Has science falsified macroevolution?

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Ok, now can you tie all this together for this simple minded guy? How does the falsification of an initial concept equate to falsification of macro-evolution?

And keep in mind, you claim only partly. Macroevolution is a fact. How does it happen? That is what we are trying to work out.

Peace

Tim
The claim is substantiated in the link so it is not only my claim as you well can see. The claim was that it was partly falsified. As lateral lines are found they eliminate common descent.

I will wait and see how many more are found over time.

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The claim is substantiated in the link so it is not only my claim as you well can see. The claim was that it was partly falsified. As lateral lines are found they eliminate common descent.

I will wait and see how many more are found over time.
How on earth do lateral lines eliminate common descent? All it has done is developed our understanding of the tree of life.
 
Since when can new info not be added to a DNA structure. Insertion is viable way of mutation. And it adds information to the DNA structure.

And to answer something else. You said that the chances of life being created by chemicals is astronomical. Well, being hit by lightning. The chances of being hit by it are extremely small. But, there are people hit by it. The basic rule is that if something can happen, it will sooner or later.
 
Adaptation (micro-evolution) is observed and accepted. Speciation also occurs by adaptation and isolation.
And speciation is also known as what?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller?

Macro-evolution!!! Ding, ding, ding! We have a WINNAH! 😃

Peace

Tim
 
The claim is substantiated in the link so it is not only my claim as you well can see. The claim was that it was partly falsified. As lateral lines are found they eliminate common descent.
No, my friend, they don’t. All that was falsified was how we envisioned the lines of descent, not that there is common descent.

Peace

Tim
 
Micro-evolution and macro-evolution are the same. Micro-evolution used to be what we can easily observe while macro-evolution was the result of micro-evolution over time. Many small changes over time = big change over time.
 
How on earth do lateral lines eliminate common descent? All it has done is developed our understanding of the tree of life.
Sure, it supposedly made “facts” more factual. Someday, we’ll have facts that don’t need to be corrected and “certainties” that are not filled with contradictions and errors. The complete overhaul of the so-called, tree of life to now what is a jumbled mass of confusion is the the first step.
 
And speciation is also known as what?

Anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller?

Macro-evolution!!! Ding, ding, ding! We have a WINNAH! 😃

Peace

Tim
Sorry Orygeny, but that’s not exactly correct. Fruit flies that split remain fruit flies. It’s unlikely these little critters will someday become a bird, or a 6ft pseudo-alien hybrid. Their DNA code overall is not radically changed. This is not the claim macroevolution makes.
 
No, my friend, they don’t. All that was falsified was how we envisioned the lines of descent, not that there is common descent.

Peace

Tim
This is the very next paragraph in the article:

So the Common Descent Hypothesisas we might call the general idea, or the notion of Descent with modification as Darwin called it in his correspondence, is tested every time a particular hypothesis is tested. When there are problems in enough phylogenies, then Common Descent may be rejected. So far, though, it is a very good first approximation, and the fact that revisions can be and have been made show that it is neither dogma, nor insulated from data.
 
Sorry Orygeny, but that’s not exactly correct. Fruit flies that split remain fruit flies. It’s unlikely these little critters will someday become a bird, or a 6ft pseudo-alien hybrid. Their DNA code overall is not radically changed. This is not the claim macroevolution makes.
Actually, it is correct. Macroevolution is evolution at or above the species level. Buffalo correctly noted that speciation also occurs by adaptation and isolation. That is macroevolution.

Peace

Tim
 
Sorry Orygeny, but that’s not exactly correct. Fruit flies that split remain fruit flies. It’s unlikely these little critters will someday become a bird, or a 6ft pseudo-alien hybrid. Their DNA code overall is not radically changed. This is not the claim macroevolution makes.
There are actually around 3,000 species of fruit flies, and speciation has been observed in various populations of fruit flies. Though it may appear subtle, enough genetic divergence leads to reproductive isolation amongst populations–the formation of new species.

talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910_1.html
 
Macroevolution is evolution at or above the species level.
I believe what we discuss is the level at which this occurs. I do not say it does not occur, but what I am saying is that macroevolution is not the ultimate solution for explaining common descent. If a number of fruitflies split, this does not mean all species have a common ancestor. You may speculate, but it would not be objective fact.
 
You may speculate, but it would not be objective fact.
Objective fact is not the goal of science. Scientists seek the best explanations for what we observe. Does ID offer an explanation that is more substantiated by the available evidence?
 
I believe what we discuss is the level at which this occurs. I do not say it does not occur, but what I am saying is that macroevolution is not the ultimate solution for explaining common descent.
What, then, is the ultimate scientific explanation for common descent?
If a number of fruitflies split, this does not mean all species have a common ancestor. You may speculate, but it would not be objective fact.
If they started as one species it does.

Bottom line, though, is that macroevolution has been observed. Even my buddy Buffalo admits it!

Peace

Tim
 
This is the very next paragraph in the article:

So the Common Descent Hypothesisas we might call the general idea, or the notion of Descent with modification as Darwin called it in his correspondence, is tested every time a particular hypothesis is tested. When there are problems in enough phylogenies, then Common Descent may be rejected. So far, though, it is a very good first approximation, and the fact that revisions can be and have been made show that it is neither dogma, nor insulated from data.
So where does that state that common descent has been falsified?
Moreover, science has to an extent falsified the initial conception of macroevolution.
(bolding mine) Please re-read this article. As it clearly states in the section you are referring to, it is the intial conception of macroevolution that has been found to be wrong, not macroevolution or any of the proposed mechanisms. That is a very big difference

I can just imagine the laugh the author of that article would have reading your interpretation!

Peace

Tim
 
Actually, it is correct. Macroevolution is evolution at or above the species level. Buffalo correctly noted that speciation also occurs by adaptation and isolation. That is macroevolution.

Peace

Tim
With adaptation speciation (the inability to breed) happens within the species level.
 
Objective fact is not the goal of science.
It sure is grounded on it. Truth is what the sciences are meant to strive for. However this does not mean science is inherently objective.
What, then, is the ultimate scientific explanation for common descent?
There is an astronomical lack of evidence to show explicitly that bacteria can even evolve into mammals, etc. You are basing your claims upon wishful thinking. (Which btw, as a believer you have no real reason to do so.)
 
So where does that state that common descent has been falsified?

(bolding mine) Please re-read this article. As it clearly states in the section you are referring to, it is the intial conception of macroevolution that has been found to be wrong, not macroevolution or any of the proposed mechanisms. That is a very big difference

I can just imagine the laugh the author of that article would have reading your interpretation!

Peace

Tim
I claimed that part of it was falsified. Here the author was defending the ability for macroevolution to be falsified. I did not say anywhere that it has been completely falsified.

Given all that I wouldn’t expect an all out admission here. 😉 And in another post I wrote I will wait for more lines to be found. 🙂

Let us not put words into my mouth.

The section of the article I referred to was:

Falsifying macroevolution

Is macroevolution a testable hypothesis? Can it be falsified?

Antievolutionists try to make out that macroevolution is a tautology, the way they claim that natural selection is a tautology. The implication is that macroevolution cannot be tested and shown to be wrong, and therefore it is not science.

To clarify this, consider what it is that scientists test when they test a hypothesis. Let’s suppose that we are testing the idea that global warming is caused by a rise in CO2 in the atmosphere. There are two parts to this – one claim is that CO*2 causes the retention of solar and other heat, and the second is that this has happened in the past and is actually happening now. If you show that in a particular case global warming didn’t happen (say, in the period of the last interglacial), you haven’t thereby shown that CO2 doesn’t cause global warming, nor that it isn’t doing so now. All you have tested is a particular case.

We can test a particular claim of macroevolution. We can test, for example, if weasels are more closely related to red pandas than bears are (Flynn and Nedbal 1998, 2000et al.). This is a test of a particular evolutionary tree or scenario. It tests a historical reconstruction. If shown, on the basis of the evidence and the best data, to be wrong, then that history has indeed been falsified. But can we test the idea of common descent? It is not possible to show that something never occurred, but it is very easy to show that where it ought to occur, it either has or it hasn’t. Science will not retain a bad idea when it is shown repeatedly not to explain what we have a right to expect it to explain (this is one reason why creationism was dropped from science back in the 1850s). If macroevolution persistently were shown to run counter to the data, then science would drop it and look for another solution.

Moreover, science has to an extent falsified the initial conception of macroevolution. The original idea was that evolution formed only tree-like patterns – species split like branches. A growing consensus has argued that both hybridisation (species recombining) and lateral genetic transfer (genes crossing the taxonomic boundaries individually or as part of symbiotic organisms that are taken into the “host” taxon’s cellular machinery) are more common than we had previously thought. Macroevolution of species is still regarded as the most common way that the diversity of life has developed, but the “tree” now has “vines” that hang across the branches of single celled organisms (Fig. 4).

Fig 4

So the Common Descent Hypothesisas we might call the general idea, or the notion of Descent with modification as Darwin called it in his correspondence, is tested every time a particular hypothesis is tested. When there are problems in enough phylogenies, then Common Descent may be rejected. So far, though, it is a very good first approximation, and the fact that revisions can be and have been made show that it is neither dogma, nor insulated from data.
 
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