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A
Abu
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Post #37 – with such a defective reading of that post, can you see anything?diggerdomer
Where does Lumen Gentium 12 include the criterion of obeying the Magisterium? I see where it indicates the Faithful need to obey the Word of God.
Post #37: The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, (Lumen Gentium 12), of Vatican II makes it clear that the sensus fidei is a reality only when the faithful obey the Magisterium:
“The whole body of the faithful who have an anointing that comes from the holy one (cf. 1 Jn 2:20, 27) cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of the faith (sensus fidei) of the whole people, when, ‘from the bishops to the last of the faithful’ they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals. By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium), and obeying it, receive** not the mere word of men, but truly the word of God (cf. 1 Th 2:13), the faith delivered once for all to the saints (cf. Jude 3).”
A glaring misconception. Nowhere does Pastor Aeternus, nor Vatican II, require such a statement, and no doctrine includes such a statement as it is not required and not necessary. The subject canon specifies the certainty to be “manifestly demonstrated.”Nowhere is “infallibly taught” mentioned. See Canon 749.3.
Since Canon 749, § 1 defines that “The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority when, a supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful, whose task is to confirm his fellow believers in the faith, he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith and morals is to be held as such,” that is the manifest demonstration in accord with the dogma of Pastor Aeternus.
The CDF would be far more authoritative than dissenting theologians and other aspirants:
**Ordinatio Sacerdotalis Responsum Ad Dubium **
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith October 28, 1995
“Dubium: Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic (Letter) Epistle Ordinatio Sacerdotal is to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.” [My underlining].
Responsum: In the affirmative.
D
diggerdomer
Guest
My apparently defective reading was indicated by my response, which I hoped you would enlighten me on. No need to ask this question, obviously from my response my understanding is defective.Post #37 – with such a defective reading of that post, can you see anything?
You mention the “sensus fidei” but fail to note the “sensus fidelium”. Yes, of course this paragraph is saying that the “sensus fidelium” cannot err in matters of belief. And, of course, not erring in matters of belief requires union with the Magisterium.Post #37: The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, (*Lumen Gentium *12), of Vatican II makes it clear that the sensus fidei is a reality only when the faithful obey the Magisterium:
This is NOT saying that the Faithful are simply to blindly obey the Magisterium, which in effect removes any role of the Faithful in such teachings.
Amen.“The whole body of the faithful who have an anointing that comes from the holy one (cf. 1 Jn 2:20, 27) cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of the faith (sensus fidei) of the whole people, when, ‘from the bishops to the last of the faithful’ they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals. By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium), and obeying it,** receive** not the mere word of men, but truly the word of God (cf. 1 Th 2:13), the faith delivered once for all to the saints (cf. Jude 3).”
Really? Canon Law is a glaring misconception? Please clarify? Thank you.A glaring misconception.
Obviously, as the current Code of Canon Law was promulgated following Vatican I and II, its formulations may not exactly match what those ecumenical councils taught, but certainly they are in accordance with and subject to them.
Or do you disagree? Is Canon Law something we should not follow, because it contrasts or contradicts something from Vatican I or Vatican II?
Again, thanks for any clarification. I really have no idea how Canon Law is a misconception.
D
diggerdomer
Guest
Whether or not dissenting theologians apply, I don’t know and don’t care to go into. Seems tangential.P
The CDF would be far more authoritative than dissenting theologians and other aspirants:
**Ordinatio Sacerdotalis Responsum Ad Dubium **
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith October 28, 1995
“Dubium: Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic (Letter) Epistle Ordinatio Sacerdotal is to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.” [My underlining].
Responsum: In the affirmative.
The point is, the CDF does not possess the charism of teaching infallibly. As the Catholic Church teaches.
A
Abu
Guest
Your glaring misconception is the problem – that Canon Law requires “infallibly taught” to be part of a definitive infallible papal doctrine!Nowhere is “infallibly taught” mentioned. See Canon 749.3.
I really have no idea how Canon Law is a misconception
Nowhere does Pastor Aeternus, nor Vatican II, require such a statement, and no doctrine includes such a statement as it is not required and not necessary. The subject canon specifies the certainty to be “manifestly demonstrated.”
Since Canon 749, § 1 defines that “The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority when, a supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful, whose task is to confirm his fellow believers in the faith, he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith and morals is to be held as such,” that is the manifest demonstration in accord with the dogma of Pastor Aeternus.
Thus Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is definitive and infallible.
The sensus fidei referred to in L.G. art 12, constitutes those who are agreed on the truth - what God has revealed, under the guidance of the sacred Magisterium. This is what gives them universality - spiritual unity. “The truth interiorly possessed gives them consensus, and not the other way around, as though their consensus on some doctrine made it true.” [Fr John A Hardon, *The Catholic Catechism, p 225-227]not erring in matters of belief requires union with the Magisterium…This is NOT saying that the Faithful are simply to blindly obey the Magisterium, which in effect removes any role of the Faithful in such teachings.
The faithful who assent to dogma and doctrine are following Christ who gave us His Supreme Vicar and His Church to lead us unerringly to Him.
D
diggerdomer
Guest
Where do I misunderstand Canon Law, exactly?Your glaring misconception is the problem – that Canon Law requires “infallibly taught” to be part of a definitive infallible papal doctrine!
Exactly my point. Thanks.Nowhere does Pastor Aeternus, nor Vatican II, require such a statement, and no doctrine includes such a statement as it is not required and not necessary. The subject canon specifies the certainty to be “manifestly demonstrated.”
No, you have to read all of Canon Law, and specifically all of Canon 749, in this instance. You can’t isolate selected excerpts, whether from canon law or ecumenical councils.Since Canon 749, § 1 defines that “The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority when, a supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful, whose task is to confirm his fellow believers in the faith, he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith and morals is to be held as such,” that is the manifest demonstration in accord with the dogma of Pastor Aeternus.
A legitimate opinion.Thus Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is definitive and infallible.
No. “Sensus fidei” means “the sense of the faith” i.e. doctrine/dogma. Not people.The sensus fidei referred to in L.G. art 12, constitutes those who are agreed on the truth -
Kind of redundant. “The faithful who assent to dogma and doctrine” are no different from “the faithful.”The faithful who assent to dogma and doctrine are following Christ who gave us His Supreme Vicar and His Church to lead us unerringly to Him.
R
Ron_Conte
Guest
I agree. A theologian is someone who writes theology. A theologian who commits the sin of heresy, or who dissents from an infallible teaching, is still a theologian, though not a good one. Catholic theologians, such as Avery Dulles, often cite the work of Protestant theologians as useful sources, despite material heresy in the belief system of Protestants.A simple list of Protestant theologians is enough to prove that your understanding of who and who is not a theologian is severely limited.
In my theological opinion, the teaching found in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is infallible under papal infallibility. It meets all of the criteria established by Vatican I and reiterated by Vatican II.
However, it is also infallible under the Universal Magisterium. For the Church has always taught that the priesthood is reserved for men only. This has been “the constant and universal Tradition of the Church.”
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, stated, in a public letter dated October 28, 1995, that the teaching of Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is from the Sacred Deposit of Faith: “founded on the written Word of God, and constantly held and applied in the Tradition of the Church.” He also states that this teaching is “explicitly addressed to the entire Catholic Church,” and that “all members of the faithful are required to give their assent to the teaching stated therein.” [Letter of October 28, 1995, “Regarding the SCDF Responsum on Ordinatio Sacerdotalis,” paragraph 11.]
then-Cardinal Ratzinger also calls the teaching in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, “a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all….” [Responsum ad Dubium, commentary]
The fact that this teaching is also in the CCC supports the understanding that this teaching is of the Universal Magisterium. Neither has any Bishop, nor any Pope, teach that women can be ordained to the priesthood (except a few heretical or schismatic Bishops).
A
Abu
Guest
It is only dissenters, Ron, that will not to recognise *Ordinatio Sacerdotalis *as containing a definitive and infallible declaration.
From Donum Veritatis (On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian), C.D.F. 1990, 6: “His role is to pursue in a particular way an ever deeper understanding of the Word of God found in the inspired Scriptures and handed on by the living Tradition of the Church. He does this in communion with the Magisterium which has been charged with the responsibility of preserving the deposit of faith.
How can any dissenter or non-Catholic do that?
“11. Never forgetting that he is also a member of the People of God, the theologian must foster respect far them and be committed to offering them a teaching which in no way does harm to the doctrine of the faith.”
How can any dissenter or non-Catholic avoid harming the doctrine of the faith when they don’t subscribe to it?
Further, “In theology this freedom of inquiry is the hallmark of a rational discipline whose object is given by Revelation, handed on and interpreted in the Church under the authority of the Magisterium, and received by faith. These givens have the force of principles. To eliminate them would mean to cease doing theology.” (Donum Veritatis, 12).
Anyone can call themselves a theologian who has qualified from a theological school; that does not make them a theologian in the eyes of Christ and His Church.
Well hardly. That is the man-in-the-street’s feeling.Ron Conte
A theologian is someone who writes theology.
From Donum Veritatis (On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian), C.D.F. 1990, 6: “His role is to pursue in a particular way an ever deeper understanding of the Word of God found in the inspired Scriptures and handed on by the living Tradition of the Church. He does this in communion with the Magisterium which has been charged with the responsibility of preserving the deposit of faith.
How can any dissenter or non-Catholic do that?
“11. Never forgetting that he is also a member of the People of God, the theologian must foster respect far them and be committed to offering them a teaching which in no way does harm to the doctrine of the faith.”
How can any dissenter or non-Catholic avoid harming the doctrine of the faith when they don’t subscribe to it?
Further, “In theology this freedom of inquiry is the hallmark of a rational discipline whose object is given by Revelation, handed on and interpreted in the Church under the authority of the Magisterium, and received by faith. These givens have the force of principles. To eliminate them would mean to cease doing theology.” (Donum Veritatis, 12).
Anyone can call themselves a theologian who has qualified from a theological school; that does not make them a theologian in the eyes of Christ and His Church.
M
MissMeghan
Guest
She most likely was not excommunicated. We have a lesbian couple in our Church, and the whole Church loves them! Both of them are very active members, and all around great humans.
God, as well as us, loves the sinner, but hates the sin.
God, as well as us, loves the sinner, but hates the sin.
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Ron_Conte
Guest
Abu,
Pope John XXII taught, in a series of sermons, that the faithful departed in Heaven do not have the Beatific Vision of God until after the general Resurrection. Some theologians disagreed and argued against this position. The Pope asserted their right to dissent from his position. And a few years later, a subsequent Pope, Benedict XII, taught that the faithful departed in Heaven do have the Beatific Vision of God, prior to the general Resurrection.
Are you saying that those theologians were not dissenting faithfully?
Avery Dulles wrote an article for First Things magazine (Oct, 2005) in which he dissented from Pope John Paul II’s teaching in Veritatis Splendor that a particular list of sins given by Vatican II is a list of intrinsically evil acts. Vatican II did not say they were intrinsically evil, but only said they were grave sins.
Are you saying that Dulles is not a theologian because he dissented from a non-infallible teaching of a Pope?
The U.S. Bishops issued a document, which I’ve cited for you a couple of times already, stating that there are norms of licit dissent, that a theologian can dissent from non-infallible teachings, to some extent.
How can you dissent from the U.S. Bishops’ teaching, and yet claim that no dissent is possible?
Pope John XXII taught, in a series of sermons, that the faithful departed in Heaven do not have the Beatific Vision of God until after the general Resurrection. Some theologians disagreed and argued against this position. The Pope asserted their right to dissent from his position. And a few years later, a subsequent Pope, Benedict XII, taught that the faithful departed in Heaven do have the Beatific Vision of God, prior to the general Resurrection.
Are you saying that those theologians were not dissenting faithfully?
Avery Dulles wrote an article for First Things magazine (Oct, 2005) in which he dissented from Pope John Paul II’s teaching in Veritatis Splendor that a particular list of sins given by Vatican II is a list of intrinsically evil acts. Vatican II did not say they were intrinsically evil, but only said they were grave sins.
Are you saying that Dulles is not a theologian because he dissented from a non-infallible teaching of a Pope?
The U.S. Bishops issued a document, which I’ve cited for you a couple of times already, stating that there are norms of licit dissent, that a theologian can dissent from non-infallible teachings, to some extent.
How can you dissent from the U.S. Bishops’ teaching, and yet claim that no dissent is possible?
R
Ron_Conte
Guest
“Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.” CCC, n. 2357; see also Persona Humana, n. 8.She most likely was not excommunicated. We have a lesbian couple in our Church, and the whole Church loves them! Both of them are very active members, and all around great humans.
God, as well as us, loves the sinner, but hates the sin.
The ordinary and universal Magisterium infallibly teaches that homosexual acts are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral, and that no marriage is possible (neither natural nor sacramental) between two persons of the same gender. Any Catholic who knowingly and obstinately denies or doubts this teaching commits the sin of formal heresy, and is automatically excommunicated.
Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith…
Canon 1364 §1: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”
O
oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
So does the devil.but she does challenge our thinking about God and our relationship with God and she does merit respect, even if you disagree with her.
A
Abu
Guest
Face reality.Ron Conte
The U.S. Bishops issued a document, which I’ve cited for you a couple of times already, stating that there are norms of licit dissent, that a theologian can dissent from non-infallible teachings, to some extent.
They were wrong, which is precisely why Pope John Paul II has confirmed: “It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the Magisterium is totally compatible with being a ‘good Catholic’ and poses no obstacle to the reception of the sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching office of the bishops of the United States and elsewhere.” [Meeting with US Bishops at Our Lady Queen of Angels Minor Seminary, Los Angeles, Sept 16, 1987]. This is precisely why the Holy Father worded his statement like that.
Since when can a national council of bishops encourage contempt for a definitive, infallible doctrine – of the Magisterium?
That is precisely why Donum Veritatis was issued, see post #14.
No wonder Msgr George A Kelly stresses: “The sensus fidei of the Catholic Church calls for Catholics to be trained to ‘think with the Church’…”(Battle for the American Church Revisited, Ignatius, 1995, p 33).
The monumental error was when dissent was fueled by the ill-considered and arbitrary NCCB pastoral (1968) on Humanae Vitae, in which they tried to establish “norms of licit dissent” which became, for the theologians run amok, “the right of public dissent”, condemned by Cardinal Hickey and Cdl Ratzinger. Thus did Catholic academia become “antimagisterial” Battle for the American Church Revisited, Msgr George A Kelly, Ignatius, 1995, p 73-74].
“Dissenters were offered sanctuary in theology departments of Catholic universities, where, from tenured posts, they dismissed and even scoffed at Magisterial pronouncements, even teaching their students to do so, all without interference from the divinely appointed teachers of the Catholic Church.” What Went Wrong With Vatican II, Dr Ralph McInerny, Sophia Institute Press, 1998, p 109].
As the CDF under Cardinal Ratzinger affirmed: “The freedom of the act of faith cannot justify a right to dissent.” (#36). “The obligation to follow one’s own conscience cannot legitimate dissent.” (#38). Instruction On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian, (Donum Veritatis) 1990, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith].
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diggerdomer
Guest
So does the Magisterium.So does the devil.
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diggerdomer
Guest
Not true.It is only dissenters, Ron, that will not to recognise *Ordinatio Sacerdotalis *as containing a definitive and infallible declaration.
Dissenters are those who would formally disagree with the teaching contained therein, and its degree of binding on the faithful, according to the teaching of the Church.
If you disagree, please provide an authoritative Magisterial reference.
A
Abu
Guest
Thus they will not to recognise Ordinatio Sacerdotalis as containing a definitive and infallible declaration, which requires definitive assent and must be “firmly embraced and held” (Can 750 #2).diggerdomer
Dissenters are those who would formally disagree with the teaching contained therein, and its degree of binding on the faithful, according to the teaching of the Church.
Dissent is totally condemned. There is no licit dissent.
“The freedom of the act of faith cannot justify a right to dissent. In fact this freedom does not indicate at all freedom with regard to the truth but signifies the free self-determination of the person in conformity with his moral obligation to accept the truth. The act of faith is a voluntary act because man, saved by Christ the Redeemer and called by him to be an adopted son, cannot adhere to God unless, drawn by the Father” (Jn 6:44), he offer God the rational homage of his faith." Instruction On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian, (Donum Veritatis) 1990, 36, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith].
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Tsuwano
Guest
Yes, and Christ also challenged our thinking about God and what it means to be in relationship with him. The devil challenges you to think less of that relationship whereas Jesus challenges you to think more of it. Being challenged is not the problem, but how you respond to that challenge.So does the devil.
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diggerdomer
Guest
Where doe the Catholic Church teach that “dissent is totally condemned?”Thus they will not to recognise Ordinatio Sacerdotalis as containing a definitive and infallible declaration, which requires definitive assent and must be “firmly embraced and held” (Can 750 #2).
Dissent is totally condemned. There is no licit dissent.
Maybe we should back up…how does the Catholic Church define “dissent”?
And where does the the Catholic Church teach, formally and authoritatively, binding on all Catholics, that the teaching of Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is infallibly taught?
Please note…I am not questioning the truth of the teaching of Ordination Sacerdoatlis. I agree with its truth.
Thank you.
A
Abu
Guest
Pope John Paul II has confirmed: “It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the Magisterium is totally compatible with being a ‘good Catholic’ and poses no obstacle to the reception of the sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching office of the bishops of the United States and elsewhere.” [Meeting with US Bishops at Our Lady Queen of Angels Minor Seminary, Los Angeles, Sept 16, 1987].diggerdomer
Where doe the Catholic Church teach that “dissent is totally condemned?” how does the Catholic Church define “dissent”?
“The freedom of the act of faith cannot justify a right to dissent. In fact this freedom does not indicate at all freedom with regard to the truth but signifies the free self-determination of the person in conformity with his moral obligation to accept the truth. The act of faith is a voluntary act because man, saved by Christ the Redeemer and called by him to be an adopted son, cannot adhere to God unless, drawn by the Father” (Jn 6:44), he offer God the rational homage of his faith.” Instruction On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian, (Donum Veritatis) [DV] 1990, 36, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith].
B. The problem of dissent (DV)
“32. The Magisterium has drawn attention several times to the serious harm done to the community of the Church by attitudes of general opposition to Church teaching which even come to expression in organized groups. In his apostolic exhortation Paterna cum benevolentia, Paul VI offered a diagnosis of this problem which is still apropos.(25) In particular, he addresses here that public opposition to the Magisterium of the Church also **called “dissent”, **which must be distinguished from the situation of personal difficulties treated above. The phenomenon of dissent can have diverse forms. Its remote and proximate causes are multiple.”
O.S.(Pope John Paul II, 1994)And where does the the Catholic Church teach, formally and authoritatively, binding on all Catholics, that the teaching of Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is infallibly taught?
"4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.
“Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”
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diggerdomer
Guest
Thanks.Pope John Paul II has confirmed: “It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the Magisterium is totally compatible with being a ‘good Catholic’ and poses no obstacle to the reception of the sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching office of the bishops of the United States and elsewhere.” [Meeting with US Bishops at Our Lady Queen of Angels Minor Seminary, Los Angeles, Sept 16, 1987].
“The freedom of the act of faith cannot justify a right to dissent. In fact this freedom does not indicate at all freedom with regard to the truth but signifies the free self-determination of the person in conformity with his moral obligation to accept the truth. The act of faith is a voluntary act because man, saved by Christ the Redeemer and called by him to be an adopted son, cannot adhere to God unless, drawn by the Father” (Jn 6:44), he offer God the rational homage of his faith.” Instruction On The Ecclesial Vocation Of The Theologian, (Donum Veritatis) [DV] 1990, 36, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith].
B. The problem of dissent (DV)
“32. The Magisterium has drawn attention several times to the serious harm done to the community of the Church by attitudes of general opposition to Church teaching which even come to expression in organized groups. In his apostolic exhortation Paterna cum benevolentia, Paul VI offered a diagnosis of this problem which is still apropos.(25) In particular, he addresses here that public opposition to the Magisterium of the Church also **called “dissent”, **which must be distinguished from the situation of personal difficulties treated above. The phenomenon of dissent can have diverse forms. Its remote and proximate causes are multiple.”
O.S.(Pope John Paul II, 1994)
"4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.
“Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”
But if we’re going to be juridical about this, what does Canon Law teach?
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