Has the Orthodox Church ever taught any contradictory dogmas/doctrines?

[suissemissed]

If infallibility is a term coined up, then all ecumenical councils would be in question.

That was my line of thinking… how can any Council’s dogmatic definitions be trusted, including the first seven, if the Holy Spirit didn’t protect them from error?

 

[suissemissed]

Ah no! The church already tackled the issue if a baptism is valid or not…a long time ago. Baptisms under the Trinitarian formula and water are all valid. The Roman CC is more commonly known as the Latin Rite.

To use the language of the Second Vatican Council, the Body of Christ “subsists in” the Catholic Church. Baptism incorporates one into this Body, but if communion with a Catholic bishop is not established, then one does not participate in the Body as fully as Christ wishes. The “branch” theory, as accepted by some Anglicans, is rejected by the Catholic Church and all the Orthodox Churches.

 

[CopticChristian]

Ah no! The church already tackled the issue if a baptism is valid or not…a long time ago. Baptisms under the Trinitarian formula and water are all valid. The Roman CC is more commonly known as the Latin Rite.

I am getting a Charley horse between my ears here…

Roman Catholic Church is Latin Rite and Eastern Rites as I understand it…the Latin Rite is the largest of the two…

 

[suissemissed]

I am getting a Charley horse between my ears here…

Roman Catholic Church is Latin Rite and Eastern Rites as I understand it…the Latin Rite is the largest of the two…

I think Nicaea325 meant that the term “Roman Catholic Church” is not quite the proper way to describe the Church as a whole, since there are Churches within our communion that are Eastern, not Roman. The best term would simply be “the Catholic Church” when referring to the communion as a whole.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think Nicaea325 meant that the term “Roman Catholic Church” is not quite the proper way to describe the Church as a whole, since there are Churches within our communion that are Eastern, not Roman. The best term would simply be “the Catholic Church” when referring to the communion as a whole.

no disrespect but Nicea can answer for Nicea and to think you know what Nicea thinks as a means to clarify robs me of the opportunity to know what Nicea thinks and does not satisfy my desire to know what Nicea thinks. In fact it frustrates me and causes me to feel sad.

 

[Reuben_J]

I think Nicaea325 meant that the term “Roman Catholic Church” is not quite the proper way to describe the Church as a whole, since there are Churches within our communion that are Eastern, not Roman. The best term would simply be “the Catholic Church” when referring to the communion as a whole.

The term ‘Roman Catholic Church’ is quite contraversial considering the way it came about. We were just Catholic Church before until more catholic churches being formed. So the name is imposed upon us to differentiate us from the other catholic churches.

Catholics can be rightly be dismayed by this term especially when they trace its origin. Eastern Churches who are in communion with Rome also can object to this being imposed on them. Nevertheless, the term stuck and for practical purpose we are known by it and when we use it, people would know what we refer to.

As long as we understand that the term means the Catholic Church then it should be alright but for those Catholics who oppose to it, then they can be more specific or less. Specific like using the various rites or generalize by just using Catholic Church.

 

[suissemissed]

no disrespect but Nicea can answer for Nicea and to think you know what Nicea thinks as a means to clarify robs me of the opportunity to know what Nicea thinks and does not satisfy my desire to know what Nicea thinks. In fact it frustrates me and causes me to feel sad.

Hehe, my apologies, I’ll allow Nicaea to respond personally, so that you can learn from Nicaea what Nicaea thinks about the matter and not be sad

 

[Peter_J]

I am getting a Charley horse between my ears here…

Roman Catholic Church is Latin Rite and Eastern Rites as I understand it…the Latin Rite is the largest of the two…

At the risk of being overly picky, if you mean to include both Latin Catholics and Eastern Catholics, it’s better to say “Roman Communion” rather than “Roman Catholic Church”. There really is no Roman Church.

“Latin Rite” is also a common misnomer. There’s a Latin Church, not a Latin Rite.

 

[CopticChristian]

At the risk of being overly picky, if you mean to include both Latin Catholics and Eastern Catholics, it’s better to say “Roman Communion” rather than “Roman Catholic Church”. There really is no Roman Church.

“Latin Rite” is also a common misnomer. There’s a Latin Church, not a Latin Rite.

I don’t mind someone being overly picky, if I mean to include Latin Catholics and Eastern Catholics then as you say Latin Rite is a misnomer…because there is a Latin Church not a Latin Rite…got it…can you do me a favor and correct these guys…

These guys need some help…

catholicculture.org/culture/library/catechism/index.cfm?recnum=4062

1233 **Today in all the rites, Latin and Eastern, **the Christian initiation of adults begins with their entry into the catechumenate and reaches its culmination in a single celebration of the three sacraments of initiation: Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist. 37 In the Eastern rites the Christian initiation of infants also begins with Baptism followed immediately by Confirmation and the Eucharist, while in the Roman rite it is followed by years of catechesis before being completed later by Confirmation and the Eucharist, the summit of their Christian initiation. 38

The Universal Catechism needs some correction…

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a2.htm

V. THE MINISTER OF CONFIRMATION

1312 The original minister of Confirmation is the bishop.130

**In the East, **ordinarily the priest who baptizes also immediately confers Confirmation in one and the same celebration. But he does so with sacred chrism consecrated by the patriarch or the bishop, thus expressing the apostolic unity of the Church whose bonds are strengthened by the sacrament of Confirmation. In the Latin Church, the same discipline applies to the Baptism of adults or to the reception into full communion with the Church of a person baptized in another Christian community that does not have valid Confirmation.131

1313** In the Latin Rite, the **ordinary minister of Confirmation is the bishop.132 If the need arises, the bishop may grant the faculty of administering Confirmation to priests,133 although it is fitting that he confer it himself, mindful that the celebration of Confirmation has been temporally separated from Baptism for this reason. Bishops are the successors of the apostles. They have received the fullness of the sacrament of Holy Orders. The administration of this sacrament by them demonstrates clearly that its effect is to unite those who receive it more closely to the Church, to her apostolic origins, and to her mission of bearing witness to Christ.

I don’t want to be picky either but you just confused the heck out of me…

 

[Peter_J]

can you do me a favor and correct these guys…

Maybe you should try. I’ve been trying for about 5 years to get people to understand that “church” and “rite” don’t mean the same thing, yet they still keep posting stuff like “the 22 Eastern Catholic Rites …”. After a while one starts to wonder, what’s the point of correcting them?

The Universal Catechism needs some correction…

That’s possible, but for the sake of internet-forum discussion I tend to assume that it doesn’t.

 

[Nicea325]

I am getting a Charley horse between my ears here…

Roman Catholic Church is Latin Rite and Eastern Rites as I understand it…the Latin Rite is the largest of the two…

More correct…the Latin Church in communion with Eastern Rites.

 

[Nicea325]

That was my line of thinking… how can any Council’s dogmatic definitions be trusted, including the first seven, if the Holy Spirit didn’t protect them from error?

Exactly!

 

[Nicea325]

QUOTE=Peter J;10623981]At the risk of being overly picky, if you mean to include both Latin Catholics and Eastern Catholics, it’s better to say “Roman Communion” rather than “Roman Catholic Church”. There really is no Roman Church.

“Latin Rite” is also a common misnomer. There’s a Latin Church, not a Latin Rite.

 

[CopticChristian]

QUOTE=Peter J;10623981]At the risk of being overly picky, if you mean to include both Latin Catholics and Eastern Catholics, it’s better to say “Roman Communion” rather than “Roman Catholic Church”. There really is no Roman Church.

“Latin Rite” is also a common misnomer. There’s a Latin Church, not a Latin Rite.

Wow,

You need to talk to EWTN about this…

ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm

There are three major groupings of Rites based on this initial transmission of the faith, the Roman, the Antiochian (Syria) and the Alexandrian (Egypt). Later on the Byzantine derived as a major Rite from the Antiochian, under the influence of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom. From these four derive the over 20 liturgical Rites present in the Church today

.

ROMAN/LATIN FAMILY OF LITURGICAL RITES
The Church of Rome is the Primatial See of the world and one of the five Patriarchal Sees of the early Church (Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem).

Mass celebrated in accordance with the Missal of 1962 constitutes the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite.

• Roman – The overwhelming majority of Latin Catholics and of Catholics in general.

Eastern Rites and Churches
The Eastern Catholic Churches have their own hierarchy, system of governance (synods) and general law, the Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches. The Supreme Pontiff exercises his primacy over them through the Congregation for the Eastern Churches.

ANTIOCHIAN FAMILY OF LITURGICAL RITES
The Church of Antioch in Syria (the ancient Roman Province of Syria) is considered an apostolic See by virtue of having been founded by St. Peter.

So it looks like there is the Roman Catholic Church of Western and Eastern Rites

 

[Peter_J]

• Roman – The overwhelming majority of Latin Catholics and of Catholics in general.

That really gets to the heart of the matter: the majority of Latin Catholics (i.e. members of the Latin Church) are Roman Rite. That doesn’t change the fact that there are also, in the Latin Church, other rites such as the Ambrosian Rite, the Mozarabic Rite, and the Bragan Rite.

But having said that, I’ll be surprised if we ever see the cessation of posts that conflate church with rite. Such is the internet.

 

[twf]

That really gets to the heart of the matter: the majority of Latin Catholics (i.e. members of the Latin Church) are Roman Rite. That doesn’t change the fact that there are also, in the Latin Church, other rites such as the Ambrosian Rite, the Mozarabic Rite, and the Bragan Rite.

But having said that, I’ll be surprised if we ever see the cessation of posts that conflate church with rite. Such is the internet.

Yes, unfortunately, as other posters have pointed out, even official Church documents have, at times, confused matters. There hasn’t always been consistency. To my mind, we should be using:

• Roman Rite - the rite celebrated by the vast majority of Latin Catholic parishes as codified in either the 1962 or 1970 Roman Missals promulgated by the Holy See
• Roman Church - the Diocese of Rome - a local church within the larger Latin Church of which the Pope is bishop
• Latin Church - the largest Church sui iuris within the Catholic Communion, comprised of approximately 2000 local particular churches of the Western tradition who fall under the immediate jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome as de facto Patriarch and primarily worship according to the Roman Rite
• Latin Rites - generic term for all Western rites, of which the Roman is one (would also include the Ambrosian, Dominican, etc)

 

[Chan26]

**Lord, by your cross and resurrection
you have set us free.
You are the Savior of the world.
**

I believe this and thank you Lord.
It’s unfortunate but understandable that organized religions work at forging new chains with which to bind us. They are afraid because your words are free and free us. No one can make money or amass power by preaching your words. It’s only by enslaving us that they gain power and wealth–that’s the human character.

The example of your life and your words teaches us to sever our love of power and wealth, that’s why they had to kill you. If you were here today, saying what you said, organized religion would kill you today.

I remain a Catholic because parish priests have usually enlightened me and I believe it remains the best vehicle for finding and ultimately understanding your desire for us.
chan26

 

[PJM]

=JD27076;10513341]The Catholic Church hasn’t because we have the charism of infallibility and cannot err from the faith.

However, if I am correct, the Orthodox do not share in the same charism of infallibility as we do.

From this, has the Orthodox Church ever taught anything contradictory?

Thank you.

TWICE that we know of:

Denying the Papacy as God’s singular choice

Defining the Trinity

But discussions are ungoing; and God Willing Pope Francis will with God’s Grace; return unity to God’s Church. Amen

 

[Peter_J]

Yes, unfortunately, as other posters have pointed out, even official Church documents have, at times, confused matters. There hasn’t always been consistency. To my mind, we should be using:

• Roman Rite - the rite celebrated by the vast majority of Latin Catholic parishes as codified in either the 1962 or 1970 Roman Missals promulgated by the Holy See
• Roman Church - the Diocese of Rome - a local church within the larger Latin Church of which the Pope is bishop
• Latin Church - the largest Church sui iuris within the Catholic Communion, comprised of approximately 2000 local particular churches of the Western tradition who fall under the immediate jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome as de facto Patriarch and primarily worship according to the Roman Rite
• Latin Rites - generic term for all Western rites, of which the Roman is one (would also include the Ambrosian, Dominican, etc)

Plus I’d say that “Roman Communion” is a legitimate term for everyone in communion with Rome, i.e. the whole Catholic Church.