with people’ and speaks in a manner that is upfront and understandable, Cardinal Kaspar said”.

From what I ahve seen so far, his style is very outgoing and approachable; he has given his guards fits and starts repeatedly. He appears to have no fear or trepidation in speaking with the press. As noted above, he is a Jesuit of long standing, and doesn’t need to explain himself. Nothing he has said so far has any indication whatsoever other than that he speaks the truth of the Church. He may not give a long-winded exposition of a subject (e.g. he was recently quoted both about homosexuals and about women). And the press may try to twist whatever he says to fit either their agenda, or their perception of him. That is not going to stop him.

On the flight back to Rome he is shown standing in the isle of the plane as a journalist asks him questions. One of the questions was about the possiblity of ordaining women priests: his answer “the church has spoken and said no”; and then he says further: “It is not enough to have altar girls, women readers or women as president of Caritas. Women in the church are more important than bishops and priests” just like “Mary is more important than the Apostles.”

I can guarantee that is going to upset some conservatives. And his rapid fire baack of “No” on women priests is going to upset some progressives, particularly as time goes by and they (who are generally older) grow thinner in ranks and come to realize the Church simply is not budging - it was not a matter of "getting another pope who “understands”.

Not long after he was elected pope, I said he was going to upset a lot of apple carts. I maintain the same position. Benedict was a scholar’s scholar; JP 2 had two PhDs and had been a professor. This one is a Jesuit, a very bright individual, but not of the scholar’s mold. He is far more a people’s person.

He was well known at lest to a significant number of the other Cardinals; they clearly know who they were choosing.
 
I personally think he has done a great thing by showing Christ’s mercy extends to all including those that don’t believe in him because as catholics we know better than everyone else Christ died for ALL of us and his mercy is almighty and INFINITE meaning his love is never ending and he will never stop loving and forgiving us. Christ’s mercy is so infinite he will forgive even those who reject him infact the first pope of our church rejected Christ not once but Three times. It shows me we make mistakes and yeah they can and will be forgiven. And the fact he recently said he will not reject Gays made me very happy because Christ accepted all he is infinitely loving and forgiving and merciful infact his very close friend was basically scum to society at the time she sold her body for people to use for sex and Christ accepted her and told the public he who is sinless may throw the first stone this friend is the sanctified and holy saint Mary magdalen. She was very close to Christ and like The gays they are casted out by most Christians but why is it Christ’s way to cast someone out but to accept them and love them and not judge them. Brothers and sisters I know what it says in Leviticus 20:13 but in the bible it also gives us many commandments and tells us of many sins but Christ doesn’t reject you for your sins but love you more and more each nano second of the day if Christ were still alive today he wouldn’t cast us out for our sins but welcome us and teach us the error of our ways. Brothers and sisters I encourage you be merciful and accepting follow our Good lords example. Listen to this pope he is a great man and I personally think is on his way to sainthood. Thank you all I love you all and as always God bless.
 
I also perceive in Francis, (and this is kind of a vague, intuitive perception on my part so if you don’t think it fits just take it with a grain of salt) a Latin-American spiritual perspective, if you will.

In recent years I have become close friends with an elderly Mexican lady who is very devout and also very open and loving. She is obedient to the Church but also able to love anyone without prejudice or preconceptions. I, being of mainly German heritage, have a spirituality probably more like John Paul II and Benedict XVI - I’m more about “Make sure people know what the rules are and follow them!” But it’s not so that I can go around making people feel bad about themselves, I just know the virtue of learning obedience . . .

. . . however, Catholicism is catholic. Universal. So it’s good for us to have our perspectives widened. And I believe this is part of what drives Francis.

It would certainly be nice if the media wouldn’t “pounce” like vultures and assume they know where the Holy Father is going with this or that statement he makes. But we might as well wish we could flap our arms and fly to the Moon! :rolleyes: The media will do what the media will do. See my “Pope Francis sneezes” thread in Back Fence for a humorous take if you want to. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=777396

Now I admit that I’m caught off guard as well by some of the statements - but it does challenge me to think, wait a minute, is Pope Francis really saying anything that isn’t in the Catechism or the Bible or at least implied there if we think about it? Since he is so direct, he is going to be speaking from the heart more - but the head is there too.

I don’t want to get any further than that into armchair quarterbacking the Holy Father, so I’ll stop for now! 🙂
 
My feeling is that the issue here isn’t with Pope Francis, it is with the faithful. The Church has become splintered by ideology. Each group within the Church picking those teachings that fit their ideology. Each group wants to believe that the Pope is on their side. Francis like any Pope has to embody the fullness of the faith which isn’t part of any one ideology. The same could be said of his predecessors, but circumstances prevented us from seeing them that way. Now due in no small part to the actions of B16 and JP2, Francis get to be seen that way and his style and personality enhances the effect. Pope Francis is challenging the faithful to drop their ideologies and be the disciples of Jesus and follow the fullness of the Catholic faith, or we just be bitter.
 
3DOCTORS said:
I also perceive in Francis, (and this is kind of a vague, intuitive perception on my part so if you don’t think it fits just take it with a grain of salt) a Latin-American spiritual perspective, if you will.

In recent years I have become close friends with an elderly Mexican lady who is very devout and also very open and loving. She is obedient to the Church but also able to love anyone without prejudice or preconceptions. I, being of mainly German heritage, have a spirituality probably more like John Paul II and Benedict XVI - I’m more about “Make sure people know what the rules are and follow them!” But it’s not so that I can go around making people feel bad about themselves, I just know the virtue of learning obedience . . .

. . . however, Catholicism is catholic. Universal. So it’s good for us to have our perspectives widened. And I believe this is part of what drives Francis.

It would certainly be nice if the media wouldn’t “pounce” like vultures and assume they know where the Holy Father is going with this or that statement he makes. But we might as well wish we could flap our arms and fly to the Moon! :rolleyes: The media will do what the media will do. See my “Pope Francis sneezes” thread in Back Fence for a humorous take if you want to. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=777396

Now I admit that I’m caught off guard as well by some of the statements - but it does challenge me to think, wait a minute, is Pope Francis really saying anything that isn’t in the Catechism or the Bible or at least implied there if we think about it? Since he is so direct, he is going to be speaking from the heart more - but the head is there too.

I don’t want to get any further than that into armchair quarterbacking the Holy Father, so I’ll stop for now! 🙂
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The US in particular takes a Germanic approach to law. REad the Gospels, and Christ wasn’t getting into controversies over COTT vs. CITH. He was adamant about the poor.

I don’t think it can be said that this Pope doesn’t care about the rules; but for sure they are not going to be his fixation. And from everything I have read about what he had to say when he was a cardinal - in particular to other bishops, this is not some new theme.
 
This wonderful Pope is a Jesuit. Now, finally, the world, and millions of Catholics, are just beginning to get exposure to this Order. Those college students that attend Jesuit colleges like Holy Cross, Boston College, etcetera, know just how special these priests are. They are extremely intellectual and possess a deep understanding of life’s purpose. The College of Cardinals had feared electing a Jesuit Pope. God has truly placed His hand on the selection of Francis as our Holy Father. Do not listen to just his words but the deeper meaning within those words. He possesses no Army, no voting power, no nuclear weapons, no countries borders, no threats of retribution if not followed or agreed with. His purpose is to bring mankind to understand that love and only love can save mankind. Love through our actions of faith, hope and charity. Love begets love and evil begets evil. Be not afraid of evil for deep down within its own self is cowardice. Love is eternal, evil destroys even itself. “GIVE AND FORGIVE”.
 
the audience he is speaking to often misunderstands them
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And we have two extra filters to go through before it reaches CAF: translation from Portuguese (by the media) and then sensationalist reporting (again by the media). For any given moral issue Francis talks about, some reporter will find a way to spin it in to Pope Francis supposedly changing Church teaching.
 
CB_Catholic said:
Why can we not just accept the fact that the Pope spoke what was in his heart, and if it became controversial it was because people made it that way because they either do not understand him, or have an agenda for misinterpreting him, or he is not living up to what they think he should be? Pope Francis does not appear to be a man who plays around with ideas and words and people’s minds just to spark some controversy. What would be the point?

He is who he is, and if people want to make him into something he is not, that is to their great detriment. He appears to be without guile and his example is one we could all benefit from. The only One who has the right to remake a man into their image is God.

How many of us would appreciate our every word being examined and our every action being criticized? I think Jesus said it best: “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you?”
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“Everyone is redeemed, including atheists! Yes, atheists too!”

“If a person is gay and seeks after the Lord, who am I to judge them?”

Tell me, friend, can anyone, even a Catholic, possibly be blamed for misinterpreting these comments? Especially when he does not follow up with them afterward and explain what he meant. Sure, Catholics have a different understanding of what it means to be “redeemed” and they also separate “being gay” from actually engaging in homosexual acts, not to mention that Catholicism generally frowns upon using the word “gay” since in its modern connotation it refers not only to an attraction to the same sex but also an active homosexual lifestyle. In our world the two are virtually inseparable. So no, I’m not among the many Catholics who say “Silly media, where did you get that crazy idea” because even to me, a knowledgeable Catholic, the language definitely sounds surprisingly liberal and I can’t blame anyone for interpreting it that way.
 
CompSciGuy said:
“Everyone is redeemed, including atheists! Yes, atheists too!”

“If a person is gay and seeks after the Lord, who am I to judge them?”

Tell me, friend, can anyone, even a Catholic, possibly be blamed for misinterpreting these comments? Especially when he does not follow up with them afterward and explain what he meant. Sure, Catholics have a different understanding of what it means to be “redeemed” and they also separate “being gay” from actually engaging in homosexual acts, not to mention that Catholicism generally frowns upon using the word “gay” since in its modern connotation it refers not only to an attraction to the same sex but also an active homosexual lifestyle. In our world the two are virtually inseparable. So no, I’m not among the many Catholics who say “Silly media, where did you get that crazy idea” because even to me, a knowledgeable Catholic, the language definitely sounds surprisingly liberal and I can’t blame anyone for interpreting it that way.
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I think your post just proved my point. God bless.
 
McCall1981 said:
My question is this. In your opinion, do you think that Pope Francis did not intend for these comments to be controversial (ie. maybe he made a slip of the tongue, or maybe he misjudged the media)?

Or, do think that he made these comments intentionally, knowing that they would be controversial (ie. maybe he intended to be controversial because he believes it is beneficial to the Church in some way)?
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I think he’s playing the secular media like a master plays a Stradivarius.
 
If something that I say is misunderstood or misconstrued, I always make it my responsibility to clarify and address the misunderstandings. This is not an unreasonable thing to do.
 
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