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We have lost the Offertory with the Novus Ordo Mass. What about in the Maronite Liturgy? Has their Offertory remained pretty much intact? Your help is greatly appreciated!
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malphono
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This one is easy. The answer is no, it hasn’t. Not by a longshot.
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mardukm
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My question would be - when did hte Novus Ordo ever lose the Offertory?
I’ve been attending Novus Ordo Masses here in the Philippines, and I’ve never been to one without the Offertory prayers.Blessings,
Marduk
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There is now no Offertory just Preparation of the Gifts.My question would be - when did hte Novus Ordo ever lose the Offertory?
Blessings,
Marduk
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Could you help me understand how the Offertory has changed in the Maronite liturgy? Do they still have an Offertory or do they, like the Latin Church, now have Preparation of the Gifts? Thanks for any help you can offer.This one is easy. The answer is no, it hasn’t. Not by a longshot.
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malphono
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Well, over the centuries the Offertory became disjointed, with a small part during the Rite of Preparation, and a larger part (very much out of place due to latinization of rubrics) in lieu of the Rite of Incense. Originally, it was split, but differently: The larger part of it was included in the Rite of Preparation (along with an incensation of the offerings), while the final prayer was done just after the Creed and just before the beginning of the Anaphora. (This is more-or-less the way it is done by the SOC. The Chaldeans, OTOH, sort of reverse the order, with the small part during the Preparation and the large part later). The oblation was prepared and veiled either on the altar itself (as does the SOC) or on a small table against the north wall of the sanctuary (as do the Chaldeans).
In current practice there is a barely noticeable vestigial Rite of Preparation (which is often done by a deacon or subdeacon, and often without even saying the abbreviated prayers in the missal) and has no true reference to offering. This is now normally done on a side table, sometimes in the sanctuary, and sometimes not. The offertory itself is now done after the Creed, exactly where it is in the Novus Ordo, and includes a Novus Ordo-style “offertory procession” (usually by members of the laity), a total of two very watered-down prayers, and an incensation (normally using a hymn which has absolutely nothing to do with an offering). It’s very clearly a purely Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinization.
One look and you’ll know what I mean.
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Thanks for the explanation. The Consecration in the Maronite Mass has not been changed at all has it? Is the Consecration in the Maronite Mass possibly doubtful like it is in the Latin rite Mass? Does the lack of a good Offertory in the Maronite Mass effect the validity of the Consecration do you think? Peace!Well, over the centuries the Offertory became disjointed, with a small part during the Rite of Preparation, and a larger part (very much out of place due to latinization of rubrics) in lieu of the Rite of Incense. Originally, it was split, but differently: The larger part of it was included in the Rite of Preparation (along with an incensation of the offerings), while the final prayer was done just after the Creed and just before the beginning of the Anaphora. (This is more-or-less the way it is done by the SOC. The Chaldeans, OTOH, sort of reverse the order, with the small part during the Preparation and the large part later). The oblation was prepared and veiled either on the altar itself (as does the SOC) or on a small table against the north wall of the sanctuary (as do the Chaldeans).
In current practice there is a barely noticeable vestigial Rite of Preparation (which is often done by a deacon or subdeacon, and often without even saying the abbreviated prayers in the missal) and has no true reference to offering. This is now normally done on a side table, sometimes in the sanctuary, and sometimes not. The offertory itself is now done after the Creed, exactly where it is in the Novus Ordo, and includes a Novus Ordo-style “offertory procession” (usually by members of the laity), a total of two very watered-down prayers, and an incensation (normally using a hymn which has absolutely nothing to do with an offering). It’s very clearly a purely Novus Ordo-inspired neo-latinization.
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malphono
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Pleasure.
I think I understand what you mean, but I would be remiss if I did not point out that the concept of “the consecration” is strictly a Western one, born of Scholastic theology, and does not really come into play in any Oriental or Eastern Church. IOW, it takes more than just those words to effect the Most Holy Sacrament.
As much as I’ve never been a fan of the Novus Ordo (when in a Latin church I’m strictly a Usus Antiquior person) I don’t think “doubtful” applies even there. See below.
Again, while I think I know the meaning, the concept of “validity” is something straight out of the Scholastic playbook and is somewhat alien to the Orient and East (albeit that most Maronite priests do, unfortunately, espouse Latin theology). In any case, I have to say no, the Offertory doesn’t affect “validity” as such. OTOH, other things can. For the purpose at hand, what I will say is that, as much as I dislike the current Missal and as much as it is not my cup of tea, (about as far from that as one can get without going to the Novus Ordo itself), it is approved and consequently is “valid” as is the Novus Ordo.
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