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marineboy
Guest
Any thoughts??? I am interested in hearing your opinion if you have done research on this issue!!!
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Genesis315
Guest
Yes. The fall of socialism there was the fruit.
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miguel_delgado
Guest
if my memory serves the concecration of the USSR ocurred a few months after the pope’s assasination attempt (may 13) i will do some research and come back to you,
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jrabs
Guest
Sr. Lucia had said that Heaven accepted the Pope’s consecration. That is good enough for me.
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jdnation
Guest
I don’t believe it was done. The reports and whole controversy surrounding Sr. Lucia etc were all called into doubt. Sr. Lucia is reported to have said in a secret interview that Heaven had accepted what is done. No doubt Heaven will respond in a similar manner as we have responded.
Russia is in an extremely bad moral state, and the position of the Catholic Church in Russia is practically non-existant, a vastly different contrast than the results of what we have seen in Portugal, which was consecrated. Many are afraid about a re-emergence of Communism under a new guise. We can only wait and see.
Russia is in an extremely bad moral state, and the position of the Catholic Church in Russia is practically non-existant, a vastly different contrast than the results of what we have seen in Portugal, which was consecrated. Many are afraid about a re-emergence of Communism under a new guise. We can only wait and see.
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Ann_Cheryl
Guest
By who was it called in doubt. Not by Sr. Lucia she said that it was done as Mary wanted.
The only ones I have heard who doubt have other agendas.
I believe that is why the Soviet Union fell apart as it was at the same time it was done.
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jdnation
Guest
Ann Cheryl:
The ones calling it into question do have an ‘agenda’ which is consecrating Russia and avoiding terrible conflict, there is really nothing else to gain, and anyone asking for it obviously believes in Fatima and therefore the Catholic Faith. The consecration is meant first and foremost for the conversion of Russia to the Catholic Faith, not the fall of Communism, though that would automatically be tied in with it. This is quite self evident compared to the results of the consecration of Portugal that Russia was not consecrated as originally planned.
If the other apparitions after Fatima are authentic, they tell us that the time has long past and the chastisements cannot be averted, only minimized through prayer. Though in the end, Russia will be converted and the consecration of the world will work.
I cannot say anything with certainty, but there is lots of controversy surrounding it which isn’t simply dismissable. I don’t believe it was done properly, but I do believe that whatever happened, Heaven will respond appropriately.
For one thing we do not know if Sr. Lucia really did say that as it is claimed she said it during a secret 2 hour interview for which the original transcript is not available except for a few staggeringly short pieces of conversation for a 2 hour interview. The reply was something like ‘Heaven has accepted what is done.’ Which can sound quite ambigious if you choose to look at it another way.
The ones calling it into question do have an ‘agenda’ which is consecrating Russia and avoiding terrible conflict, there is really nothing else to gain, and anyone asking for it obviously believes in Fatima and therefore the Catholic Faith. The consecration is meant first and foremost for the conversion of Russia to the Catholic Faith, not the fall of Communism, though that would automatically be tied in with it. This is quite self evident compared to the results of the consecration of Portugal that Russia was not consecrated as originally planned.
If the other apparitions after Fatima are authentic, they tell us that the time has long past and the chastisements cannot be averted, only minimized through prayer. Though in the end, Russia will be converted and the consecration of the world will work.
I cannot say anything with certainty, but there is lots of controversy surrounding it which isn’t simply dismissable. I don’t believe it was done properly, but I do believe that whatever happened, Heaven will respond appropriately.
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tuopaolo
Guest
The 1984 consecration contended to be valid by some is only one in a long line or series of consecrations by popes, including John Paul II and all these previous consecrations are admitted by all as having been invalid as has been confirmed by Lucia who only (allegedly) spoke of the 1984 consecration as valid and had stated that others previous to it were not valid for various reasons.
I personally believe the 1984 consecration was valid. Part of the reason why is this report:
nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/word021805.htm
“Though the pope’s text did not specifically mention Russia, at least one observer, the bishop of Leiria-Fatima, Alberto Cosme do Amaral, said the pope paused at one point and quietly added “Russia” under his breath.”
Perhaps the conversion of Russia will be accomplished during Benedict XVI’s reign. St Maximilian Kolbe in an independent prophecy spoke of how in the future Mary would be crowned in Moscow. If the Russian Orthodox allow Benedict XVI to visit Moscow, perhaps this honoring of Mary will take place there and fulfill this prophecy of St Maximilian. For more information see pages 79-80 of Kolbe: Saint of the Immaculata edited by Bro. Francis M. Kalvelage, FI. In these pages, it is argued that St Maximilian’s prophecy and Fatima’s prophecy are interrelated.
I personally believe the 1984 consecration was valid. Part of the reason why is this report:
nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/word021805.htm
“Though the pope’s text did not specifically mention Russia, at least one observer, the bishop of Leiria-Fatima, Alberto Cosme do Amaral, said the pope paused at one point and quietly added “Russia” under his breath.”
Perhaps the conversion of Russia will be accomplished during Benedict XVI’s reign. St Maximilian Kolbe in an independent prophecy spoke of how in the future Mary would be crowned in Moscow. If the Russian Orthodox allow Benedict XVI to visit Moscow, perhaps this honoring of Mary will take place there and fulfill this prophecy of St Maximilian. For more information see pages 79-80 of Kolbe: Saint of the Immaculata edited by Bro. Francis M. Kalvelage, FI. In these pages, it is argued that St Maximilian’s prophecy and Fatima’s prophecy are interrelated.
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Steven_Merten
Guest
I do not know if Russia has been consicrated or not. I agree with your insites jdnation. I cannot see how Mary is happy that Russia has been liberated from the communists in the wake of the moral destruction of the country. In Mary’s eyes good moral communists going to heaven is a good thing. Liberated people becoming imoral is a bad thing. I do not think that Mary would put a peoples political system above their morallity level. I do not think that Mary is in heaven saying, “Great they have been concecrated, freed and they now have become imoral and this is a great thing because at least they are free.” Mary’s goal is for people, communist or free, to go to heaven.
I have heard Pope John Paul II say that he was saddened that Poland became morally corrupted like the US after it became free. Well then did he consider all his work to free Poland a success or a failure? I would have to think that if Poland became more imoral after being freed, Mary would see his work as a failure. After all, what is the Church’s work on earth, to free nations or to bring people closer to God through their obedience, faithfulness and love for God?
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
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benedictusoblat
Guest
This is an interesting problem made more so by the recent death of Sr. Lucia. A few points.
Clearly the popes believe that Our Lady appeared at Fatima.
I imagine they also believe in the veracity of Sr. Lucia.
Sr. Lucia revealed publicly the necessity of RUSSIA being consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Russia was mentioned specifically.
The consecration of Russia would have been considered “politically incorrect” (probably still is) due to the supposed offense they would take. I doubt the Russian Orthodox would appreciate it much either.
So the popes consecrated the world instead. And (I don’t recall the exact words) Pope John Paul II consecrated the world and (help me here) those areas in need .
Sr. Lucia was asked on a number of occasions whether the 1984 consecration was in accord with Our Lady’s request. Clearly it did not meet the “Russia” test. Initially Sr. Lucia said the consecration was not what Mary requested. Then she changed her story.
It’s just not clear.
It is clear that the Soviet Union collapsed 5 years after the consecration of the world by Pope John Paul II.
It is also clear that Russia remains a largely godless moral wasteland where more pregnancies end by abortion than live birth. The communists have been scattered but the nation is still quite pagan. It just doesn’t smell like they have been “converted.”
Our Lady apparently told Sr. Lucia the consecration would occur but that it “would be very late”. I suspect the consecration of Russia specifically will come in the future, during some great geopolitical nightmare. But what do I know?
Sorry I don’t have any references at hand. It’s the middle of the night and I’m taking a few minutes to answer this “off the top of my head.”
Benedicite,
Benedictusoblatus
Clearly the popes believe that Our Lady appeared at Fatima.
I imagine they also believe in the veracity of Sr. Lucia.
Sr. Lucia revealed publicly the necessity of RUSSIA being consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Russia was mentioned specifically.
The consecration of Russia would have been considered “politically incorrect” (probably still is) due to the supposed offense they would take. I doubt the Russian Orthodox would appreciate it much either.
So the popes consecrated the world instead. And (I don’t recall the exact words) Pope John Paul II consecrated the world and (help me here) those areas in need .
Sr. Lucia was asked on a number of occasions whether the 1984 consecration was in accord with Our Lady’s request. Clearly it did not meet the “Russia” test. Initially Sr. Lucia said the consecration was not what Mary requested. Then she changed her story.
It’s just not clear.
It is clear that the Soviet Union collapsed 5 years after the consecration of the world by Pope John Paul II.
It is also clear that Russia remains a largely godless moral wasteland where more pregnancies end by abortion than live birth. The communists have been scattered but the nation is still quite pagan. It just doesn’t smell like they have been “converted.”
Our Lady apparently told Sr. Lucia the consecration would occur but that it “would be very late”. I suspect the consecration of Russia specifically will come in the future, during some great geopolitical nightmare. But what do I know?
Sorry I don’t have any references at hand. It’s the middle of the night and I’m taking a few minutes to answer this “off the top of my head.”
Benedicite,
Benedictusoblatus
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Sean_O_L
Guest
Steven Merten wrote:
Shades of Adam & Eve!!!
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Sean_O_L
Guest
Steven Merten wrote:
They are now in a similar position to other peoples throughout the world: the possess the possibility of exercising their God given free-will in a way which gives them an opportunity to worship God; an opportunity to convert.
Our Lady did not promise immediate conversion of the Russian people to Catholicism.
They are now in a similar position to other peoples throughout the world: the possess the possibility of exercising their God given free-will in a way which gives them an opportunity to worship God; an opportunity to convert.
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Axion
Guest
Steven Merten:
The thing about Communism was not so much the politics, (although the threat of nuclear war declined) but the suppression of Christianity. In Russia this had gone on since 1917, with churches destroyed and turned into museums, monasteries closed, and Christians made second class citizens. Only the old could afford to be openly christian, since they didn’t have to get good jobs or promotion.
So yes, morality has declined under “freedom”. The communist system maintained a disciplined public morality, with no open sex industry, and very little crime, drugs etc. However churches are being rebuilt and monasteries opened all over Russia. but Christian morality is voluntary and can’t be enforced on disbelievers. Certainly more people worship now in Russia than did under Communism. Most of these are Orthodox, but the Orthodox are still catholic (little c), with valid ministry and sacraments.
The fact is that soon after the 1984 consecration, the communist system miraculously began to break down in Europe, and was gone, peacefully in five years.
The thing about Communism was not so much the politics, (although the threat of nuclear war declined) but the suppression of Christianity. In Russia this had gone on since 1917, with churches destroyed and turned into museums, monasteries closed, and Christians made second class citizens. Only the old could afford to be openly christian, since they didn’t have to get good jobs or promotion.
So yes, morality has declined under “freedom”. The communist system maintained a disciplined public morality, with no open sex industry, and very little crime, drugs etc. However churches are being rebuilt and monasteries opened all over Russia. but Christian morality is voluntary and can’t be enforced on disbelievers. Certainly more people worship now in Russia than did under Communism. Most of these are Orthodox, but the Orthodox are still catholic (little c), with valid ministry and sacraments.
The prophecy referred to Russia, rather than Poland, which managed to hold firmly to the faith throughout Communism. Western consumerism is now taking over, but Poland is still one of the world’s staunchest Catholic countries. The peole there would not think Pope John Paul’s work a failure.
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Fergal
Guest
Such a pity there are folks out there that refuse to believe the truth and look amongst the whirl winds and dust storms for pending disasters and hidden messages.
Let me remind you that your own bishops formally consecrated the United States of America to Immaculate Mary as your Patroness in the mid-1800s. From what I can see America is in an extremely bad moral state and the position of the Catholic Church in America is not very healthy now is it?
So using your same argument maybe I should refuse to believe that America, which, thankfully has not experienced as must turmoil as Russia, was ever consecrated. Maybe some the American Bishops used the wrong formula or one of them missed a word in the sequence or had a sneeze or a yawn during it.
Get real. Wake up to the signs of the times.
Actually in the morning prayer offered this morning a line hit me and it reads like this: ***And to Him will come in dismay all who have resisted." ***Take some time out to contemplate this.
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jrabs
Guest
As always, Fergal, you are the voice of reason in this forum. Thanks and bless you and your family.
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jdnation
Guest
The Consecration of Russia was supposed to be done by the Pope and every Bishop around the world. I suppose the need for everyone was because of the size of the problem concerning Russia. Makes sense. A similar thing can also be said for America I bet.
There are many problems surrounding the controversy of Fatima, which revolve around the consecration and the secret. I advise you lok into it mroe than rather dismiss it off hand-edly as being the imaginings of people obsessed with looking for disaster. Disaster was predicted by the Virgin herself. We’re simply wanting to avoid it, and be assured that we’ve done all we can.
It is not a negative thing to be watchful of the dark times predicted in the Bible, even by Christ Himself. He says, “When you see a cloud rising in the west, you say at once, ‘A shower is coming’; and so it happens. And when you see the south wind blowing, you say, ‘There will be scorching heat’; and it happens. You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky; but why do you not know how to interpret the present time?” (Mat 12:54-56) Think about it…
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jdnation
Guest
And as for what Pope John Paul II really said when he was carrying out another consecration to the World, where he paused and added something unscripted in the occasion. I don’t believe he said Russia, but rather what he did say something like, ‘And especially that country which you requested.’ Everyone knew what he was referring to, and some reported it as being Russia. I’ll try and dig something up sometime…
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chadwilliams
Guest
YES!!!
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tuopaolo
Guest
Technically it was actually Our Lord, not Our Lady, who said that the consecration would happen “late.” The revelations involved not only Our Lady speaking, but also on occasion Our Lord speaking.
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trth_skr
Guest
Got time?
Here is the most comprehensive review of the issue I have seen:
catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/mary/fatima-controversy1.htm
MJW
Here is the most comprehensive review of the issue I have seen:
catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/mary/fatima-controversy1.htm
MJW
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