Has the country grown more socially/culturally liberal and fiscally conservative?

[MillTownCath]

On Fiscal Issues

In the good old days, people didn’t question the rights of workers to collectively bargin.

They didn’t constantly complain about taxes (which where much much higher back then)

We passed programs such as social security, medicare and medicaid. Nothing like that could ever get passed today. We funded schools and invested in our infrastructure.

Even in the 90’s, Congressional Republicans were fighting for THE VERY SAME MANDATE Obama has in his health care plan. (people have selective memory)

We cut taxes and then started two wars, forgetting that government is made protect the weak, not reward the rich and start unjust wars.

On Social Issues

Fewer and fewer young people attend a weekly church service, and view religious people as ignorant and a harm to society.

Marriage is seen as something created for themselves, instead of for creating family and children. People think marriage is a ‘right’.

People are demanding free birth control and plan B pill dispensers on college campuses.

It seems more and more people are adopting an Ayn Rand style society, one without God and morals, and without the belief that we must help the poor and needy of our society. We are our brother’s keeper.

Thoughts?

 

[meltzerboy]

I think the country has grown more fiscally conservative out of necessity: they (the middle class) simply don’t have as much money to spend as they once had. This has some influence on their charitable donations to the poor and needy as well. Still, from the social perspective, I think it’s mixed. With regard to personal lifestyle issues, such as contraception, abortion, gay marriage, undoubtedly the country has grown more liberal in its attitudes. But with regard to social policies involving helping one’s neighbor, BOTH conservatives and liberals continue to be as generous as they can, individually and organizationally, in the face of what many perceive as the greed of big business and corporate America. Liberals, as well as conservatives, have a tradition of helping others. Further, the anti-war sentiment in America has increased throughout the years, while union support and membership have declined significantly.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

On Fiscal Issues

In the good old days, people didn’t question the rights of workers to collectively bargin.

They didn’t constantly complain about taxes (which where much much higher back then)

We passed programs such as social security, medicare and medicaid. Nothing like that could ever get passed today. We funded schools and invested in our infrastructure.

Even in the 90’s, Congressional Republicans were fighting for THE VERY SAME MANDATE Obama has in his health care plan. (people have selective memory)

We cut taxes and then started two wars, forgetting that government is made protect the weak, not reward the rich and start unjust wars.

On Social Issues

Fewer and fewer young people attend a weekly church service, and view religious people as ignorant and a harm to society.

Marriage is seen as something created for themselves, instead of for creating family and children. People think marriage is a ‘right’.

People are demanding free birth control and plan B pill dispensers on college campuses.

It seems more and more people are adopting an Ayn Rand style society, one without God and morals, and without the belief that we must help the poor and needy of our society. We are our brother’s keeper.

Thoughts?

My thoughts:

On fiscal issues:

The US has gotten more conservative fiscally in a way, but at the same time hasn’t. What I mean is taxes get cut, but spending doesn’t. Not only that, but the government spends wastefully. So it’s hard to say if we are more conservative or not.

As for unions, I’d say we are about the same again. Because back in the day public sector unions didn’t exist. Private sector unions were stronger, and (sadly) they aren’t today. Now we have public sector unions that have gotten big that don’t function well and waste taxpayer dollars. They also promote socially liberal and immoral behavior.

But I don’t think congressional Republicans wanted to force Catholic institutions to provide abortifacients and contraceptives.

The last part is what confuses me; we spend so much on wars, which makes the US fiscally liberal, but at the same time we want lower taxes.

Social Issues:

Much more liberal. There are still some socially conservative parts in America, but it seems like they are too conservative (i.e intolerant of outside beliefs (Jack Chick anyone?) and for stuff like the death penalty and waterboarding). There aren’t many moderately socially conservative areas. Most of the heavily Catholic areas in America have adopted modernism over their Catholic faith. Some areas still are more Catholic and less modernistic (Milwaukee and Cleveland come to mind), but not many are.

I agree.

 

[FaithBuild18]

On Fiscal Issues

They didn’t constantly complain about taxes (which where much much higher back then)

Wait, what country are we talking about? In the good ol US of A, our country was largely founded by pissed off citizens who chiefly complained about absurd taxes. This has been a staple of my country (USA) for over 200 years now.

Or are you referring to the good ol days BEFORE income tax, social security, medicare, medicaid, etc, at which point taxes were not anywhere near what they are today? You know, the days when making $60k a year meant you actually got paid $60k a year.

 

[Dale_M]

Although the US has gotten more socially or culturally liberal, it has not gotten more fiscally conservative. What the US has become is tax averse. That is not the same as fiscally conservative. We have been cutting taxes, but not cutting government spending. The result has been a hemorrhage of red ink and a ballooning national debt. I don’t see how that can be considered fiscally conservative.

It could be said that the US has simply become more individualistic and less communal. We are more interested in individualism, cocooning in our homes and demanding to be “free to be me”, than in making a sacrifice for the common good.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m not sure the question is put in quite the right way.

I see it more in terms of growth of libertarianism, at least among many. True Libertarians are typically, well, “libertarian” on social issues and conservative fiscally.

Oddly, the Dem party has changed over the years from being fairly conservative socially and fairly liberal fiscally, to being utterly libertarian socially and ultra-liberal fiscally.

Also, perhaps strangely too, the Repubs have changed from being more or less “middling” both socially and fiscally, to more socially conservative than previously combined with a strange mix of fiscal conservatism and relative liberalism or at least “moderateness”.

It has seemed to me the parties have almost switched in this way. The Repubs now stand about where the Dems were decades ago, while the Dems stand closer to where the Rockefeller Repubs were decades ago.

But the real growth, it seems to me, is in libertarianism, more social than fiscal. As between Dem social libertarianism or true libertarianism, I am not sure which has influenced the other. I’m inclined to think it has been a parallel development. But when it comes to social libertarianism, the two are essentially indistinguishable.

When it comes to Repub fiscal policies, I don’t think they owe a whole lot to libertarianism. One can look at, say, Romney and Ron Paul and see that.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I’m not sure the question is put in quite the right way.

I see it more in terms of growth of libertarianism, at least among many. True Libertarians are typically, well, “libertarian” on social issues and conservative fiscally.

Oddly, the Dem party has changed over the years from being fairly conservative socially and fairly liberal fiscally, to being utterly libertarian socially and ultra-liberal fiscally.

Also, perhaps strangely too, the Repubs have changed from being more or less “middling” both socially and fiscally, to more socially conservative than previously combined with a strange mix of fiscal conservatism and relative liberalism or at least “moderateness”.

It has seemed to me the parties have almost switched in this way. The Repubs now stand about where the Dems were decades ago, while the Dems stand closer to where the Rockefeller Repubs were decades ago.

But the real growth, it seems to me, is in libertarianism, more social than fiscal. As between Dem social libertarianism or true libertarianism, I am not sure which has influenced the other. I’m inclined to think it has been a parallel development. But when it comes to social libertarianism, the two are essentially indistinguishable.

When it comes to Repub fiscal policies, I don’t think they owe a whole lot to libertarianism.** One can look at, say, Romney and Ron Paul and see that**.

Ha ha. Ron Paul IS a Libertarian, always has been, always will be. He just covers it all up so he can get elected as a Republican. That’s part of the problem with the GOP, the stealth Libertarians who have deserted their party’s platform outwardly but brought it with them into the GOP.

 

[Julia_Mae]

On Fiscal Issues

In the good old days, people didn’t question the rights of workers to collectively bargin.

So these were good old days that came after the older days where attempts to unionize were met with extreme violence and often the death of those wanting a union?

They didn’t constantly complain about taxes (which where much much higher back then)

I’m over 60. When was this fantasy time when Americans didn’t complain about taxes? Didn’t the whole revolution deal that led to the existence of the country start with a tax protest?

We cut taxes and then started two wars, forgetting that government is made protect the weak, not reward the rich and start unjust wars.

I don’t know who “we” is, but it doesn’t include me. We aging hippies, when we were newly-minted, protested the unjust illegal war to make rich Americans richer and were told to GET OUT of the Country that gave us the free speech to say what we said. Why would anyone do anything about it now? They didn’t then. Things don’t actually change, you know.

Marriage is seen as something created for themselves, instead of for creating family and children. People think marriage is a ‘right’.

Well, that’s better than it being a mandate.

It seems more and more people are adopting an Ayn Rand style society,

Rand wrote fantasy fiction for Henry Ford wannabees.

one without God and morals, and without the belief that we must help the poor and needy of our society. We are our brother’s keeper.

Forget our society, 25000 people a day die of starvation in the 3rd world so we can have iPhones.

Thoughts?

If it wasn’t for Jesus every single one of us would be damned.

 

[Jules_Verne]

On Fiscal Issues

In the good old days, people didn’t question the rights of workers to collectively bargin.

They didn’t constantly complain about taxes (which where much much higher back then)

We passed programs such as social security, medicare and medicaid. Nothing like that could ever get passed today. We funded schools and invested in our infrastructure.

Even in the 90’s, Congressional Republicans were fighting for THE VERY SAME MANDATE Obama has in his health care plan. (people have selective memory)

We cut taxes and then started two wars, forgetting that government is made protect the weak, not reward the rich and start unjust wars.

On Social Issues

Fewer and fewer young people attend a weekly church service, and view religious people as ignorant and a harm to society.

Marriage is seen as something created for themselves, instead of for creating family and children. People think marriage is a ‘right’.

People are demanding free birth control and plan B pill dispensers on college campuses.

It seems more and more people are adopting an Ayn Rand style society, one without God and morals, and without the belief that we must help the poor and needy of our society. We are our brother’s keeper.

Thoughts?

I agree that we have grown more socially liberal and fiscally conservative.

I don’t think people are losing faith in God completely so much as they are losing respect for religious authorities. The actions of the Catholic church regarding the pedophilia scandal have greatly undermined them as an authority of moral guidance. The Church keeps saying as an excuse, “But plenty of private organizations have hushed up abuse allegations to protect themselves!” They’re right, and by their own admission, they are no different from any other private organization. If they were, they wouldn’t have reacted like “other organizations.” They would have done the right thing. So, since the Church has admitted they’re no better and safeguarding morals and acting morally than a corporation is, I do not look to the Church for moral guidance anymore than I would look to General Motors or Kraft. That doesn’t mean that I can’t look to individual Catholics I respect for moral guidance, but it does mean I don’t see the Church as an institution as a moral compass.

The Catholic Church does not want to modernize to keep up with changing times, and that certainly is their right to do so. But they will only succeed in widening the gap between the Vatican and the parishoners.

I live in Massachusetts, the most heavily Catholic state in the country. Yet 58% of people support gay marriage and 86% support either marriage OR a civil union with the same rights as married couples. I only know 1 atheist, most people I know are either Jewish or Catholic (as I live in Boston, which is overwhelmingly Catholic with some Jewish settlements). I don’t know anyone under the age of 40 who is against gay marriage. I don’t know a single Catholic couple my age that does not use birth control (or at least hasn’t at one time). I don’t know a single Catholic my age (I’m in my 30s) who thinks mastrubation is wrong. And I know a lot of people.

Other churches are starting to change with the times. Here in Boston, there are many Christian churches which have gay flags flying in the front to show their support of homosexuals. Many churches even have their own floats in the gay pride parade!

Most people I know who are Catholic pretty much ignore the Vatican. They know that this makes hard lined Catholic not consider them Catholic, and they don’t care. They consider their individual parishes their Church and don’t really care about the hierarchy.

I don’t consider myself Catholic anymore. I presonally don’t think you can really reject the hierarchy and the Vatican and still really be a Catholic, so even though many people my age have done so and still consider themselves Catholic and receive the eucharist, I do not, and when I go to Mass I no longer take communion.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I agree that we have grown more socially liberal and fiscally conservative.

I don’t think people are losing faith in God completely so much as they are losing respect for religious authorities. The actions of the Catholic church regarding the pedophilia scandal have greatly undermined them as an authority of moral guidance. The Church keeps saying as an excuse, “But plenty of private organizations have hushed up abuse allegations to protect themselves!” They’re right, and by their own admission, they are no different from any other private organization. If they were, they wouldn’t have reacted like “other organizations.” They would have done the right thing. So, since the Church has admitted they’re no better and safeguarding morals and acting morally than a corporation is, I do not look to the Church for moral guidance anymore than I would look to General Motors or Kraft. That doesn’t mean that I can’t look to individual Catholics I respect for moral guidance, but it does mean I don’t see the Church as an institution as a moral compass.

The Catholic Church does not want to modernize to keep up with changing times, and that certainly is their right to do so. But they will only succeed in widening the gap between the Vatican and the parishoners.

I live in Massachusetts, the most heavily Catholic state in the country. Yet 58% of people support gay marriage and 86% support either marriage OR a civil union with the same rights as married couples. I only know 1 atheist, most people I know are either Jewish or Catholic (as I live in Boston, which is overwhelmingly Catholic with some Jewish settlements). I don’t know anyone under the age of 40 who is against gay marriage. I don’t know a single Catholic couple my age that does not use birth control (or at least hasn’t at one time). I don’t know a single Catholic my age (I’m in my 30s) who thinks mastrubation is wrong. And I know a lot of people.

Other churches are starting to change with the times. Here in Boston, there are many Christian churches which have gay flags flying in the front to show their support of homosexuals. Many churches even have their own floats in the gay pride parade!

Most people I know who are Catholic pretty much ignore the Vatican. They know that this makes hard lined Catholic not consider them Catholic, and they don’t care. They consider their individual parishes their Church and don’t really care about the hierarchy.

I don’t consider myself Catholic anymore. I presonally don’t think you can really reject the hierarchy and the Vatican and still really be a Catholic, so even though many people my age have done so and still consider themselves Catholic and receive the eucharist, I do not, and when I go to Mass I no longer take communion.

While it is not inevitable, sometimes one is a product of one’s environment.

 

[tvdxer]

From (secular) forums, it definitely seems liberal fiscal and socially conservative stances are unpopular with a lot of people.

I would disagree with the unqualified statement that our society has become only tax-averse and not fiscally conservative. There are a lot of people out there who are against not only taxation but government programs as well, especially welfare. These are many of the same people who believe in same-sex marriage, drug legalization, etc. They are the new independents, and their voice is growing louder and louder.

 

[tarboy]

Sorry MillTownCath, but it seems to have on coke bottle thick rose colored glasses. There were no ‘good old days’

On Fiscal Issues

In the good old days, people didn’t question the rights of workers to collectively bargin.YES they did! The right to bargin resulted from hard fought battles on the streets and in the courts.
People currently don’t question the ‘right’ to bargin, they just disagree on what is fair to bargin for.

They didn’t constantly complain about taxes (which where much much higher back then) People have always complained about taxes

We passed programs such as social security, medicare and medicaid. You are talking about very short time periods, post depression & post WW2, when the economy was flush.
These programs felt good, like when you buy a new house and a new car, but you bought on credit instead of paying cash. It’s a head rush!
Now the bill has come due on these ‘pay as you go’ programs, and they need restructuring. We’ve seen this coming since the 80’s

---

Nothing like that could ever get passed today. We funded schools and invested in our infrastructure. - We had more money for schools and infrastructure because the bill on entitlement programs was payable in the future.

- If we put SS and medicare tax rates back to their earlier levels, we would have more money for schools and infrastructure.

• Actually I think school funding has increased, not decreased. So we are getting less results for more money (not a finance issue)

Even in the 90’s, Congressional Republicans were fighting for THE VERY SAME MANDATE Obama has in his health care plan. (people have selective memory) -Please be specific and don’t use innuendos that we can’t comment upon.

We cut taxes and then started two wars, forgetting that government is made protect the weak, not reward the rich and start unjust wars. - On taxes - I’m also not convinced of value of tax cuts. I’d prefer we cut spending and kept taxes up, until we were 'in the black’

• Must ignore your other comments since it’s highly subjective as to what justifies conflict. However, you only need to study history to see that virtually all wars have economic drivers. Thus it’s naive and foolish to pretend we should suddenly be any different.

On Social Issues

Fewer and fewer young people attend a weekly church service, and view religious people as ignorant and a harm to society.- Sad but true

Marriage is seen as something created for themselves, instead of for creating family and children. People think marriage is a ‘right’.- Sad but true

People are demanding free birth control and plan B pill dispensers on college campuses. - Sadly, an obvious outcome of the above two points you made

It seems more and more people are adopting an Ayn Rand style society, one without God and morals, and without the belief that we must help the poor and needy of our society. We are our brother’s keeper. - I think they have morals or philosophy (relativism), which they try to enforce via law and govt policy.

• The shift has been from personal or family responsibility to Govt responsibility.
• They see the poor and needy, then tell the Govt to fix it.

Thoughts?