Has the Eastern Churches suffered from the "spirit of Vatican II''?

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lrcatholic95

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Being a Latin Riter I have seen some horrible things, I’ve seen the liturgy twisted, I’ve seen the statues taken down, I’ve seen CCD teach things close to heresy. Has the Eastern Churches suffered any of this…did they ride it out?? How did priest trying to make up for what the Council didn’t accomplish effect you guys…our Catholic brothers…If you have been unchanged do you feel sorry for us, and what made you different? (BTW I love the second Vatican council and Pope Paul VI…👍 )
 
lrcatholic95 said:
Being a Latin Riter I have seen some horrible things, I’ve seen the liturgy twisted, I’ve seen the statues taken down, I’ve seen CCD teach things close to heresy. Has the Eastern Churches suffered any of this…did they ride it out?? How did priest trying to make up for what the Council didn’t accomplish effect you guys…our Catholic brothers…If you have been unchanged do you feel sorry for us, and what made you different? (BTW I love the second Vatican council and Pope Paul VI…👍 )
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The Eastern Rites have been going through some changes of their own, but not as drastic as with the Latin Rite. Some of them lined up with the SSPX in a sort of Eastern wing, called the Society of St Josaphat.

More info: saintjosaphat.org/

The way I’ve had it explained to me, the Pope, etc wants them to align up more with the Orthodox Church, and give up trying to bring them into the Catholic Church. That’s one of the problems they’re having.
 
Zhenia said:
The Eastern Rites have been going through some changes of their own, but not as drastic as with the Latin Rite. Some of them lined up with the SSPX in a sort of Eastern wing, called the Society of St Josaphat.

More info: saintjosaphat.org/

The way I’ve had it explained to me, the Pope, etc wants them to align up more with the Orthodox Church, and give up trying to bring them into the Catholic Church. That’s one of the problems they’re having.
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Vatican II has been a great blessing for most of the Eastern catholic churches. We too have seen the removal of statues, alter rails, Latin style tabernacles, stations of the cross and MANY Latin devotions such as public recitation of the rosary, benediction and Stations of the cross. These things needed to go if we are to recapture an authentic Eastern tradition. 😃
 
Zhenia said:
The Eastern Rites have been going through some changes of their own, but not as drastic as with the Latin Rite. Some of them lined up with the SSPX in a sort of Eastern wing, called the Society of St Josaphat.

More info: saintjosaphat.org/

The way I’ve had it explained to me, the Pope, etc wants them to align up more with the Orthodox Church, and give up trying to bring them into the Catholic Church. That’s one of the problems they’re having.
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“give up trying to bring them into the Catholic Church”…this can only be said when one equates the Catholic Church with the Latin Church and denies the fact that the Catholic Church is really a communion of 23 Churches of which the Latin Church is only one.

We Eastern Catholics have a lot facing us. One of which is how some Catholics deem Catholicity on how Latin one is. That is the problem of the society of St Josaphat and of some in the Latin Church itself.
 
I’ve heard that the Society of Saint Josephat is against “de-Latinization”. Is this true? Its confusing as to which movement they are reaction to.
 
runningdude said:
I’ve heard that the Society of Saint Josephat is against “de-Latinization”. Is this true? Its confusing as to which movement they are reaction to.
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Yes the Society of St. Josephat is working (especially in the Ukraine) to KEEP Latinizations as part of the Byzantine church. 😦
 
Zhenia said:
The Eastern Rites have been going through some changes of their own, but not as drastic as with the Latin Rite. Some of them lined up with the SSPX in a sort of Eastern wing, called the Society of St Josaphat.

More info: saintjosaphat.org/

The way I’ve had it explained to me, the Pope, etc wants them to align up more with the Orthodox Church, and give up trying to bring them into the Catholic Church. That’s one of the problems they’re having.
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We nned to remember the Orthodox are fully Catholic, just not in communion with the Pope of Rome.
 
Zhenia said:
lrcatholic95;8175282:
Being a Latin Riter I have seen some horrible things, I’ve seen the liturgy twisted, I’ve seen the statues taken down, I’ve seen CCD teach things close to heresy. Has the Eastern Churches suffered any of this…did they ride it out?? How did priest trying to make up for what the Council didn’t accomplish effect you guys…our Catholic brothers…If you have been unchanged do you feel sorry for us, and what made you different?
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The Eastern Rites have been going through some changes of their own, but not as drastic as with the Latin Rite.
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How drastic really depends on the Church. In general, the various Byzantine Churches (some more so than others but on the whole) have escaped relatively unscathed. Not so some of the Oriental Churches. The Maronites, for example, are being strangled from within by an unending stream of Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations. The Syro-Malabars are similarly tainted. The Coptic and Syriac CCs, have been affected, too, but far less so, and it is my understanding that the Syro-Malankara Church has been affected even less. The Holy Synod of the Chaldean Church has made some heroic efforts to cleanse itself from the same taint, but not all bishops have implemented the restorations of the Synod. I’m not familiar enough with the Armenian and Ethiopian Churches to comment.
 
lrcatholic95 said:
Being a Latin Riter I have seen some horrible things, I’ve seen the liturgy twisted, I’ve seen the statues taken down, I’ve seen CCD teach things close to heresy. Has the Eastern Churches suffered any of this…did they ride it out?? How did priest trying to make up for what the Council didn’t accomplish effect you guys…our Catholic brothers…If you have been unchanged do you feel sorry for us, and what made you different? (BTW I love the second Vatican council and Pope Paul VI…👍 )
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It depends on which Eastern Catholic Church you’re referring to. As our dear brother, Malphono, will point out, the Maronites, at least here in the U.S., have been greatly affected by the “spirit” in much of their liturgical reforms; this includes, but is certainly not limited to, poor liturgical translations that reflect the current ICEL translation of the Roman Mass (now being corrected, thank the Maker [C3PO]).

The Ruthenians here in the U.S. also seem to have been affected by the same “spirit” with their Revised Divine Liturgy in which much has been abbreviated and the translation again mirrors the current ICEL translation of the Roman Mass.

As to theology, no. Vatican II did much to free Eastern Catholics’ consciences to follow their authentic Eastern/Oriental theologies and spiritualities rather than trying to “prove” their Catholicity by adopting Roman/Latin theologies and spiritualities (not that these are bad things in their own context). Vatican II was truly a breath of fresh air for Eastern Catholicism. While we have looked with saddness on the suffering that the Roman Church has inflicted upon itself, we have been grateful that Rome has truly embraced Catholicity by recongnizing that there is more than one approach to the one Faith than the Roman approach.

Personally I recognize we are still living in the wake of Vatican II and things are still calming down for the Roman Church. I believe that once it has regained in ballance, the Roman Church will be stronger and more effective in communicating the Gospel in the modern world than prior to the Council. But these things take time.
 
malphono said:
How drastic really depends on the Church. In general, the various Byzantine Churches (some more so than others but on the whole) have escaped relatively unscathed. Not so some of the Oriental Churches. The Maronites, for example, are being strangled from within by an unending stream of Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinizations. The Syro-Malabars are similarly tainted. The Coptic and Syriac CCs, have been affected, too, but far less so, and it is my understanding that the Syro-Malankara Church has been affected even less. The Holy Synod of the Chaldean Church has made some heroic efforts to cleanse itself from the same taint, but not all bishops have implemented the restorations of the Synod. I’m not familiar enough with the Armenian and Ethiopian Churches to comment.
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I believe we must’ve commented at roughly the same time! 😛
 
Has the Eastern Churches suffered from the "spirit of Vatican II’’?
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I would think that Vatican Councils I and II only applied to Catholic Churches in the West.
 
Phillip_Rolfes said:
I believe we must’ve commented at roughly the same time! 😛
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So it seems. 😃 😉
Phillip_Rolfes said:
As our dear brother, Malphono, will point out, the Maronites, at least here in the U.S., have been greatly affected by the “spirit” in much of their liturgical reforms; this includes, but is certainly not limited to, poor liturgical translations that reflect the current ICEL translation of the Roman Mass (now being corrected, thank the Maker [C3PO]).
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I could only wish that it were only in the US. Alas, it is not. It is far more serious than that and far more insidious than merely the less-than-stellar ICEL pseudo-translations. 😦 :mad:
 
malphono said:
So it seems. 😃 😉

I could only wish that it were only in the US. Alas, it is not. It is far more serious than that and far more insidious than merely the less-than-stellar ICEL pseudo-translations. 😦 :mad:
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Perhaps you can PM me some time with examples. I’m yet to attend a Maronite Liturgy, but I’d like to. I’d love to know how things were prior to the reforms of your Liturgy. I must confess myself sadly very ignorant of the Maronites and the rest of the Orientals. I truly am ashamed of my extensive ignorance of the rest of our Catholic and Oriental brethren.
 
ciero said:
Vatican II has been a great blessing for most of the Eastern catholic churches. We too have seen the removal of statues, alter rails, Latin style tabernacles, stations of the cross and MANY Latin devotions such as public recitation of the rosary, benediction and Stations of the cross. These things needed to go if we are to recapture an authentic Eastern tradition. 😃
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This is true. The only Latinization the Eastern Catholic church I was involved with had was pews, as I recall, I don’t know if they used to be more Latinized than that, but I started going there in the early 1990s and the only Latinization at that time were the pews.
 
ciero said:
Yes the Society of St. Josephat is working (especially in the Ukraine) to KEEP Latinizations as part of the Byzantine church. 😦
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True, which is strange, when you consider that the Latinizations were artificial ADDITIONS from the WEST, and not the original way of the Eastern Catholics!

But as I understand it, the real problem they have is with the changed definition of ecumenism…they see ecumenism as the effort of the ECs to bring the EOs into the RCC.
 
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ciero:
We nned to remember the Orthodox are fully Catholic, just not in communion with the Pope of Rome.

If they are schismatic (not accepting the Papacy), how can they be fully Catholic?
 
I just want to say I have deep respect for the Eastern Rites, for their rituals, liturgies, and unique history…I just saw what happened to my beloved rite ( a holy theologically packed beautiful Mass which gave way to a simpler but still holy beautiful Mass perverted by many who wish to form the Church in their image) and I don’t want it to happen to the other beautiful holy rites.
 
lrcatholic95 said:
I just want to say I have deep respect for the Eastern Rites, for their rituals, liturgies, and unique history…I just saw what happened to my beloved rite ( a holy theologically packed beautiful Mass which gave way to a simpler but still holy beautiful Mass perverted by many who wish to form the Church in their image) and I don’t want it to happen to the other beautiful holy rites.
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I totally understand your sentiment, and fully agree!
 
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