Has Pope Francis really said anything contrary to tradition?

[Alindawyl]

“Everyone is redeemed, including atheists! Yes, atheists too!”

“If a person is gay and seeks after the Lord, who am I to judge them?”

Tell me, friend, can anyone, even a Catholic, possibly be blamed for misinterpreting these comments? Especially when he does not follow up with them afterward and explain what he meant.

There’s no need for him to follow up and explain anything because he didn’t say those things in a vacuum. He already provided the explanation at the time he said them. They were a small sentence or two within a much larger statement.

The context of the larger statement was ignored when it was initially said in favor of whatever mileage they could get from taking a piece of it and framing it within a different context. The only reason repeating himself would matter is if he had been misunderstood initially. But he was not misunderstood. They understood exactly what he said because they had the whole thing recorded, and yet they chose to only run with a very specific part of it as the headline. If he repeats himself then they’ll just do the same thing again, because neither his words nor their hearts will be any different today than they were a week ago.

 

[EasterJoy]

There’s no need for him to follow up and explain anything because he didn’t say those things in a vacuum. He already provided the explanation at the time he said them. They were a small sentence or two within a much larger statement…

This is very sensible, but it is my impression that Pope Benedict XVI at least did not find it to be true. His comments were expertly crafted to fit in their contexts like a gemstone in a Tiffany setting, but unfortunately that is not how they were always passed on by the media. There were some times where statements had to be made to clear up the distortions introduced by taking the statements away from their full original context.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think he’s playing the secular media like a master plays a Stradivarius.

I don’t think he has such a fine instrument to work with as that! He is doing far better than might reasonably be expected with a recalcitrant instrument, though, I agree to that!

 

[3DOCTORS]

I don’t think he has such a fine instrument to work with as that! He is doing far better than might reasonably be expected with a recalcitrant instrument, though, I agree to that!

Like a 4th-grade orchestra’s spare violin that’s been discovered in an storeroom without climate control after decades, and spiders have nested in it. Maybe even mice. Screeeech! :frighten:

 

[otjm]

“Everyone is redeemed, including atheists! Yes, atheists too!”

“If a person is gay and seeks after the Lord, who am I to judge them?”

Tell me, friend, can anyone, even a Catholic, possibly be blamed for misinterpreting these comments? Especially when he does not follow up with them afterward and explain what he meant. Sure, Catholics have a different understanding of what it means to be “redeemed” and they also separate “being gay” from actually engaging in homosexual acts, not to mention that Catholicism generally frowns upon using the word “gay” since in its modern connotation it refers not only to an attraction to the same sex but also an active homosexual lifestyle. In our world the two are virtually inseparable. So no, I’m not among the many Catholics who say “Silly media, where did you get that crazy idea” because even to me, a knowledgeable Catholic, the language definitely sounds surprisingly liberal and I can’t blame anyone for interpreting it that way.

 

[otjm]

“Everyone is redeemed, including atheists! Yes, atheists too!”

“If a person is gay and seeks after the Lord, who am I to judge them?”

Tell me, friend, can anyone, even a Catholic, possibly be blamed for misinterpreting these comments? Especially when he does not follow up with them afterward and explain what he meant. Sure, Catholics have a different understanding of what it means to be “redeemed” and they also separate “being gay” from actually engaging in homosexual acts, not to mention that Catholicism generally frowns upon using the word “gay” since in its modern connotation it refers not only to an attraction to the same sex but also an active homosexual lifestyle. In our world the two are virtually inseparable. So no, I’m not among the many Catholics who say “Silly media, where did you get that crazy idea” because even to me, a knowledgeable Catholic, the language definitely sounds surprisingly liberal and I can’t blame anyone for interpreting it that way.

To begin with, it helps to read the entire story that the reporter wrote concerning the quotes which are taken out of context.

Secondly, as far as I can see, he has said nothing that is not within Catholic teaching. In part, because I read the stories; not someone’s abstraction from the story. and in part, because I either have studied what the Church has said in the past on such matters, of if I question the statement, I do so before speaking publicly.

That, and I was trained by Jesuits, so I have at least a minimal clue as to how many of them speak (they are, after all, individuals, and not automatons).

Part of the issue is that he seems to be far more accessible to the press than, say, Benedict was. Add to that the fact that Benedict was a scholar and a teacher - and those folks have a natural tendency to teach - and Francis is not - he is a pastor first and foremost - and he will respond to the press differently than his predecessors. He has had his go-rounds with the press and the government in Argentina; he is no fool, and certainly not naive as to how the press operates. And I seriously doubt he will change his style.

I get the feeling some people out there are looking for things with which to categorize him (and in particular, to categorize him as "not one of them). See my prior post as to what Cardinal Kaspar had to say about him. Conservatives (particularly those towards the “very” end of the spectrum) are not going to like him at a minimum; some will attempt at each and every turn to categorize him as a “progressive” in the minimum. That, he is not. But they will not get it, because their minds are already made up and their world view tends toward “us and them”. As in, if you are not part of our group, at best you are suspect.

One can always pull a statement out of context - and both ends of the political spectrum are past masters at the trick. It is also exceedingly dishonest. But then, those who do so are not trying to be honest; they are polemical. And polemics as they practice it is not designed for seeking truth; it is designed for winning arguments.

 

[McCall1981]

I think he said exactly what he meant to say.
I don’t think he meant to be controversial. He spoke from the heart.
The media didn’t change his quotes or twist them.
And he did speak the truth: Atheists can indeed go to heaven…he doesn’t judge gay people…etc.
As noted by many, nothing he said goes against the church.

Why do you think his quotes were controversial?

.

Because of headlines like “Pope says its ok to be gay” etc. Things like that have been all over the media for some time now. Im not saying he has said anything that violates Church teaching (he hasnt), but he has made several comments that were phrased in such a way that it was extremely easy for the media to (intentionally) misrepresent what he said.

In other words, these quotes were just begging to be misused by the media to send a false, misleading message. My question is why would he make it so very easy for the media to do this? Are these “controversial” comments unintentional slip ups, or are they an intentional part of his plan?

 

[YoungTradCath]

I am wondering if some potential converts are being set up for “failure.” For example, they hear this and that, they get excited and sort of high about it, then they come to a RCIA meeting and are given a Catechism (hopefully…) and then become deflated.

Then again that is possible no matter what a Pope says; teaching is teaching. However, I also think getting people worked up about something that’s never going to happen–a change in the Church’s teaching on sexuality–and that is exactly what is happening, regardless of intention people are getting worked up about it, is only setting people up for failure. Once this popular party time is over, and it will be eventually, some people are liable to feel like the Pope is toying with them or is secretly saying, “Joke’s on you buddy!” I’ve already detected the beginning of this with one of Jamie Manson’s latest articles on NCReporter. Yes, it’s an awful publication, but I like to monitor their writers’ views.

Yes yes yes a thousand times, I know what the Pope says, I know what he means, but regardless of that, the vast majority of people don’t, and it is not good for people to have to constantly go around and write a million blog posts explaining the Pope’s latest words or whatever. I can think of two times this happened when BXVI was Pope: Regensburg and his comment about subjective goodness/unsinfulness/tendency toward spiritual maturity in a person who has HIV who uses a condom. In the first case people were mad, in the latter case people were elated, but then deflated. But my point is, it was not left up to Catholic bloggers and apologetics apostolates to constantly quell some surge of misunderstanding, because there usually wasn’t misunderstanding. However, now, it is almost like a game when I get on my computer, wondering when the next “Papal revelation” is going to happen.

I am not concerned that I am going to misunderstand it, although I admit it is odd to hear these things sometimes. I am concerned because a lot of other people are misunderstanding it.

 

[Brendan_64]

There is nothing in what the Pope said that is at odds with the established teachings of our Church.

Yes atheists are redeemed, and can achieve Salvation. Gaudium et Spes made it very clear that, “All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way”. As for the not judging a person, any person, who seeks after the Lord, that’s very basic Catholic teaching.

In the light of Church teaching, there is nothing controversial in what the Pope said, he was simply stating the facts as they are. The problem arises when people extrapolate beyond what the Pope said, and start to speculate on what he really meant, and go beyond what he actually said. He meant what he said, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Pastoral as opposed to Doctrinal, and the prior coincides with the later. Pope Francis is a refreshing change since V-II.

People have an agenda and wish their own understanding of statements to be true, be it they lean toward a gay agenda or argue against it for example. The teaching remains the same.

 

[YoungTradCath]

There is nothing in what the Pope said that is at odds with the established teachings of our Church.

Yes atheists are redeemed, and can achieve Salvation. Gaudium et Spes made it very clear that, “All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way”. As for the not judging a person, any person, who seeks after the Lord, that’s very basic Catholic teaching.

In the light of Church teaching, there is nothing controversial in what the Pope said, he was simply stating the facts as they are. The problem arises when people extrapolate beyond what the Pope said, and start to speculate on what he really meant, and go beyond what he actually said. He meant what he said, nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, but like I said, it doesn’t matter (for the purposes of this thread) what is being said. I don’t contest the validity of that. What matters in a subjective sense is what people are receiving. I can say A all day, but if you hear B, then you hear B. Now, I would say that if I were in such a situation, I would change my tactics and say it in a different way while still preserving the substance and the general spirit of what I am trying to say. I will not give the Pope suggestions; perhaps there is some reason he is doing what he is doing, but I just can’t see it. Now, the subjective reception of the information does matter. If people think and expect there to be some imminent change in Church teaching, then for them, that is absolute reality. Furthermore, more insidiously, they will act as if that is going to happen, even if it hasn’t (and won’t). You cannot change that except by ripping them off their clouds of “hope.”

I expect this confusion will all end in one of these ways, the latter, or, more likely, a combination of both:

1. The Pope will speak differently. I’m not offering suggestions, so don’t report me for being “disrespectful” or something.
2. Enough time will pass with no change in Church teaching that people on their cloud nines right now will just realize it ain’t happening. Imho that could foster resentment.

2 will happen, that is clear. 1 might happen.

 

[Zooey]

First,before I “speak” let me remind you all who I am— Zooey, your Friendly Neighborhood Methodist.
OK: comments appended to posts to which I want to respond [added bolding mine]:

Agreed - but what also impresses me is he speaks without fear and with great love. It is this underlying duality that I believe is so startling and impressive to those who hear him and it is causing many to look beyond what they THINK they know about the church to what the church actually teaches. In other words - imho, it’s awesome!

Just that:

There is nothing in what the Pope said that is at odds with the established teachings of our Church.

Yes atheists are redeemed, and can achieve Salvation. Gaudium et Spes made it very clear that, “All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way”.

Hah!! Good; I was hoping & praying that someone would hear what I heard: Pope Francis was referring to the distinction between redemption ans salvation. Which distinction is so rarely mentioned by anyone on either side of the Tiber, that I wanted to cheer just for the fact that it was there.

As for the not judging a person, any person, who seeks after the Lord, that’s very basic Catholic teaching.

In the light of Church teaching, there is nothing controversial in what the Pope said, he was simply stating the facts as they are. The problem arises when people extrapolate beyond what the Pope said, and start to speculate on what he really meant, and go beyond what he actually said. He meant what he said, nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, and very Methodist teaching too. Very anybody-Christian-regardless-of-labels Christian teaching…Except when was the last time we have all heard someone pointing that out? Because there is such a chorus of screaming voices who are forever judging somebody…anybody…everybody, at least every 15 to 20 minutes, that it was refreshing to hear Pope Francis point out that we are told to NOT judge. Again:. Just that…again!!:

I like him. I like him a lot.
In case nobody had guessed that…

 

[josh987654321]

So far Pope Francis has made several off-the-cuff commments that the media has spun to suit their own agenda and cause some controversy (atheists go to Heaven, who am I to judge gay people, etc). Im trying to better undersrand the reasons for these comments, and I’d be very interested to hear other peoples opinions.

My question is this. In your opinion, do you think that Pope Francis did not intend for these comments to be controversial (ie. maybe he made a slip of the tongue, or maybe he misjudged the media)?

Or, do think that he made these comments intentionally, knowing that they would be controversial (ie. maybe he intended to be controversial because he believes it is beneficial to the Church in some way)? If you think that the comments were intentionally controversial, please also explain what you think his motivation for doing this might be.

I realize, of course, that none of us can know for sure, but Im interested to see what people think. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut

I don’t think they were a slip of the tongue, or supposed to be overly controversial, as the media has spun it to suit their own agenda as you said, however I do think they are designed to be slightly controversial and I think this is why -

For example, when he say’s “Atheists are redeemed” many people thought, “What? is the Pope saying Athiests are going to heaven? What does he mean?.” in which than they will want to know what the Catholic Church teaches and will look to the CCC and find the difference between salvation and redemption and hopefully learn more about the Cathoic Church and why it teaches what it does.

Also when he say’s “Who am I to Judge Gay people?” They will hopefully want to find the Churches teachings on homosexuality in the CCC, which does not condemn homosexuals as many think, rather it speaks against the sexual acts of homosexuality and hopefully they will learn and understand why.

I think his comments are really good because it will place more emphasis on the Universal (Catholic) Church, of an inclusive and welcoming Church (of a father who loves and shows mercy towards all his children) rather than their misconception of an exclusive and condemning Church.

Therefore hopefully his comments will “shock” some people into wanting to find out what the Catholic Church actually teaches (CCC) rather than what they think the Catholic Church teaches.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Brendan_64]

I will not give the Pope suggestions; perhaps there is some reason he is doing what he is doing, but I just can’t see it.

Perhaps he is sending a message that the Catholic Church is not a negative, critical, exclusive, judgmental Church, but a positive, welcoming, inclusive, charitable and non-judgmental Church?

Now you know that, I know that, but a great many people out there (led by the media) view us in a very negative light and see us as exclusive, judgmental and uncharitable. Perhaps Pope Francis was simply stating our Church teaching in a way that presents us as what we really are?

If some within our Church view this as a sign that Church Teaching (with regard to homosexual acts) will change, then they are very much mistaken, but nor will the Church’s Teaching regarding charity and acceptance of homosexual people within the Church. change either. However Church disciplines can and do change and I think Pope Francis was also highlighting the fact that certain changes in discipline (female altar servers, lectors etc) are here to stay and the role of women within the Church may be extended, but Teaching will not change, therefore no women priests, ever.

 

[Brendan_64]

I like him. I like him a lot.
In case nobody had guessed that…

Good to hear it.

Next we’ll have you sneaking candles into your church and lighting them.

 

[Brendan_64]

I think his comments are really good because it will place more emphasis on the Universal (Catholic) Church, of an inclusive and welcoming Church (of a father who loves and shows mercy towards all his children) rather than their misconception of an exclusive and condemning Church.

 

[CDB1718]

https://sphotos-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1013664_533417683373470_199042232_n.jpg

 

[GaryTaylor]

So its more like, I’m not sure what you thought you heard, as opposed to what in fact was stated. Talk about selective hearing. I believe he spoke to the media for 2-hrs, the take on that was a 1-minute segment with spin on it.

As to what good all this does the Church? I would argue I haven’t seen anyone in a few short months that I remember have this type of impact, and outside of Catholicism.

 

[pbbp14]

The pope was honest, media made it sound controversial. For example, on the remark he nada about homosexuals, the media cut the first part of the phrase which was that of they were seeking the mercy of God. Remember that media tries to manipulate the information that comes to our tvs so as a catholic we must seek the whole truth like we always just do
God bless

 

[Boulder257]

So its more like, I’m not sure what you thought you heard, as opposed to what in fact was stated. Talk about selective hearing. I believe he spoke to the media for 2-hrs, the take on that was a 1-minute segment with spin on it.

As to what good all this does the Church? I would argue I haven’t seen anyone in a few short months that I remember have this type of impact, and outside of Catholicism.

This is what bothers me the most about it. I would like to know what he said for the other 119 minutes as well. Why has the media only focused on this one sentence and even taken it out of context…well, I guess I know the answer to that question. But, I would love to hear the entire 2 hour Q&A.