Has the Catholic Church apologized for burning Giordano Bruno at the stake?

[Mintaka]

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

If you say, “The Holy Spirit does not will that X should happen to heretics,” what is the error?

The error is saying, “I am so smart that I know all about what God wills and does not will. Specifically, about specific kinds of people.” Or, “I know what the Church MUST teach about this issue, even when the pope and the bishops don’t know.” This is an error of presumption.

To a certain extent, you can give your opinion and I can give my opinion as to what God wills or what the Church is eventually going to figure out. We can come up with beautiful thoughts that sound really good. Heck, maybe we will even turn out to be right, in a hundred or two hundred years.

But neither you nor I can know these things, all by our little lonesomes. So neither you nor I can definitively teach these things. The most we can do is to say, “This is my educated guess about God’s will in this case, based on Scripture and the teachings of the Church, and/or based on common sense and logic.”

The Church is remarkably okay with people floating trial balloons of every kind – as long as they are clearly labeled as guesses or personal thoughts.

 

[Mintaka]

Anyway, the really remarkable thing is that Giordano Bruno survived all his attempts to be a Daring Secret Agent in All the Courts of Europe, as well as all the other normal secular crimes he kept committing. But he must have been better at skipping town in foreign lands than in familiar territory like Rome.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Example

the Lateran Council in 1215, pronouncement on the “extermination” of heretics, Internet History Sourcebooks Project canon 3, (exterminate) comes from the Latin exterminare, William Whitaker's Words which means to “drive out” (ex- out of + terminous- boundary). In Latin it does nor mean to destroy or kill, but to drive out of the territory. The official language of the Church is Latin. The Church does not change on this issue of capital punishment. Even pope Francis today is speaking out against capital punishment and there being no good reason for it…

The state otoh, is the one who legally executes criminals

A few things:

1. Exsurge Domine said it was an error to think that burning heretics was against the will of the Spirit. Or to take out the double negative, it is aligned with the will of the Holy Spirit to burn heretics.
2. It’s hard to take the reading of exterminate as that of banishment as accurate considering the amount of times the Church handed off heretics to various states to be executed.
3. Just because the Church would hand off those heretics doesn’t relieve it from its complicity in the death of those people. Knowing what was to be done to them and still passing them along does not assuage guilt in the slightest.

Re: Exsurge Domine, and burning of heretics,
Didn’t God wipe out Sodom and Gomorrah by fire?

The Church is against capital punishment. When I quoted the council of Florence, The Church was reiterating it’s stand on the subject. The Church has no power over secular governments and what the state does.

 

[ChunkMonk]

He did wipe out Sodom ans Gomorrah with fire, and they deserved it.

The Church is not against capital punishment. A few Popes have said it is imprudent to use it in most cases and one Pope has said it is contrary to the Gospel. The vast majority of the Popes either implicitly or explicitly allowed for it. The Church can correctly be said to hold the position that capital punishment is allowed, under certain circumstances.

Even Christ recognized the authority of Pilate, an unjust man about to use the most unjust instance of capital punishment in all of human history.

 

[IWantGod]

Even Christ recognized the authority of Pilate, an unjust man about to use the most unjust instance of capital punishment in all of human history.

Christ recognized the authority of Pilate, but that does not mean that he recognized the moral legitimacy of driving nails in to the hands and feet of criminals and leaving them to slowly die, possibly over a duration of several days.

 

[steve-b]

He did wipe out Sodom ans Gomorrah with fire, and they deserved it.

The other point is, according to Jesus most souls go to hell. Since Hell is described as unquenchable fire in scripture then burning heretics or any other sinner who dies in mortal sin, isn’t against the will of the Holy Spirit.

ChunkMonk:

The Church is not against capital punishment. A few Popes have said it is imprudent to use it in most cases and one Pope has said it is contrary to the Gospel. The vast majority of the Popes either implicitly or explicitly allowed for it. The Church can correctly be said to hold the position that capital punishment is allowed, under certain circumstances.

certain circumstances is the qualifying condition, and is hugely restrictive.
ChuchMonk:

Even Christ recognized the authority of Pilate, an unjust man about to use the most unjust instance of capital punishment in all of human history.

Jesus recognized the authority of the Scribes &Pharisees as well because they sit on Moses seat… And He also calls them out as fools, blind guides, hypocrites, whitewashed tombs…

Matthew 23:1-36 RSVCE - - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

 

[ChunkMonk]

He recognized the moral legitimacy of it both when he told Pilate it was God who gave him the authority (which authority? The authority over life and death) and when he commended the Good Thief who said he deserved to be crucified for his sins.

@steve-b

Certain circumstances is normally qualifying: murder, kidnapping, robbery, treason, rape, obstinant heresy, obstinant blasphemy, obstinant apostasy, terrorism, arson, serious theft… Have all, at one point or another, been rightly and justly punished by death.

Which furthers my point: even when the authority is foolish and evil, it still has the right to execute criminals for capital offences.

 

[steve-b]

He recognized the moral legitimacy of it both when he told Pilate it was God who gave him the authority (which authority? The authority over life and death) and when he commended the Good Thief who said he deserved to be crucified for his sins.

@steve-b

Certain circumstances is normally qualifying: murder, kidnapping, robbery, treason, rape, obstinant heresy, obstinant blasphemy, obstinant apostasy, terrorism, arson, serious theft… Have all, at one point or another, been rightly and justly punished by death.

Which furthers my point: even when the authority is foolish and evil, it still has the right to execute criminals for capital offences.

I would just say,

Don’t confuse freedom, with right

Eg.

A woman has the freedom to end innocent life in the womb. I would argue, They don’t have a right to do it.

 

[ChunkMonk]

God has the right to end life. We don’t (I hope) disagree with that.

Gos has the right to delegate that authority to whomever He pleases.

God told us that the State was given at least some of His authority over life and death.

The State therefore has the right to use capital punishment.

 

[steve-b]

God has the right to end life. We don’t (I hope) disagree with that.

Gos has the right to delegate that authority to whomever He pleases.

God told us that the State was given at least some of His authority over life and death.

The State therefore has the right to use capital punishment.

We all have the right to defend ourselves. War would certainly be an example of that. But if a person who is a threat to the community and others, is thoroughly contained, and they are no longer a threat to anyone, I would argue one should NOT kill them.

 

[ChunkMonk]

That would have to be a prudential judgement though. Because God did not mention ‘social safety’ as a concern when He instituted capital punishment and only very recently has the Church taken that to be of paramount importance, rather than just a mere consideration.

 

[IWantGod]

He recognized the moral legitimacy of it both when he told Pilate it was God who gave him the authority (which authority? The authority over life and death) and when he commended the Good Thief who said he deserved to be crucified for his sins.

Can you give me a quote please where Jesus says that Crucifixion is morally legitimate. A criminal saying that he deserves to die is not evidence that Jesus approves of Crucifixion. I think that’s your own interpretation.

 

[DaveBj]

We all have the right to defend ourselves. War would certainly be an example of that. But if a person who is a threat to the community and others, is thoroughly contained, and they are no longer a threat to anyone, I would argue one should NOT kill them.

That is a mighty big “if”. However, the reality is that the conditions that you have specified do not exist in the space-time continuum that we occupy.

D

 

[steve-b]

That would have to be a prudential judgement though. Because God did not mention ‘social safety’ as a concern when He instituted capital punishment and only very recently has the Church taken that to be of paramount importance, rather than just a mere consideration.

Actually on another thread I said

“the Lateran Council in 1215, pronouncement on the “extermination” of heretics, Internet History Sourcebooks Project canon 3, (exterminate) comes from the Latin exterminare, William Whitaker's Words which means to “drive out” (ex- out of + terminous- boundary). In Latin it does not mean to destroy or kill, but to drive out of the territory. The official language of the Church is Latin. And translations from one language to another sometimes get badly translated. Not to mention the polemic factor as well. I would just say, I’m not aware of the Church doing about faces on positions from ecumenical councils particularly concerning big matters like capital punishment. Even pope Francis today is speaking out against capital punishment and there being no good reason for it…”

The Church as you know, has no power over secular governments and what the state does.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

We all have the right to defend ourselves. War would certainly be an example of that. But if a person who is a threat to the community and others, is thoroughly contained, and they are no longer a threat to anyone, I would argue one should NOT kill them.

That is a mighty big “if”. However, the reality is that the conditions that you have specified do not exist in the space-time continuum that we occupy.

D

taking this out of the abstract, I can just say, I personally wouldn’t be putting a needle in anyone’s arm, or be the one to push the lever to deliver the fatal dose to anyone. The state sure can’t absolve me of such an act. But someone WILL deliver that dose

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Re: Exsurge Domine, and burning of heretics,
Didn’t God wipe out Sodom and Gomorrah by fire?

The Church is against capital punishment. When I quoted the council of Florence, The Church was reiterating it’s stand on the subject. The Church has no power over secular governments and what the state does.

Exsurge Domine was not stating whether the State has the right to burn heretics but whether The Holy Spirit approves of it or not. It says that it does, and that’s the domain of the Church. The Church approved of these burnings. Do we see a word from the Church during the time that it was handing over or pointing out heretics over to the State stating these people should not be burned? Just because they didn’t light the fires doesn’t mean they weren’t just as complicit in such disgusting acts. A mob member handing over a person to a mob enforcer to be killed is just as guilty.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

John 18:31: The Jews therefore said to him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death.

 

[DaveBj]

John 18:31: The Jews therefore said to him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death.

That was because at that time the Jews were under Roman domination, and the Romans had appropriated capital punishment to themselves. It had nothing to do with the Jews’ own Law.

D

 

[twf]

Mike - you’re right… but at the same time it should be said that the Church often did show and call for mercy where the state would not. While barbaric by modern standards, church courts tended to be more merciful than secular courts. It was a barbaric time.

 

[pianistclare]

Amen to those who rightly said the STATE did it, not the church