Has the Bible Been Fabricated?

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Augustine3

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This is an opportunity for Muslims to present their case and prove their affirmation that the bible both Old and New Testament have been corrupt.

Friendly Tip – the more precise (dates, documents, manuscripts etc.) the evidence you present the more convincing your argument will be…
 
How the bible, which is multiple texts, passed down for centuries, by no single one collector or interpretor or distributor of the texts, could be fabricated is beyond me. Unlike the quran which was compiled during the Uthmanic recension, the bible never had a single authority to determine a “universal bible.”

There has always been a difference of canons within the history of the church, east and west, although generally they are the same and you could limit the universally accepted books to around 66 (although I would say there are more books than that). The different text types don’t actually hurt but help us and scholars can use this information and compare and contrast texts from different regions and times to find out what the original meaning is. This is why its good for there to be a Nestle Aland new testament, something which I suspect will never exist for the quran (for obvious reasons).
 
this thread seems to have been created in response to what that muslim guy said in the Surah 10:94 thread…I doubt he will show up here…or maybe he is looking for some facts about bible corruption…lol.
 
sennincatholic said:
this thread seems to have been created in response to what that muslim guy said in the Surah 10:94 thread…I doubt he will show up here…or maybe he is looking for some facts about bible corruption…lol.
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I suppose Augustine3’s idea was infact what you are suggesting.

Now, you also have a point, the guy is looking for these “facts” or I would wager…he’s given up on that!😃

MJ
 
I haven’t noticed any posts so far from Muslims. It will be interesting to see if you get any.
 
Sorry Augustine3, I will reverse that, I will prove that the Quran has been fabricated ;)…

1) During the time of Muhammed, some of the Quran had been written by his disciples when Muhammed used to recite them, they were written using early Arabic ancient script (no pointing and no vowel marks) on papyrus and leather fabric, however, some versus of Quran were not written at all but his disciples were memorizing them.

2) After Muhammed death Abu-Bakr ordered all versus of Quran to be written and assembled in one book.

3) During Uthman time (after around 14 years of Muhammed death), Uthman burnt all versions of Quran and wrote his own version:



4) During the 5th Umayyad Caliph (after around 70 years of Muhammed death), pointing and vowel marks were added to the original text:

http://www.usna.edu/Users/humss/bwheeler/images/Quran/kufi2_2dAH.jpeg

5) Authentic hadiths show that some versus are missing:
***Sahih Muslim, Book 017, Number 4194:
**** Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817:
*A particular verse of the stoning punishment for stoning (male cleric) & (female cleric) was revealed to Muhammad, but now it’s not found in Quran.
http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/082-sbt.php

6) Yemen’s manuscript shows discrepancy:
"Puin is not alone in his enthusiasm. “The impact of the Yemeni manuscripts is still to be felt,” says Andrew Rippin, a professor of religious studies at the University of Calgary, who is at the forefront of Koranic studies today. "Their variant readings and verse orders are all very significant. Everybody agrees on that. These manuscripts say that the early history of the Koranic text is much more of an open question than many have suspected: the text was less stable, and therefore had less authority, than has always been claimed."
theatlantic.com/past/issues/99jan/koran.htm

7) Nowadays we have different versions of Quran:
mechristian.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/different-qurans/
 
Augustine3 said:
This is an opportunity for Muslims to present their case and prove their affirmation that the bible both Old and New Testament have been corrupt.

Friendly Tip – the more precise (dates, documents, manuscripts etc.) the evidence you present the more convincing your argument will be…
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Sadly Muslims can only say that the Bible has been corrupted but they cannot find any support for this assertion. That makes one thinks, the only reason they say so is because of the Biblical contradiction to the Quran and being Muslims, faced with a choice, then the Quran has to be right and the Bible wrong.
 
sennincatholic said:
this thread seems to have been created in response to what that muslim guy said in the Surah 10:94 thread.
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MartinJordan said:
I suppose Augustine3’s idea was infact what you are suggesting.
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Yep you both got that right 👍

I’ve asked this question to Muslims before on the Islamic forum and all they seem to do is cherry pick verses out of the Septuagint and compare them with the Masoretic text. The best of seen them do so far is point out the Adulteress narrative is not found amongst the earliest manuscripts and it was a later addition. I ask them does this narrative in any way contradict the rest of the bible in it’s respective content and unity? Their typical honest answer is…uuummm hmmmm? 🤷
 
Augustine3 said:
Yep you both got that right 👍

I’ve asked this question to Muslims before on the Islamic forum and all they seem to do is cherry pick verses out of the Septuagint and compare them with the Masoretic text. The best of seen them do so far is point out the Adulteress narrative is not found amongst the earliest manuscripts and it was a later addition
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Hold on! If they’re talking about the Septuagint and Masoretic texts, surely (unless my thinking is incorrect) shouldn’t there have been a mention in Islam’s texts about any particular and questionable problems about the two from the get go of revelations at least after Mohammed’s death if not from Mohammed himself? :confused:

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Hold on! If they’re talking about the Septuagint and Masoretic texts, surely (unless my thinking is incorrect) shouldn’t there have been a mention in Islam’s texts about any particular and questionable problems about the two from the get go of revelations at least after Mohammed’s death if not from Mohammed himself? :confused:

MJ
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Nope no mention of these texts.

From the evidence I’ve seen, I don’t personally believe Muhammad himself believed the scriptures had been corrupt. The proof texts Muslims use from the Quran are highly controversial and ambiguous.

Muhammad has praised the scriptures many times in the Quran; you’ll never find alongside these verses of praise a verse saying “but unfortunately they are now corrupt”, the scriptures are praised full stop…I hope our Muslim friends start using thinking about these sort of things :hmmm:
 
Augustine3 said:
From the evidence I’ve seen, I don’t personally believe Muhammad himself believed the scriptures had been corrupt. The proof texts Muslims use from the Quran are highly controversial and ambiguous.

Muhammad has praised the scriptures many times in the Quran; you’ll never find alongside these verses of praise a verse saying “but unfortunately they are now corrupt”, the scriptures are praised full stop…I hope our Muslim friends start using thinking about these sort of things :hmmm:
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I think you’re right about the Qur’an itself, that its treatment of Jewish and Christian scriptures is usually positive and, at worst, ambiguous.

Here’s one of those “full stop” texts you mention:
Quran:
God, (there is) no god but He, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all things subsist. He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan. Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of God they shall have a severe chastisement; and God is Mighty, the Lord of retribution.
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As you say, there’s no “God revealed the Torah and the Gospel, but you can’t follow them anymore” qualification.

Sometimes the Qur’an accuses Jews and Christians of not obeying what their own scriptures teach, forgetting or misunderstanding what their own scriptures teach, or of perverting the meaning of those scriptures. All of these accusations are based on the implicit assumption that there is nothing wrong with the scriptures Jews and Christians already have, because it would make little sense to rebuke someone for disobeying, ignoring, or misunderstanding something one doesn’t believe to be true in the first place.

In at least one place, the Qur’an accuses some unspecified group of Jews, Christians, and/or Sabians of forgery for profit: “Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from God, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.” This passage does not, however, support the broader idea that all Jewish and Christian scriptures have been forged/corrupted or that all Jews and Christians are using forged/corrupted scriptures. The Qur’an itself does not say that.

From what I’ve seen, the now common Muslim belief that all Jewish and Christian scriptures have been forged/corrupted, or that all Jews and Christians are using forged/corrupted scriptures, is apparently an invention of medieval Muslims who were unable to reconcile (1) the good things the Qur’an says about Jewish and Christian scriptures with both (2) their faith in Muhammad’s other “revelations” and (3) what Jewish and Christian scriptures actually say. In order to save (2), they came to the conclusion that they had to reject (3).
 
Augustine3 said:
Nope no mention of these texts.

From the evidence I’ve seen, I don’t personally believe Muhammad himself believed the scriptures had been corrupt. The proof texts Muslims use from the Quran are highly controversial and ambiguous.
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So that means there is distinct probability that Muslims have come up with different ideas later in Islam’s growth rather than it’s true origin.
Augustine3 said:
Muhammad has praised the scriptures many times in the Quran; you’ll never find alongside these verses of praise a verse saying “but unfortunately they are now corrupt”, the scriptures are praised full stop…I hope our Muslim friends start using thinking about these sort of things :hmmm:
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I’ll take your word for it. Ive tried to comprehend the Quran for some years now and come to the point where I find too much ambiguity to make any coherent sense for my liking. Got too tired out to keep my interest in it:blush:

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
So that means there is distinct probability that Muslims have come up with different ideas later in Islam’s growth rather than it’s true origin.
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I think aspirant put it quite succinctly 👍
aspirant said:
From what I’ve seen, the now common Muslim belief that all Jewish and Christian scriptures have been forged/corrupted, or that all Jews and Christians are using forged/corrupted scriptures, is apparently an invention of medieval Muslims who were unable to reconcile (1) the good things the Qur’an says about Jewish and Christian scriptures with both (2) their faith in Muhammad’s other “revelations” and (3) what Jewish and Christian scriptures actually say. In order to save (2), they came to the conclusion that they had to reject (3).
Click to expand...
 
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