Has Pope Francis really said anything contrary to tradition?

[sennincatholic]

“Everyone is redeemed, including atheists! Yes, atheists too!”

“If a person is gay and seeks after the Lord, who am I to judge them?”

Tell me, friend, can anyone, even a Catholic, possibly be blamed for misinterpreting these comments? Especially when he does not follow up with them afterward and explain what he meant. Sure, Catholics have a different understanding of what it means to be “redeemed” and they also separate “being gay” from actually engaging in homosexual acts, not to mention that Catholicism generally frowns upon using the word “gay” since in its modern connotation it refers not only to an attraction to the same sex but also an active homosexual lifestyle. In our world the two are virtually inseparable. So no, I’m not among the many Catholics who say “Silly media, where did you get that crazy idea” because even to me, a knowledgeable Catholic, the language definitely sounds surprisingly liberal and I can’t blame anyone for interpreting it that way.

 

[sennincatholic]

“Everyone is redeemed, including atheists! Yes, atheists too!”

“If a person is gay and seeks after the Lord, who am I to judge them?”

Tell me, friend, can anyone, even a Catholic, possibly be blamed for misinterpreting these comments? Especially when he does not follow up with them afterward and explain what he meant. Sure, Catholics have a different understanding of what it means to be “redeemed” and they also separate “being gay” from actually engaging in homosexual acts, not to mention that Catholicism generally frowns upon using the word “gay” since in its modern connotation it refers not only to an attraction to the same sex but also an active homosexual lifestyle. In our world the two are virtually inseparable. So no, I’m not among the many Catholics who say “Silly media, where did you get that crazy idea” because even to me, a knowledgeable Catholic, the language definitely sounds surprisingly liberal and I can’t blame anyone for interpreting it that way.

He didnt make this statements in English originally,but in Italian or portuguese i think.So if you find terms like “gay” in the english translation disturbing,at least try to find out exactly what he said in the original language he spoke.If you ignore these “nuances” and rush into conclusions about the pope taking him out of context,then,my friend,you are not different from any other “secular” person who will choose to inteprete the pope’s words in ways which suit his/her agenda

 

[kag1982]

No reason to blame this on me. I stated that by the looks of it, some of the more traditionalist Catholics seem to have some issues with Pope Francis. Maybe they’re the ones who are pigeonholing. Just go to fisheaters and take a look.

Agreed. Some traditionalists don’t like Pope Francis at all. There has even been some odd criticism on more mainstream right Catholic blogs. Father Z has developed an odd fixation on Pope Francis’ car choices.

And Francis did use the English word “gay” despite the fact that he was answering an Italian reporter in Italian. Apparently, Italians just use the English word. In contrast with his last two predecessors, Francis has an informal way of speaking. He uses Argentine idioms and common street terminology. I think that this is one reason he seems so relatable.

 

[StudentMI]

catholicmemes.com/joker-2/selective-hearing/

 

[Brendan_64]

Agreed. Some traditionalists don’t like Pope Francis at all. There has even been some odd criticism on more mainstream right Catholic blogs. Father Z has developed an odd fixation on Pope Francis’ car choices.

I find it bewildering that some posters on Father Z’s site seem to get rather upset that the pope has chosen to be driven around in a Fiat. I can see why some people might view his choice of car as not being of particular importance, but why would anyone get upset that he isn’t being driven around in a BMW? I wonder is it because some people don’t like the idea that the pope is being driven around in a car that is of less monetary value than the one they the,selves drive? Or is it a message that we all ought to strive to be less attached to material possessions and luxury items, that they don’t like?

 

[robwar]

So far Pope Francis has made several off-the-cuff commments that the media has spun to suit their own agenda and cause some controversy (atheists go to Heaven, who am I to judge gay people, etc). Im trying to better undersrand the reasons for these comments, and I’d be very interested to hear other peoples opinions.

My question is this. In your opinion, do you think that Pope Francis did not intend for these comments to be controversial (ie. maybe he made a slip of the tongue, or maybe he misjudged the media)?

Or, do think that he made these comments intentionally, knowing that they would be controversial (ie. maybe he intended to be controversial because he believes it is beneficial to the Church in some way)? If you think that the comments were intentionally controversial, please also explain what you think his motivation for doing this might be.

I realize, of course, that none of us can know for sure, but Im interested to see what people think. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut

the better question is this, why does the media follow Holy Father around and try to take anything and everything he says, take it out of context, twist it around only to make controversy and controversy between Catholics (trads vs non trads like on this thread). Your frame of reference is wrong and you are by your question putting the burden on our Holy Father instead of the the untrust worthy media looking for trouble and trying to make it. Instead of speculations about Pope Francis and the why he says what he says in thinking he was trying to be controversial, why didn’t you start a thread with “let’s pray for Pope Francis because of the pressure that is enormous that is put on him by the media”

 

[Debora123]

I find it bewildering that some posters on Father Z’s site seem to get rather upset that the pope has chosen to be driven around in a Fiat. I can see why some people might view his choice of car as not being of particular importance, but why would anyone get upset that he isn’t being driven around in a BMW? I wonder is it because some people don’t like the idea that the pope is being driven around in a car that is of less monetary value than the one they the,selves drive? Or is it a message that we all ought to strive to be less attached to material possessions and luxury items, that they don’t like?

Yep, very bizarre. Just like when ppl get upset about handholding, etc etc.

 

[kag1982]

I find it bewildering that some posters on Father Z’s site seem to get rather upset that the pope has chosen to be driven around in a Fiat. I can see why some people might view his choice of car as not being of particular importance, but why would anyone get upset that he isn’t being driven around in a BMW? I wonder is it because some people don’t like the idea that the pope is being driven around in a car that is of less monetary value than the one they the,selves drive? Or is it a message that we all ought to strive to be less attached to material possessions and luxury items, that they don’t like?

I’m thinking the message of simplicity hit a nerve. Most people have cars so by focusing on car choice makes it clear that no one is exempt. (Also the amount of wasted food…).

 

[YoungTradCath]

the better question is this, why does the media follow Holy Father around and try to take anything and everything he says, take it out of context, twist it around only to make controversy and controversy between Catholics (trads vs non trads like on this thread). Your frame of reference is wrong and you are by your question putting the burden on our Holy Father instead of the the untrust worthy media looking for trouble and trying to make it. Instead of speculations about Pope Francis and the why he says what he says in thinking he was trying to be controversial, why didn’t you start a thread with “let’s pray for Pope Francis because of the pressure that is enormous that is put on him by the media”

It doesn’t matter why they do it, we can’t change that.

I find it bewildering that some posters on Father Z’s site seem to get rather upset that the pope has chosen to be driven around in a Fiat. I can see why some people might view his choice of car as not being of particular importance, but why would anyone get upset that he isn’t being driven around in a BMW? I wonder is it because some people don’t like the idea that the pope is being driven around in a car that is of less monetary value than the one they the,selves drive? Or is it a message that we all ought to strive to be less attached to material possessions and luxury items, that they don’t like?

One of the main things I’ve heard is something like, “Humble? The humble thing to do would be to just use what you have, even if it is opulent, instead of spending even more money on countless commissions to look ‘humble.’” This doesn’t so much apply to cars, which are usually free to the Pope, but to things like vestments and stuff.

Yes, it’s cynical, but usually true. Who is more humble, the person who goes out and tries to look humble, or the person who just uses what he has even if it is fabulously opulent?

Of course, this is not the religious meaning of “poverty,” and that makes a difference, but that is how people will think of it.

 

[rfournier103]

Pope Francis is trying to reach out to the world. The media is trying to spin these statements to suit their own agenda, without really looking at the deeper meaning.

If a homosexual is TRULY seeking God, how would they live their life? Would they demand “marriage”, and force us all to think as they do; or would they live a more holy life and live as God demands of us?

When Pope Francis says, “who am I to judge?”; I think he is only alluding to his role as a teacher/pastor/shepherd, and leaving the “judgement” to Christ Jesus.

As far as I can tell, there has been NO error on behalf of Pope Francis, or any change in doctrine and teaching. He is merely reaching out, and perhaps taking a different tone to get people to listen.

Now that Francis has everyone’s attention, maybe they will look a little deeper and discover some truths on their own. Then… with a curious mind they will come forward and seek more truth, and come to understand what God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit expect from us.

I would be far more concerned if the pope were a non-entity in the news. He’s got people talking, and that’s good.

 

[Brendan_64]

It doesn’t matter why they do it, we can’t change that.

One of the main things I’ve heard is something like, “Humble? The humble thing to do would be to just use what you have, even if it is opulent, instead of spending even more money on countless commissions to look ‘humble.’” This doesn’t so much apply to cars, which are usually free to the Pope, but to things like vestments and stuff.

So the Pope has said he is doing this to look humble? Has he said, “Look at me, I am a humble man”?

Yes, it’s cynical, but usually true. Who is more humble, the person who goes out and tries to look humble, or the person who just uses what he has even if it is fabulously opulent?

The Church makes use of vestments, and other trappings as symbols. They are used to communicate a message and have no value in themselves (other than their material value). Pope Francis is going out to meet people where they are and as such is choosing what to wear and what to use, in order to send a message. Like it or not, the world outside of our Church (and many within it) view opulent vestments, extravagant cars etc. as a sign of a materialistic Church. That view can be barrier to evangelising and spreading the Word.

 

[Tigg]

the better question is this, why does the media follow Holy Father around and try to take anything and everything he says, take it out of context, twist it around only to make controversy and controversy between Catholics (trads vs non trads like on this thread)…

Instead of speculations about Pope Francis and the why he says what he says in thinking he was trying to be controversial, why didn’t you start a thread with “let’s pray for Pope Francis because of the pressure that is enormous that is put on him by the media”

I would suggest that in light of the condition and crisis the Church finds herself in today, that the Holy Father has much bigger concerns than any pressure put on him by the secular media.

Your frame of reference is wrong and you are by your question putting the burden on our Holy Father instead of the the untrust worthy media looking for trouble and trying to make it.

The Pope, as a public figure, surely knows everything he says is newsworthy and will be snatched up. Any statement made by him concerning the faith should be directed to the faithful for their edification and holiness. Perhaps we’ll hear some much-needed clarification which is yet to come and sorely needed especially (and apparently) by his American audience.

**2037: **The law of God entrusted to the Church is taught to the faithful as the way of life and truth. The faithful therefore have the right to be instructed in the divine saving precepts that purify judgment and, with grace, heal wounded human reason.

 

[YoungTradCath]

So the Pope has said he is doing this to look humble? Has he said, “Look at me, I am a humble man”?
The Church makes use of vestments, and other trappings as symbols. They are used to communicate a message and have no value in themselves (other than their material value). Pope Francis is going out to meet people where they are and as such is choosing what to wear and what to use, in order to send a message. Like it or not, the world outside of our Church (and many within it) view opulent vestments, extravagant cars etc. as a sign of a materialistic Church. That view can be barrier to evangelising and spreading the Word.

I am not speaking for myself, I am speaking about the perception within many of those in the traddie community.

All I added was that it is ironic that people view opulent vestments and stuff as materialistic, because probably more materialistic, in an absolute sense, is accumulating more material things (literally), for whatever reason. That is not the intention and I would not accuse the Pope of such, but just an observation. If they can have theirs, I can have mine.

 

[Brendan_64]

I am not speaking for myself, I am speaking about the perception within many of those in the traddie community.

My apologies for assuming that you were speaking for yourself there.

All I added was that it is ironic that people view opulent vestments and stuff as materialistic, because probably more materialistic, in an absolute sense, is accumulating more material things (literally), for whatever reason. That is not the intention and I would not accuse the Pope of such, but just an observation. If they can have theirs, I can have mine.

Fair enough.

Just like with the previous Popes I think we should all look to Pope Francis as the captain of our ship, trust his judgement and give him full backing for what he is doing, how he is doing it and the direction he is leading us.

 

[zab]

Pope Francis is still a new pope and learning how to deal with the media. He bravely responds to on the spot questions put to him by the press and gives simple truthful answers. His answers are not contrary to what his predecessors have said and written. I am skeptical of the media’s intentions when it seems to me that they are trying to build Pope Francis up to be who they want him to be. I wonder if the day will come when the media finally realizes this and if they will tear him down faster than they built him up.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Pope Francis is still a new pope and learning how to deal with the media. He bravely responds to on the spot questions put to him by the press and gives simple truthful answers. His answers are not contrary to what his predecessors have said and written. I am skeptical of the media’s intentions when it seems to me that they are trying to build Pope Francis up to be who they want him to be. I wonder if the day will come when the media finally realizes this and if they will tear him down faster than they built him up.

From everything I have read, Pope Francis is quite adept at dealing with the media, as well as politicians. He got quite a bit of experience as Archbishop of Buenos Aires. He is no neophyte in this regard. I think he says what he means and means what he says, and does not need to explain himself to anyone.

 

[Debora123]

From everything I have read, Pope Francis is quite adept at dealing with the media, as well as politicians. He got quite a bit of experience as Archbishop of Buenos Aires. He is no neophyte in this regard. I think he says what he means and means what he says, and does not need to explain himself to anyone.

:clapping::extrahappy::dancing:

 

[felsguy]

So far Pope Francis has made several off-the-cuff commments that the media has spun to suit their own agenda and cause some controversy (atheists go to Heaven, who am I to judge gay people, etc). Im trying to better undersrand the reasons for these comments, and I’d be very interested to hear other peoples opinions.

My question is this. In your opinion, do you think that Pope Francis did not intend for these comments to be controversial (ie. maybe he made a slip of the tongue, or maybe he misjudged the media)?

Or, do think that he made these comments intentionally, knowing that they would be controversial (ie. maybe he intended to be controversial because he believes it is beneficial to the Church in some way)? If you think that the comments were intentionally controversial, please also explain what you think his motivation for doing this might be.

I realize, of course, that none of us can know for sure, but Im interested to see what people think. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut

Weren’t they asking the same kind of questions back in Judea a couple millenia ago?

 

[YoungTradCath]

Fair enough.

Just like with the previous Popes I think we should all look to Pope Francis as the captain of our ship, trust his judgement and give him full backing for what he is doing, how he is doing it and the direction he is leading us.

Oh, I do trust what he is doing.

From everything I have read, Pope Francis is quite adept at dealing with the media, as well as politicians. He got quite a bit of experience as Archbishop of Buenos Aires. He is no neophyte in this regard. I think he says what he means and means what he says, and does not need to explain himself to anyone.

Okay, but perception is still perception. If the perception is, “YEEHAW, the Pope is going to change everything!,” then that is not just some innocuous belief. People are going to start to conduct themselves in a manner that anticipates that.

I do believe the Pope is responsible for his perception in large part. I also believe that his perception so far has some decidedly negative characteristics (see above). However, I do trust what he is trying to do, and I just hope that the positive outcomes outweigh the negative outcomes, whose existence cannot be denied.

 

[McCall1981]

From everything I have read, Pope Francis is quite adept at dealing with the media, as well as politicians. He got quite a bit of experience as Archbishop of Buenos Aires. He is no neophyte in this regard. I think he says what he means and means what he says, and does not need to explain himself to anyone.

Obviously he doesnt have to go around answering any and all questions anyone throws at him, but he does need to “explain” in the sense of teaching the faith in a way that the faithful are able to understand. One of the “rights” of the faithful is to be instructed, correct? And we must understand in order to be instructed.

Oh, I do trust what he is doing.

Okay, but perception is still perception. If the perception is, “YEEHAW, the Pope is going to change everything!,” then that is not just some innocuous belief. People are going to start to conduct themselves in a manner that anticipates that.

I do believe the Pope is responsible for his perception in large part. I also believe that his perception so far has some decidedly negative characteristics (see above). However, I do trust what he is trying to do, and I just hope that the positive outcomes outweigh the negative outcomes, whose existence cannot be denied.

Great post.

Perception matters and has real world consequences. This is the kind of thing Im wrestling with too.