Has the Bible become corrupted and changed?

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Hey everyone. Islam teaches that the Bible has become corrupted and changed. This really worries me. I know that we do not have any of the original manuscripts of the Bible and that is one thing that worries me. Plus, don’t theologians and such admit that there are some errors in the Bible? From what I understand, a word or phrase is changed here and there but it’s mostly grammatical, spelling, and punctuation errors.
 
There are errors of translation, quite a few of them in fact, but this are not errors in the sense that they are mistakes. Many English copies of the Bible for instance have gone through multiple translations, from greek to latin to german and then finally to english; that’s the translation from which many of the earliest bibles were based on.

It’s very hard to express the original meaning of a text in a language different from the one it was originally written in. Take Love for instance, there are many Greek words for that; Eros, Agape, Philia, all denoting different types and expressions of love. In English you have the one (I guess it’s true you guys aren’t that good at romance 😃 ). You can imagine going through all that interpretation is enough, but the act of translation is so subjective too in expressing intent. Just pick up any English copy of the Illiad, each translator has his own ideas of what a word should be translated as and with what intent.

The Qu’ran has escaped this to a degree because it has never (officially) been translated from Arabic. That’s not to say the Qu’ran is flawless however, there are many historical innacuracies inside, not to mention blatant immorality.

Use your sense of reason Holly and look at how the Islamic world is. Does that look idyllic to you, there’s many things promoted by Islam I wouldn’t hesitate to brand immoral. You should know by now God is loving, why would he incite us all to violence and to slaughter the infidel as Islam does?

Islam might not be my area of expertise but I’m still a Secular Theologian, and all of us have to have a broad knowledge of World Religions. If you’d like I could answer any questions or settle any doubts you might have in PM’s. I can assure you, The Qu’ran might not have translation problems but it has a great deal many others.
 
There are no errors in the Bible. There are some errors in translations, but not the Bible itself.
 
Why let the criticisms leveled by non-Catholics cause you to become so very concerned? There is no need. Check what your own faith teaches and rely on that. Certainly don’t have it take second place to Islamic teaching.

The approach to scripture in Islam is quite different than that of Christians. The Orthodox Muslims believe that the Quran is the unchanging word of God, literally. They claim that not a single word has been changed since its writing sometime after the death of Muhammad in 632CE. (This is disputed by some.) It has not been changed to allow for any purpose, such as the changes in meaning of words or phrases. (Again this is strongly disputed.) It is often memorized word for word.

Our Bible has “changed” but not doctrinally. New translations have been written in order to give a more exact and correct version based on scholarship in Middle Eastern culture and languages, archaeology, and anthropology. Again, this is done only to make the words we read match more precisely the original infallible message used to declare the Word.

There is no “original” bible. There are many very, very old versions of independent books that were eventually formed into the canonical “library” of texts we know as Scripture. Remember that from the most ancient periods of Moses up until the time of Christ most people could not read and write. Scriptures were passed down in oral tradition. While the Apostles survived they were the “source” of knowledge of the life of Christ. Finally people came to understand that there was a need to record the stories for future generations.

Muhammad received the revelations beginning in 610CE and continuing over a period of 23 years, but it wasn’t until he went to Medina in 622CE and formed an independent Moslem community there that he had his companions memorize the Quran to enable them to teach it. Eventually a small group of Muslims became literate and recorded it on tablets, bones, and date palm fronds. None of these survives.

Muslims agree that the Qur’an we see today was canonized by Uthman ibn Affan (653-656). Upon the canonization of the Qur’an, Uthman ordered the burning of all personal copies of the Qur’an.

The oldest surviving Quran is the The Samarkand Kufic Quran. It is an 8th century manuscript written in Iraq. This would obviously be a long time after the death of Muhammad. I fail to see how their scripture, then, is any more “original” than our Bible.
 
Just saying there are errors in the Bible is very vague. What are some of the errors of which you have heard?
 
Just saying there are errors in the Bible is very vague. What are some of the errors of which you have heard?
Well, nobody has ever specified. They just simply the Bible has been corrupted over the centuries.
 
Hey everyone. Islam teaches that the Bible has become corrupted and changed. This really worries me. I know that we do not have any of the original manuscripts of the Bible and that is one thing that worries me. Plus, don’t theologians and such admit that there are some errors in the Bible? From what I understand, a word or phrase is changed here and there but it’s mostly grammatical, spelling, and punctuation errors.
This is a common claim that is actually a logical fallacy in and of itself.

In Islam, as it does in the minds of many sola scripturian Christians, the ultimate and purest form of revelation is holy writ–which for Muslims is the Quran. Religion must therefore be based upon what is written, and therefore what is written must be beyond error to the highest degree.

This is not the same with Catholicism and Judaism. While both religious groups hold the Bible as inspired of God and authoritative, the Scriptures are not viewed as the basis of religion. Instead, holy writ is the product of both religions.

Judaism is based on a series of theophanies of God. These theophanies were experienced by Abraham and the other patriarchs. Some of the greatest of all theophanies and the longest lasting series of them were those experienced by Moses. Even the nation of Israel as a whole experienced a theophany in fire and smoke when they camped at the foot of Mount Sinai to receive the Ten Commandments.

The religion of the Jews was built from here, and eventually texts they held as sacred or used in public worship (like the Psalms) became part of the Hebrew Scriptures. Their religion is not based on the Scriptures. On the contrary, the Scriptures are based on Judaism.

The same is true with the Church. The texts of the New Testament did not come first, appearing out of nowhere. People didn’t stumble upon these books or find them hidden in the ground and decided to base a religion upon what they read.

Instead the religion of the Church is based on a person, Jesus Christ. In Jesus the first Christians experienced an epiphany. Unlike the theophanies of the Old Testament period in which miraculous manifestations signaled God’s presence among mortals, God came to us in the person of Jesus, and those who came to see this revelation of God in Jesus (which is what an epiphany is) became what we today call “Christians.”

They didn’t do this because they read about Jesus in a book. In fact this happened before any of the books of the New Testament were written. Like Judaism before it, the religion of Christianity came first and faithful members therein wrote the texts that Church leaders eventually declared as canon.

What does this have to do with changes to the Bible? Only that in both cases, both Jews and Christians believe that the entire process of producing these books–which includes some editing down through the centuries–was part of the inspiration process. It is the condition they were in when they became officially canonized that contains the fullness of the Word of God.

Over the years some of the Bible books were made up of several being combined. In other cases some explanation may have been added within the text (the Dead Sea Scrolls shows that small portions of Isaiah came to us this way, placing explanatory information somewhat similar to our modern footnotes into the final form we have today).

So has there been change? Not since the books were finalized and accepted as canon, no. Did the process of producing them up to this stage include change? Of course. For example the last book of Moses, Deuteronomy, ends with a description of his death and events that immediately followed. These were clearly additions–but they were inspired additions and necessary since God inspired them all the same.

Have they been corrupted? No. The Dead Sea Scrolls would have proven that. They are 1000 years older than any text we had on hand before the 1950s. Except for a few of these editorial refinements, we have essentially what the original authors and editors developed and wrote down.

The reason they raise this point is that they think we view written texts the way they do, as the ultimate revelation from God. As Christians we do not hold the Bible as God’s ultimate revelation–Jesus Christ is that ultimate revelation, a Person and not a Book.

So even if minor errors or mistakes have crept in (and we have discovered such over the years which is why we make revised translations from time to time) it doesn’t change that upon which our religion is based–or should I say upon Whom our religion is based: Jesus.

Our religion is not based on what is written in Scripture. It is Scripture that is based on what is written by God onto our hearts.
 
By the way, it should be noted that Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses and a few other religious groups make this claim as well.

The reason these groups do this is because they live by the rule: Religion must be based on what is written. What is written is the ultimate in revelation.

While the written Word of God is indeed inspired revelation from the Almighty, it is not the ultimate nor is it exhaustive. If all that was needed was a written text, then Jesus never had to come to earth to save us.

Moses went up the mountain to bring the Law down. This isn’t because he had read the Law first and came to have faith in God because of what was written. No, Moses had faith before there was a written word. Moses wrote his books because he first had faith.

Abraham did not leave Ur of the Chaldeans because of what he found written in a book. He left out of faith in God, and this faith that came from hearing God’s word and not reading it was counted to him as righteousness.

Did John write his gospel because he read it in a book or was it because he knew Jesus personally? Was it his own eyewitness experience that caused him to be saved by faith in what he saw or was he saved because he believed in what he later wrote on parchment? He was saved before he wrote his gospel. Saving religion came first. Only then did those saved by religion write what is holy.

If we do not have true religion unless we have a written revelation than none of us are saved. Why not? Because those who wrote the Scriptures did not do so because of written revelation.

And if they did not have written revelation by this rule of those who say true religion requires it, then the religion of the Bible writers could not be true.

And if the religion of the Bible writers was not true because their religion was not based on Scripture, then nothing they wrote is true and all who trust in what they wrote is lost.

But no, their writings are true because their religion was true. True religion came first. True religion produced Scripture, and not the other way.

The cart does not pull the horse.
 
Well, nobody has ever specified. They just simply the Bible has been corrupted over the centuries.
If they can’t provide any examples or proof, that tells you they don’t have any and there’s nothing to worry about.
 
No, the Bible has not become corrupted in the way that Muslims allege (or many sensationalist media reports for that matter).

Yes we do not have the original manuscripts, however we are greater than 99% sure of what the original manuscripts said, thanks to the lines of thousands of manuscripts from around the Roman Empire and quotations of scripture in the writings of the Church Fathers. Beyond that, none of the differences affect any fundamental doctrine or core belief of Christianity.

Dan Wallace is a top tier textual critic and Bible scholar and he has made some good videos (along with some good books, but textual criticism is a different subject than the historicity of the New Testament):

youtube.com/watch?v=ftHecLxquCg

This is a play list of some excellent short videos about this topic of supposed corruption of the Bible, I’d recommend starting with Wallace’s videos:

youtube.com/user/ehrmanproject

Now turning to Islam and its teaching on the Bible. Surah 5:45-46 of the Qur’an says:
And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.
quran.com/5

So what does this mean? It means that The Qur’an is telling Christians to look at the Gospel, which it calls a “guidance and a light”, and “judge therein”. This means that Allah was supposedly telling people to look at the Gospel as it existed in 632 AD, otherwise how else could the People of the Gospel that Allah was supposedly speaking to judge it? Why would Allah tell people to read a book if it had already become corrupted and thus disappeared?

The thing is we have entire copies of the New Testament that predate 632 AD by 3 centuries (one example is the Codex Vaticanus at the Vatican library). And what do we find in them? We find things that contradict what the Qur’an says in other places: the Divinity of the Incarnate Son of God, The Crucifixion, the Resurrection, the Trinity. This means that Muhammed was ignorant of the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, and that he was not a prophet.

So even by the Qur’an itself, we are led to the Gospel 🙂
 
There are liberal Protestants that used to say the same sort of thing, but Protestant scholars found it necessary to backpeddle on this. For example, a copy of the Gospel of Saint John was found from about the year 100 which is the same one as the one we have now.
 
Hey everyone. Islam teaches that the Bible has become corrupted and changed. This really worries me. I know that we do not have any of the original manuscripts of the Bible and that is one thing that worries me. Plus, don’t theologians and such admit that there are some errors in the Bible? From what I understand, a word or phrase is changed here and there but it’s mostly grammatical, spelling, and punctuation errors.
Why are you worried? Do you believe the Bible is the be all and end all of Christianity in first place? I find it surprising that you are shaken here. Jesus is with us, through the Holy Spirit, have no fear.

Secondly, Islam doesn’t teach the Bible has become corrupted. There is no central authority in Islam that says so.

MJ
 
No, the Bible has not become corrupted in the way that Muslims allege (or many sensationalist media reports for that matter).

Yes we do not have the original manuscripts, however we are greater than 99% sure of what the original manuscripts said, thanks to the lines of thousands of manuscripts from around the Roman Empire and quotations of scripture in the writings of the Church Fathers. Beyond that, none of the differences affect any fundamental doctrine or core belief of Christianity.

Dan Wallace is a top tier textual critic and Bible scholar and he has made some good videos (along with some good books, but textual criticism is a different subject than the historicity of the New Testament):

youtube.com/watch?v=ftHecLxquCg

This is a play list of some excellent short videos about this topic of supposed corruption of the Bible, I’d recommend starting with Wallace’s videos:

youtube.com/user/ehrmanproject

Now turning to Islam and its teaching on the Bible. Surah 5:45-46 of the Qur’an says:

quran.com/5

So what does this mean? It means that The Qur’an is telling Christians to look at the Gospel, which it calls a “guidance and a light”, and “judge therein”. This means that Allah was supposedly telling people to look at the Gospel as it existed in 632 AD, otherwise how else could the People of the Gospel that Allah was supposedly speaking to judge it? Why would Allah tell people to read a book if it had already become corrupted and thus disappeared?

The thing is we have entire copies of the New Testament that predate 632 AD by 3 centuries (one example is the Codex Vaticanus at the Vatican library). And what do we find in them? We find things that contradict what the Qur’an says in other places: the Divinity of the Incarnate Son of God, The Crucifixion, the Resurrection, the Trinity. This means that Muhammed was ignorant of the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, and that he was not a prophet.

So even by the Qur’an itself, we are led to the Gospel 🙂
Good work. 🙂

MJ
 
Hey everyone. Islam teaches that the Bible has become corrupted and changed. This really worries me. I know that we do not have any of the original manuscripts of the Bible and that is one thing that worries me. Plus, don’t theologians and such admit that there are some errors in the Bible? From what I understand, a word or phrase is changed here and there but it’s mostly grammatical, spelling, and punctuation errors.
Sigh! And they given you the proof? I have asked one of the forumers to show evidence and all he could manage is to say that the Koran says so based upon a few verses. And when those supporting verses were properly understood, the Koran doesn’t really say the Bible is corrupted. And the support came from other learned Muslims who have dismissed those alleged supporting verses.

2ndly if they are so sure that the Bible is corrupted, they should be able to provide the Bible pre vs post corruption so that we can see the evidence of the corruption. Innocent until proven guilty so to speak. Such evidence is not available.
 
Hey everyone. Islam teaches that the Bible has become corrupted and changed. This really worries me. I know that we do not have any of the original manuscripts of the Bible and that is one thing that worries me. Plus, don’t theologians and such admit that there are some errors in the Bible? From what I understand, a word or phrase is changed here and there but it’s mostly grammatical, spelling, and punctuation errors.
Islam has adopted gnostic ideas about Jesus, thats why they say the Bible is corrupted.
 
This is a common claim that is actually a logical fallacy in and of itself.

In Islam, as it does in the minds of many sola scripturian Christians, the ultimate and purest form of revelation is holy writ–which for Muslims is the Quran. Religion must therefore be based upon what is written, and therefore what is written must be beyond error to the highest degree.

This is not the same with Catholicism and Judaism. While both religious groups hold the Bible as inspired of God and authoritative, the Scriptures are not viewed as the basis of religion. Instead, holy writ is the product of both religions.

Judaism is based on a series of theophanies of God. These theophanies were experienced by Abraham and the other patriarchs. Some of the greatest of all theophanies and the longest lasting series of them were those experienced by Moses. Even the nation of Israel as a whole experienced a theophany in fire and smoke when they camped at the foot of Mount Sinai to receive the Ten Commandments.

The religion of the Jews was built from here, and eventually texts they held as sacred or used in public worship (like the Psalms) became part of the Hebrew Scriptures. Their religion is not based on the Scriptures. On the contrary, the Scriptures are based on Judaism.

The same is true with the Church. The texts of the New Testament did not come first, appearing out of nowhere. People didn’t stumble upon these books or find them hidden in the ground and decided to base a religion upon what they read.

Instead the religion of the Church is based on a person, Jesus Christ. In Jesus the first Christians experienced an epiphany. Unlike the theophanies of the Old Testament period in which miraculous manifestations signaled God’s presence among mortals, God came to us in the person of Jesus, and those who came to see this revelation of God in Jesus (which is what an epiphany is) became what we today call “Christians.”

They didn’t do this because they read about Jesus in a book. In fact this happened before any of the books of the New Testament were written. Like Judaism before it, the religion of Christianity came first and faithful members therein wrote the texts that Church leaders eventually declared as canon.

What does this have to do with changes to the Bible? Only that in both cases, both Jews and Christians believe that the entire process of producing these books–which includes some editing down through the centuries–was part of the inspiration process. It is the condition they were in when they became officially canonized that contains the fullness of the Word of God.

Over the years some of the Bible books were made up of several being combined. In other cases some explanation may have been added within the text (the Dead Sea Scrolls shows that small portions of Isaiah came to us this way, placing explanatory information somewhat similar to our modern footnotes into the final form we have today).

So has there been change? Not since the books were finalized and accepted as canon, no. Did the process of producing them up to this stage include change? Of course. For example the last book of Moses, Deuteronomy, ends with a description of his death and events that immediately followed. These were clearly additions–but they were inspired additions and necessary since God inspired them all the same.

Have they been corrupted? No. The Dead Sea Scrolls would have proven that. They are 1000 years older than any text we had on hand before the 1950s. Except for a few of these editorial refinements, we have essentially what the original authors and editors developed and wrote down.

The reason they raise this point is that they think we view written texts the way they do, as the ultimate revelation from God. As Christians we do not hold the Bible as God’s ultimate revelation–Jesus Christ is that ultimate revelation, a Person and not a Book.

So even if minor errors or mistakes have crept in (and we have discovered such over the years which is why we make revised translations from time to time) it doesn’t change that upon which our religion is based–or should I say upon Whom our religion is based: Jesus.

Our religion is not based on what is written in Scripture. It is Scripture that is based on what is written by God onto our hearts.
DJ, I thank you for this. Just beautiful and focused throughout.

Blessed are the pure in heart! :amen:

🙂

MJ
 
By the way, it should be noted that Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses and a few other religious groups make this claim as well.

The reason these groups do this is because they live by the rule: Religion must be based on what is written. What is written is the ultimate in revelation.

While the written Word of God is indeed inspired revelation from the Almighty, it is not the ultimate nor is it exhaustive. If all that was needed was a written text, then Jesus never had to come to earth to save us.

Moses went up the mountain to bring the Law down. This isn’t because he had read the Law first and came to have faith in God because of what was written. No, Moses had faith before there was a written word. Moses wrote his books because he first had faith.

Abraham did not leave Ur of the Chaldeans because of what he found written in a book. He left out of faith in God, and this faith that came from hearing God’s word and not reading it was counted to him as righteousness.

Did John write his gospel because he read it in a book or was it because he knew Jesus personally? Was it his own eyewitness experience that caused him to be saved by faith in what he saw or was he saved because he believed in what he later wrote on parchment? He was saved before he wrote his gospel. Saving religion came first. Only then did those saved by religion write what is holy.

If we do not have true religion unless we have a written revelation than none of us are saved. Why not? Because those who wrote the Scriptures did not do so because of written revelation.

And if they did not have written revelation by this rule of those who say true religion requires it, then the religion of the Bible writers could not be true.

And if the religion of the Bible writers was not true because their religion was not based on Scripture, then nothing they wrote is true and all who trust in what they wrote is lost.

But no, their writings are true because their religion was true. True religion came first. True religion produced Scripture, and not the other way.

The cart does not pull the horse.
:clapping:

MJ
 
Another example of the accuracy of the Bible is that many of the oldest Hebrew and Aramaic copies we had of the Old Testament were from the 9th and 10th centuries AD. (We have older texts, but only in Greek.) When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1946–1956, we suddenly had scrolls that had been copied between about 100 BC and (apparently) 70 AD.

According to The Oxford Companion to Archaeology:
The biblical manuscripts from Qumran, which include at least fragments from every book of the Old Testament, except perhaps for the Book of Esther, provide a far older cross section of scriptural tradition than that available to scholars before. While some of the Qumran biblical manuscripts are nearly identical to the Masoretic, or traditional, Hebrew text of the Old Testament, some manuscripts of the books of Exodus and Samuel found in Cave Four exhibit dramatic differences in both language and content. In their astonishing range of textual variants, the Qumran biblical discoveries have prompted scholars to reconsider the once-accepted theories of the development of the modern biblical text from only three manuscript families: of the Masoretic text, of the Hebrew original of the Septuagint, and of the Samaritan Pentateuch. It is now becoming increasingly clear that the Old Testament scripture was extremely fluid until its canonization around A.D. 100.
However, even with that, it is not clear that the Bible was “corrupted”–there are textual variants and differences of content, but the core message is largely unchanged.
 
Old Testament textual criticism is in its infancy, I would take the conclusions of secular liberal scholarship with a grain of salt until much more work is done.
 
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