Has the Pope endorsed socialized medicine?

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I’m actively committed to finding the truth about Catholicism. Consequently I’ve narrowed my field of focus down to a few key questions. As per my title, this question is one those of great concern to me. Hopefully I’ve the right forum. If not, please re-direct me.

Straight up, it’s my opinion that Christ’s Church should be taking care of it’s own, not some worldly (and likely anti-Christian) government agency. I simply can’t see any situation where Christ’s Spokesman would endorse such. If the Pope has done this, then I’d find it unlikely he’s speaking for Christ.

Please feel free to correct anything you believe I have wrong here.
 
I’m actively committed to finding the truth about Catholicism. Consequently I’ve narrowed my field of focus down to a few key questions. As per my title, this question is one those of great concern to me. Hopefully I’ve the right forum. If not, please re-direct me.

Straight up, it’s my opinion that Christ’s Church should be taking care of it’s own, not some worldly (and likely anti-Christian) government agency. I simply can’t see any situation where Christ’s Spokesman would endorse such. If the Pope has done this, then I’d find it unlikely he’s speaking for Christ.

Please feel free to correct anything you believe I have wrong here.
Are you saying that socialized medicine is evil and against Jesus? You are an American that is also a republican, aren’t you? Do you think all the Catholics in Canada and other countries with socialized medicine should be fighting to take it away?
 
There is this, from the Catechism:

Respect for health

2288 Life and physical health are precious gifts entrusted to us by God. We must take reasonable care of them, taking into account the needs of others and the common good.

Concern for the health of its citizens requires that society help in the attainment of living-conditions that allow them to grow and reach maturity: food and clothing, housing, health care, basic education, employment, and social assistance.

It doesn’t say the government, in particular, but society has the responsibility to help with healthcare. You could interpret it several ways, I guess.
 
Are you saying that socialized medicine is evil and against Jesus? You are an American that is also a republican, aren’t you? Do you think all the Catholics in Canada and other countries with socialized medicine should be fighting to take it away?
**People can respectfully disagree on the best method to provide health care to everyone!
**
**It is very destructive to try to demean people by categorizing them or calling them names!
**

One thing we can all agree upon, the government is always a last resort & never should be seen as our savior! Jesus Christ is our Savior!!!

**We never want to sound like the Pharisees that said " And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” (Mt 9:11)
**
**Jesus denounced this divisive rhetoric by teaching us; “Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mt 9:13).
**
**Jesus desires Mercy, not sacrifice!
**
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
 
There is nothing wrong with the government paying for (through taxes) and providing a national health care system. In Britain, we are very proud to have it and most people want it. Yes it can be improved but in principle very few seem to be against it.
 
I think you have a misunderstanding about how the Pope speaks for Christ. If the Pope thinks that Toyotas are better than Hondas, and says so, that does not mean that Christ believes (and therefore it is true) that Toyotas are better than Hondas.

The Pope only speaks infallibly for Christ when making certain types of statements relating to doctrine or morality. That we (children of God) are morally obligated to provide health care to all people is a moral statement, and as such it could be infallible–though I doubt anyone would debate it. If the Pope says that universal health care is the best way to fulfill this obligation, he is speaking as to his own opinions, not for Christ’s.

So don’t hang your beliefs about the truth of the Church upon the Pope or any other Catholic’s political beliefs or statements. Popes have certainly been wrong about political matters in the past, just as you and I will also be wrong about such matters. The Pope, however, has never been and will never be wrong about doctrine or morality.
 
One (I won’t go into the other issues I have with it) of my MAJOR concerns on the “Socialized Medicine” is that my PROLIFE tax dollars are going to be used to fund ABORTIONS! I don’t understand how it could be felt that this would be a help to ANYONE more like tying a milestone around their neck.
 
Look guys, I came here seeking God. Not arguments about socialized health. If you want to go there though, I’ve only got this to say.

I’ll gladly give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s.

Caesar didn’t create me. God did. When it comes to my life and health, I’ll trust Him. Not some government bureaucracy; especially not one ran by people who hate God. If you’re too blind to see that, take it up with your Creator.
 
I think you have a misunderstanding about how the Pope speaks for Christ. If the Pope thinks that Toyotas are better than Hondas, and says so, that does not mean that Christ believes (and therefore it is true) that Toyotas are better than Hondas.

The Pope only speaks infallibly for Christ when making certain types of statements relating to doctrine or morality. That we (children of God) are morally obligated to provide health care to all people is a moral statement, and as such it could be infallible–though I doubt anyone would debate it. If the Pope says that universal health care is the best way to fulfill this obligation, he is speaking as to his own opinions, not for Christ’s.

So don’t hang your beliefs about the truth of the Church upon the Pope or any other Catholic’s political beliefs or statements. Popes have certainly been wrong about political matters in the past, just as you and I will also be wrong about such matters. The Pope, however, has never been and will never be wrong about doctrine or morality.
Thank you for a direct answer. Perhaps I expect too much from the Pope, for I not only expect infallible doctrine, but exceptional wisdom. If he fails in this, then it isn’t only he who fails but also those Church leaders who prayed and placed him into power. Aren’t they suppose to be the best of the best, the holiest of the holy? If he and they are not that, then who can I trust?

At a CARM forum, I once stated that I**'m a mere fallible human being** and am unable to sort out all of the disagreements about Scripture and doctrine. I listened to the Catholics there as they spoke. I believed much of what they said and so came here to hopefully find God, If this Churches leadership might be unwise as you say they might be, then I can only trust in my fallibility again. How have you improved my hope?
 
Thank you for a direct answer. Perhaps I expect too much from the Pope, for I not only expect infallible doctrine, but exceptional wisdom. If he fails in this, then it isn’t only he who fails but also those Church leaders who prayed and placed him into power. Aren’t they suppose to be the best of the best, the holiest of the holy? If he and they are not that, then who can I trust?

At a CARM forum, I once stated that I**'m a mere fallible human being** and am unable to sort out all of the disagreements about Scripture and doctrine. I listened to the Catholics there as they spoke. I believed much of what they said and so came here to hopefully find God, If this Churches leadership might be unwise as you say they might be, then I can only trust in my fallibility again. How have you improved my hope?
Your rationale confuses me. You say you realize that you are a mere fallible human being, and so you were drawn to Catholicism . . . yet you’re holding the Pope to your own standard about what is wise? The Pope is only wise if his opinion on healthcare conforms to yours? :confused:
 
Thank you for a direct answer. Perhaps I expect too much from the Pope, for I not only expect infallible doctrine, but exceptional wisdom. If he fails in this, then it isn’t only he who fails but also those Church leaders who prayed and placed him into power. Aren’t they suppose to be the best of the best, the holiest of the holy? If he and they are not that, then who can I trust?

At a CARM forum, I once stated that I**'m a mere fallible human being** and am unable to sort out all of the disagreements about Scripture and doctrine. I listened to the Catholics there as they spoke. I believed much of what they said and so came here to hopefully find God, If this Churches leadership might be unwise as you say they might be, then I can only trust in my fallibility again. How have you improved my hope?
I suspect, first of all, that the Pope does have exceptional wisdom. I got my degree in religious studies as a protestant. I studied what I would consider the brightest minds in protestantism. They don’t come anywhere NEAR the top (or even “good”) minds in Catholicism. I’m currently reading a book by PJPII, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, and his treatment of extremely complex philosophical issues and of modern political issues is absolutely unbelievable. I have never read such a brilliant modern writer. And, to boot, I understand the book is primarily his answers to an interview, not a planned and carefully edited book. I have not read as much by the Pope either as Pope or as Cardinal Ratzinger, but what I have read seems certainly in the same league–and by in the same league, I mean leagues and leagues above nearly all other writers in this era or prior ones. This, of course, is not uncommon among Catholic writers; I could name a dozen other Catholic authors that exceed their protestant (or atheist, or Islamic) counterparts by miles. Whether this is because wise people naturally chose Catholicism, or Catholicism makes people wise, I cannot say. Granted, this is my anecdotal experience, and there are exceptions, but I challenge you to read the authors I have read (and add any others) and come to a different conclusion.

Now, extremely wise people can still make mistakes. If you are certain that universal healthcare is a poor choice, that does not mean that someone who supports it cannot be extremely wise. Looking at all the great thinkers throughout history, there is not one that did not make a number of noteworthy mistakes. If you knew that, say, Thomas Aquinas was the head of the Church, you would find him uncommonly wise, no? But he also made mistakes. Or, say, if you knew that Einstein was the head of a physics department, you would think this department extremely wise, no? But Einstein also made significant mistakes.

But more importantly, even if the above things were not true, I still think you can rest assured you have found an infallible source in the Church. Even as a pretty fanatical Catholic, I do not typically trust the Church on prudential issues–there is simply no need to. I don’t turn to Christ for political guidance or the like, but for spiritual guidance. And as I and others have said, on spiritual matters, I firmly believe the Church makes no mistakes. You are looking for an infallible source for spirituality; you have found one. It seems perhaps that you are also looking for infallible source for political guidance. Would you agree that even if God existed, and even if Christ was His Church, a source of infallible political guidance would not exist?

I don’t think that, when the Pope decides matters of spirituality as we do, by siting down, thinking about it, and simply choosing what seems the best answer, still unsure. I suspect that he prays over the issues, studies them, and comes to the correct answer, knowing that Christ would not have let him come to the wrong one. Through the last 2,000 years, the Church has never made a mistake with an infallible proclamation. If it had, do you not think non-Catholics would constantly use it to prove the pontiff is not, in fact, infallible?

Does this address your question?
 
No, the Pope has not endorsed socialized medicine, or any specific political position on how to fulfill our obligations to one another.

The church tries to stay out of politics, except when they infringe on God’s laws, such as in the case of laws allowing abortion. For that reason we are enjoined to carefully study the views of political candidates and avoid voting for those who support abortion. But even then the church does not specifically name candidates that we should vote for or against.
 
I agree with camerong that the present Pope does in fact have exceptional wisdom. But that does not mean that he has the ability to evaluate or to prescribe the political conditions for every nation on the planet, or to evaluate methods of health care delivery. Obviously, that is beyond even his exceptional wisdom.

And further, it is not even part of his charism as leader of the Church. The primary duty of a pope–any pope–exceptional wisdom or none, is to preserve the faith as it was handed down from the Apostles.

Finally, the best socialized health care system in the world will be of no avail if a country devolves into bankruptcy and chaos. And that is well within the parameters of probability for the United States and the globe.
 
Recent Popes from Leo XIII on have written about the rights of human beings. There is believed to be a universal right of all humans to a job with a living wage, sufficient food, shelter, health care, and for the working man to collective bargaining,i.e. unions. There are various ways of taking care of these human rights. Sometimes it falls to governments to “make it happen” when the actions of smaller units can’t get the job done. That is not an endorsement of secular socialism or communism wherein the individual is submerged in the state.
 
Your rationale confuses me. You say you realize that you are a mere fallible human being, and so you were drawn to Catholicism . . . yet you’re holding the Pope to your own standard about what is wise? The Pope is only wise if his opinion on healthcare conforms to yours? :confused:
If the Pope has contributed to the anti-God, immoral, baby killing, secular socialism that’s is rabidly taking over Western civilization, then yes, I take issue with him. I came here only to find out what the Pope has or has not done to stop the spread of this world wide disease.

If I’m going to be Catholic I must know I’m following good men, and as naive as it may sound, I want the Pope to my hero, a man I can, if necessary, follow to the cross. God’s chosen voice should be no less.
 
I suspect, first of all, that the Pope does have exceptional wisdom. I got my degree in religious studies as a protestant. I studied what I would consider the brightest minds in protestantism. They don’t come anywhere NEAR the top (or even “good”) minds in Catholicism. I’m currently reading a book by PJPII, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, and his treatment of extremely complex philosophical issues and of modern political issues is absolutely unbelievable. I have never read such a brilliant modern writer. And, to boot, I understand the book is primarily his answers to an interview, not a planned and carefully edited book. I have not read as much by the Pope either as Pope or as Cardinal Ratzinger, but what I have read seems certainly in the same league–and by in the same league, I mean leagues and leagues above nearly all other writers in this era or prior ones. This, of course, is not uncommon among Catholic writers; I could name a dozen other Catholic authors that exceed their protestant (or atheist, or Islamic) counterparts by miles. Whether this is because wise people naturally chose Catholicism, or Catholicism makes people wise, I cannot say. Granted, this is my anecdotal experience, and there are exceptions, but I challenge you to read the authors I have read (and add any others) and come to a different conclusion.

Now, extremely wise people can still make mistakes. If you are certain that universal healthcare is a poor choice, that does not mean that someone who supports it cannot be extremely wise. Looking at all the great thinkers throughout history, there is not one that did not make a number of noteworthy mistakes. If you knew that, say, Thomas Aquinas was the head of the Church, you would find him uncommonly wise, no? But he also made mistakes. Or, say, if you knew that Einstein was the head of a physics department, you would think this department extremely wise, no? But Einstein also made significant mistakes.

But more importantly, even if the above things were not true, I still think you can rest assured you have found an infallible source in the Church. Even as a pretty fanatical Catholic, I do not typically trust the Church on prudential issues–there is simply no need to. I don’t turn to Christ for political guidance or the like, but for spiritual guidance. And as I and others have said, on spiritual matters, I firmly believe the Church makes no mistakes. You are looking for an infallible source for spirituality; you have found one. It seems perhaps that you are also looking for infallible source for political guidance. Would you agree that even if God existed, and even if Christ was His Church, a source of infallible political guidance would not exist?

I don’t think that, when the Pope decides matters of spirituality as we do, by siting down, thinking about it, and simply choosing what seems the best answer, still unsure. I suspect that he prays over the issues, studies them, and comes to the correct answer, knowing that Christ would not have let him come to the wrong one. Through the last 2,000 years, the Church has never made a mistake with an infallible proclamation. If it had, do you not think non-Catholics would constantly use it to prove the pontiff is not, in fact, infallible?

Does this address your question?
I am glad you agree that God’s chosen leader should be exceptionally wise; because frankly, if you didn’t I’d think you were making excuses for the failure of the Church.

I will hungrily consume ‘Crossing the Threshold of Hope’. Judging from the way I come across here, you may not believe how badly I want the Pope and the Catholic Church to be God’s Church. I won’t allow though, my emotional desires to dictate my decision. It must come from core of solid, honest belief.
 
If the Pope has contributed to the anti-God, immoral, baby killing, secular socialism that’s is rabidly taking over Western civilization, then yes, I take issue with him. I came here only to find out what the Pope has or has not done to stop the spread of this world wide disease.

If I’m going to be Catholic I must know I’m following good men, and as naive as it may sound, I want the Pope to my hero, a man I can, if necessary, follow to the cross. God’s chosen voice should be no less.
I am quite sure that the Pope has in any way contributed to anything anti-God, immoral, or baby-killing.

I guess my advice would be to read some of Pope Benedict’s writing, and see for yourself what you think he’s done in this regard. (Caritas in Veritate is a great place to start!)

Remember too that the Pope is somewhat removed from the healthcare situation in America. A la subsidiarity, we who live here are most capable of deciding what should be done, because we are the ones this new legislation will affect.
 
I’m actively committed to finding the truth about Catholicism. Consequently I’ve narrowed my field of focus down to a few key questions. As per my title, this question is one those of great concern to me. Hopefully I’ve the right forum. If not, please re-direct me.

Straight up, it’s my opinion that Christ’s Church should be taking care of it’s own, not some worldly (and likely anti-Christian) government agency. I simply can’t see any situation where Christ’s Spokesman would endorse such. If the Pope has done this, then I’d find it unlikely he’s speaking for Christ.

Please feel free to correct anything you believe I have wrong here.
He has identified access to health care as a basic human right. However, he has never specified that the government should be the means through which that human right is delivered.

On the other hand, he has spoken about gratuitousness in dealing with social issues (giving, not because something is due to another, but giving because it’s not due). He has also extensively spoken about subsidiarity.

All of the popes from Leo XIII onward have spoken either directly or by reference about subsidiarity…where social goods should be provided by the most immediate social unit possible. That tends to lead me to think that social goods, such as health care, housing, food, and so on, are not to be provided by the State, but by intermediate groups, when the individual is unable, for a time, to provide for himself.

In fact, the Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church says this:
**188. Various circumstances may make it advisable that the State step in to supply certain functions[401]. One may think, for example, of situations in which it is necessary for the State itself to stimulate the economy because it is impossible for civil society to support initiatives on its own. One may also envision the reality of serious social imbalance or injustice where only the intervention of the public authority can create conditions of greater equality, justice and peace. ** In light of the principle of subsidiarity, however, this institutional substitution must not continue any longer than is absolutely necessary, since justification for such intervention is found only in the exceptional nature of the situation. In any case, the common good correctly understood, the demands of which will never in any way be contrary to the defence and promotion of the primacy of the person and the way this is expressed in society, must remain the criteria for making decisions concerning the application of the principle of subsidiarity.
In my mind, I could see providing assistance for a short period after a disaster (e.g., Hurricane Katrina, a Tsunami, an epidemic, or the like), but not on a long-term basis. Under normal circumstances, it would be provided by intermediate groups, such as charities, community groups, and the like.

But since it hasn’t been definitively determined, we have the ability to use our prudential judgment, informed by the Magesterial teachings of the Church, in determining what we believe to the right course of action on that specific subject.
 
I am glad you agree that God’s chosen leader should be exceptionally wise; because frankly, if you didn’t I’d think you were making excuses for the failure of the Church.

I will hungrily consume ‘Crossing the Threshold of Hope’. Judging from the way I come across here, you may not believe how badly I want the Pope and the Catholic Church to be God’s Church. I won’t allow though, my emotional desires to dictate my decision. It must come from core of solid, honest belief.
Excellent, it is a fantastic book. If you finish it and are looking for other good books, this is a good resource of mostly brilliant, mostly Catholic writers: A Catholic Lifetime Reading Plan.

I certainly share your value for a rigorous, honest belief over emotional reactions. Consider this, however. A great philosopher discussed viewing religion is like viewing stained glass windows: one cannot see a good picture from the outside. I think the same is true of Catholicism specifically. After my religious studies, I decided to convert to Catholicism because my wife was Catholic and I wanted us to share a common faith (and because Catholicism wasn’t terribly crazy or implausible on its face). I certainly wasn’t convinced that Catholicism was true.

After I made up my mind to convert, after I “opened the door” to Christ in His True Church, if you will, everything changed. I did not lose my critical thinking skills, but I also no longer approached it as a skeptical outsider. Another way to say it is that I softened my heart just enough for Christ to come in and change me irrevocably. An entire book could not describe my experience since then or the certainty of my beliefs now.

What I am trying to say, quite poorly it seems, is that accepting Catholicism is an emotional, as well as intellectual, pursuit; I wonder whether one waiting for mathematical type proofs of Catholicism’s authenticity will ever discover the truth. God bless you in your search.
 
I don’t know what Pope Benedict XVI has said about the issue, but I feel it is necessary to address some of your underlying assumptions.
Look guys, I came here seeking God. Not arguments about socialized health.
Well actually, this is exactly what you did. You came with the premise that socialized healthcare is intrinsically evil, and based your question off of that. If we are to answer your question properly, we must make sure that it is the proper question to ask, otherwise you just end up with answers that don’t fit anywhere in your life’s philosophy.
If the Pope has contributed to the anti-God, immoral, baby killing, secular socialism that’s is rabidly taking over Western civilization, then yes, I take issue with him. I came here only to find out what the Pope has or has not done to stop the spread of this world wide disease.
Pope Benedict XVI has been a true champion of life, including opposing abortion. He may or may not have endorsed socialized healthcard, but at the same time, socialized healthcare does not automatically mean access to abortion.
If I’m going to be Catholic I must know I’m following good men, and as naive as it may sound, I want the Pope to my hero, a man I can, if necessary, follow to the cross.
Sorry, this is not a good reason. If you are going to embrace the Catholic Church, you must do it on the basis of her truth, not on the strength of her leader. It is a sad fact of history that there have been some incredibly immoral popes. However, the Church managed to survive even them. There is a quote from a famous Catholic, who I can’t remember at the moment, in a context which escapes me, which says something like, “You wish to destroy the Church from the outside? Good luck, we have not been able to do it from the inside.” We have not been able to destroy the Church because we, and even the pope, are not in charge. God is.
 
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