Has The Religion to Which You Belong CHANGED Throughout its History and What Does This Mean?

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Sunnism is generally considered to be the Orthodox form of Islam and I was a part of it for about 4 years. I left the sunni faith because of sunni people. They generally prescribe the death penalty upon apostates, which is, in my opinion, unscriptural and dangerous. Moreover, they tend to trust scholars over scripture. They quote fatwas all the time, but rarely do they quote the Qur’an.

Looking back, I don’t regret it. Sunnism became corrupt when it started sticking its nose where it doesn’t belong. An apostate should be cared for and prayed for-- not insulted or killed. So yeah, I would say that the Sunni denomination of Islam has changed. It’s changed in terms of how it treats people.
Drac16,
Thank you for bringing your perspective here too.
I think I would summarize your assessment by saying that Sunnism CHANGED but you didn’t and this resulted in your realigning yourself with Sufism.
On a Catholic board in a Christian country I do not think you are going to get anyone to disagree that a move towards “the death penalty upon apostates” is move away from God’s truth.
I do not actually understand the authority structures within Islam (most of my contact has come through studying the Bahai faith), but I will try to ask two questions.
How do you know that the move toward more aggressive penalties for apostasy was a move away from Truth?
If I understand the practice of your faith as a Sufi Moslem is different than if you were not, but are you saying you have moved from Sunni to Shiite, or just emphasize the enlightenment you gain and deemphasize (reject?) aspects of your former Sunni faith. Either way, have you not changed in more ways than merely holding fast to a previous Sunni view of helping/loving the apostate?
Charity, TOm
 
I appreciate your thoughts on this but in the realm of change in religion I’m not so sure we are close together. Closer than Strydersroom’s atheism but not close in beliefs. As a Catholic I believe with all I am my church has not changed in a significant way since Jesus Christ instituted it in 33AD. There was no apostasy, great or otherwise, our faith did not disappear at the death of the last Apostles or at any other time. The Father is God, Jesus is God, and The Holy Spirit is God, the Trinity. Man does not become a god and God was never a man. We believe the bible is the Word of God and is completed and correctly translated. We believe in the sacraments of Baptism, Holy Communion, Confirmation, Marriage, Holy Orders, Reconciliation, and Anointing of the Sick.

What the LDS believe is in direct opposition to what Jesus Christ gave us in 33AD as His church.
Thanks for your response.
When this thread goes the way all thread stupid TOm is involved in, I will try to respond to your post. For now I will just say thanks.
Charity, TOm
 
=TOmNossor;14032440]Well, I think that it is quite possible that churches move from error to truth and that is good. Most of us here believe in the inspiration of the New Testament.
I see a few different changes that happened within the church during New Testament times. A very benign one would be woman wearing hats at church. A silly question to most of us, but not to a Sihk. I much more important one would be associated with the Council of Jerusalem.
It would seem you are staking out a position that to be “the exact opposite” is to be in error before or in error after.
I have a few questions.
  1. It would seem moving from error to non-error is a positive. What are your thoughts on this
?

Why would it not be positive. If something is in error that the correction of that error is positive.
  1. “Exact opposite” is not always as clear. In your example, it would suggest that virtually no Protestant denomination advocates constant use of artificial birth control. I personally read my churches position on this as discouraging indiscriminate use of birth control of ANY sort because the command to “multiply and replenish the earth” is in full effect. But the allowance of some freedom for individuals to prayerfully decide for themselves how they should carry out the commandment and if financial or health concerns warrant some form of birth control. Is that the “exact opposite?” Is that a problem?
The Catholic Church has never changed it’s stance on artificial birth control (ABC). Yes the way your church or any other church that encourages the use of ABC due to the will of self rather than depending on the will of God is a problem.
  1. I think the hats thing is interesting. Another example mentioned on this thread is that the Catholic Priest faces the opposite direction during the consecration. I personally would not suggest such a change is a doctrine (concerning “faith and morals, …), but how do we know that this change is not a problem and the birth control is a problem? I could provide an answer here for sure, but I will let you offer yours
.

Because it was not a change of church teaching. Prior to Vatican II the Mass was said in Latin. The people would either follow along in their missals, follow along if they knew the Mass in Latin, or pray or meditate on the Mystery. In my opinion the change of the Mass from Vatican II was probably a little late in coming. In prior centuries education was not a priority for common people and those who were formally educated most often learned Latin. As education became more accessible for the common man, the Mass, the actual Liturgy, became more accessible. The change of Vatican II wasn’t so much about the priest facing the people but saying the Mass in the language of people, making the people more involved in the Mass. So yes it’s not a problem as a change on ABC would be.
  1. I would suggest that the relative safety and effectiveness of artificial birth control is a technological change that resulted in a change in teaching. Can you think of changes in teaching that have come about because of changes in technology that are NOT problematic? How would we know the difference?
It’s not the safety and effectiveness of ABC that the Church rejects, it the artificial part the Church rejects. Almost all forms of ABC act as an abortifacient, meaning it causes a human being to be destroyed. There are no circumstances that the Church agrees an abortion is OK, NONE! Other forms of birth control such as the use of a condom interrupts the marital act and this is spoken against in the bible.

As far as changes in technology as it relates to fertility. Not only does the Catholic Church reject ABC but also IVF or any other fertility treatment that interrupts the marital act. As an aside I was at the nail salon the other day. There was a woman in there who talked of just having a set of twins. (I wasn’t eavesdropping, she was talking very loudly.) She talked of how difficult it was to get pregnant and how they resorted to IVF. She made the comment “I still have seven embryos frozen but I think we’re done so they’ll just have to be gotten rid of”. My heart broke for those seven babies who never asked to be conceived in a petri dish, never asked to be destroyed, just because two people felt their will was more important than God’s.
 
Well, I think that it is quite possible that churches move from error to truth and that is good. Most of us here believe in the inspiration of the New Testament.
I see a few different changes that happened within the church during New Testament times. A very benign one would be woman wearing hats at church. A silly question to most of us, but not to a Sihk. I much more important one would be associated with the Council of Jerusalem.

It would seem you are staking out a position that to be “the exact opposite” is to be in error before or in error after.

I have a few questions.
  1. It would seem moving from error to non-error is a positive. What are your thoughts on this?
Sure. But if a group was teaching error previously, that is evidence that the group was never infallible. As a believer in apostolic succession, I do not think it has EVER been possible for the true Church to teach error formally.
  1. “Exact opposite” is not always as clear. In your example, it would suggest that virtually no Protestant denomination advocates constant use of artificial birth control. I personally read my churches position on this as discouraging indiscriminate use of birth control of ANY sort because the command to “multiply and replenish the earth” is in full effect. But the allowance of some freedom for individuals to prayerfully decide for themselves how they should carry out the commandment and if financial or health concerns warrant some form of birth control. Is that the “exact opposite?” Is that a problem?
Yes. If contraception is “intrinsically evil” as the Catholic Church declares, then suggesting that today it is okay for people to “prayerfully decide” to use it is wrong.
  1. I think the hats thing is interesting. Another example mentioned on this thread is that the Catholic Priest faces the opposite direction during the consecration. I personally would not suggest such a change is a doctrine (concerning “faith and morals, …), but how do we know that this change is not a problem and the birth control is a problem? I could provide an answer here for sure, but I will let you offer yours.
Dogmas and doctrines cannot be reversed. Disciplines and devotions can. Unless you are going to argue that the direction the priest is facing at mass is one of the former, then I think it is reasonable to allow the Church to change the rubrics of the mass. We seem to be in agreement on this.

Regarding contraception, however, the situation is different. The Church has NEVER in its 2,000 year history wavered from its position that contraception is evil. And this has been reinforced by Humanae Vitae.
  1. I would suggest that the relative safety and effectiveness of artificial birth control is a technological change that resulted in a change in teaching. Can you think of changes in teaching that have come about because of changes in technology that are NOT problematic? How would we know the difference?
Various forms of contraception have been around since before the days of Onan. For example, coitus interuptus is safe, effective and requires NO technology. And Onan was killed for practicing it.

The intrinsically evil nature of contraception is not altered by improvements in technology. The issue is one of the heart; that is to say, it is the intent of the one practicing contraception that is unchanged.
 
Has The Religion to Which You Belong CHANGED Throughout its History and What Does This Mean?<<<
Mine just came into existence in the 20th century. In the beginning Edgar Cayce used his psychic ability to give medical readings. As time went on he became involved with individuals who had a desire to learn the mysteries of the universe and saw EC as a means to that end. He began providing metaphysical readings teaching astrology and reincarnation. After he died, the group was formed to disseminate the readings and it hasn't changed in that respect. They've gotten larger and various writers write articles on various subjects of the readings, but we don't have a leader (like a pope or prophet)clarifying the readings for us so there hasn't been any changes.
 
Has The Religion to Which You Belong CHANGED Throughout its History and What Does This Mean?
I have thought about this thread for a while. I am a LDS (a Mormon).
Have we CHANGED our structure, our doctrine, our size, our location(s)? Yes to all that and more.

What does it mean?

I belong to a religion that burst upon the scene of New England in 1830. Our foundational narrative dislodged us from some to a lot of the Christian world in a way similar to the foundational narrative of first century Christianity dislodging it from some to a lot of the Jewish world. Over this less than 200 years we have been trying to figure out (with our purported divine help, but still figuring) what we as a people believe. We are still figuring and thus we are still CHANGING.
Add to this the fact that we as a people believe that God still reveals truth to the MAN who we recognize as a prophet for the entire church. This creates further changes.

Now, there are things in which I have faith even certitude. Believing as I do concerning change this certitude is not some analytic proposition, just faith. I have faith that the church will not up and decide that Christ is no longer central to our teachings. I have faith like this in other doctrines to. But I reserve complete faith only for God.

So, in conclusion, I belong to a church that CHANGES. This CHANGING is baked into our foundation and our continuation. I expect it to continue, but it is clear to me that such changing is not inconsistent with our doctrine or our view of our church.

Charity, TOm
I think all Christian Churches (blessed with varying degrees of divine guidance I would argue - bright to dim to close to black) change, simply because they are comprised of humans on earth; they change in a bad sense of the word - they are overcome by opposing worldly forces or temptations. But there is also good and Churches can likewise self-correct and change in a good way. It is critical for the individual Christian person to understand this about Christianity. The most difficult challenge is discerning the true from the false, the good from the bad. I am not sure anyone ever does this 100% successfully, but you can get quite good at it, through humility, common sense, knowledge of the history of the Church, knowledge of Scripture, good guidance from other Christians that are trustworthy and follow Jesus in word and deed. Informed simplicity. 😉 Most of the time if you smell a rat, you’re probably right, as long as you have objectively, prayerfully determined that you are not in prejudice or error - and most importantly have Scripture and long-established Church teaching, interpretation of Scripture and practice on your side. I would call this the constant of God 's revelation. But the journey can get a little wild West sometimes, no question.
 
Drac16,
Thank you for bringing your perspective here too.
I think I would summarize your assessment by saying that Sunnism CHANGED but you didn’t and this resulted in your realigning yourself with Sufism.
On a Catholic board in a Christian country I do not think you are going to get anyone to disagree that a move towards “the death penalty upon apostates” is move away from God’s truth.
I do not actually understand the authority structures within Islam (most of my contact has come through studying the Bahai faith), but I will try to ask two questions.
How do you know that the move toward more aggressive penalties for apostasy was a move away from Truth?
If I understand the practice of your faith as a Sufi Moslem is different than if you were not, but are you saying you have moved from Sunni to Shiite, or just emphasize the enlightenment you gain and deemphasize (reject?) aspects of your former Sunni faith. Either way, have you not changed in more ways than merely holding fast to a previous Sunni view of helping/loving the apostate?

Charity, TOm
**1) **I know it because, all throughout the Qur’an, the prophet Muhammad is said to have been just a warner (as opposed to someone who compels someone to believe). That’s very important to understand. In surah 5:19, 7:184, 7:188, 11:2 and others, Muhammad is said to have only been a warner (i.e. someone who warns about the upcoming Judgment Day, Hellfire and such). Moreover, the Qur’an says, in surah 2:256 that there is no compulsion in religion. That can only mean that one is not forced to follow Islam-- it is strictly based on choice.

What sunnis will sometimes do is that they’ll quote a lone hadith where it is said that Muhammad said “Whoever changes their religion, kill them”. There had to have been a context in which that was appropriate-- not in every single case. If Muhammad did teach that the death penalty is the proper and appropriate act to take against an apostate in every case of apostasy, then Muhammad contradicted the Qur’an.

2) I started out strictly as a sunni because all of the people I looked up to were sunnis. After reading some of Rumi’s poetry, I became a sufi because I began to see spirituality in a different way. For a period of time, I considered myself as a hybrid of sunni and sufi, but that changed once I left Sunnism. What Rumi did was he opened my eyes; I was able to see the fact that spirituality is more than a set of laws. It’s about experiencing the love of God, so much so that you’ll want to renounce worldly pleasures that get in the way of your relationship with God (even if worldly pleasures are not altogether sinful). I’ll give you an example: I asked Allah if it was OK to play M rated video games. He sent me strong conviction that I should stay away from them. Though it is debatable that every M rated game is sinful, I choose to stay away from all of them.

I engage in practices that are not necessarily endorsed by Sunnism, such as meditation [also known as muraqaba] and loud dhikr (which is basically chanting out loud sacred phrases like “Subhanallah, Alhamdulillah, Allahu akbar”, etc). In my experience, sunnis are hesitant to try meditation and loud dhikr, respectively. Sufis do them all the time, though. 🙂
 
There were people outside of the Roman communion before post-1517 Protestantism, some of which were outright heretics in the early Church and in the centuries after Nicaea (e.g., Gnostics, Donatists, Novatianists, Sabellians/Modalists, Arians, etc) and then there were movements in the Middle Ages that some scholars have defined as “proto-Protestant” in nature (e.g., Hussites, Waldensians, Lollards), then you have heretical revival movements (e.g., Cathars, Albigenses) which all must be distinguished.

I would say that Protestantism has changed not only in its theology (being very diverse, but rarely leaving the realm of the Five Solas), but in its culture, politics, and demographics. We simply emphasize that all Christians, regardless of their denomination or church, are part of the Church, the Body of Christ, no adjectives.

The Body of Christ does not change because we cannot be separated from the love of Christ (Rom. 8:38-39). Christianity’s overall Communion does not change: its people do, its denominations do, its culture does.
 
TOmNossor;14032440 said:

  1. It would seem moving from error to non-error is a positive. What are your thoughts on this?
Sure. But if a group was teaching error previously, that is evidence that the group was never infallible. As a believer in apostolic succession, I do not think it has EVER been possible for the true Church to teach error formally.

That is quite a clear way of explaining your position.
“Infallible!” – The church is preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals.
A teaching of the church concerning faith and morals cannot change because the church is infallible AND if it changes it was either wrong before or after. Such cannot be.

This little section sent me thinking for quite a while. I do not subscribe to the idea that everyone has a truth or that there is no truth. I think there is absolute truth. I belong to a church that does not believe they teach infallibly. Possessing infallibility is quite a selling point as I weigh things. It of course creates the burden of irreformability as you mention above which can be quite a difficulty. I am sure you know that there is much wrangling about the SCOPE of ecclesiastical infallibility and the CONTENT of ecclesiastical infallibility within the Catholic Church. And with her critics (who sometimes claim to be Catholic) there is wrangling about the truth of ecclesiastical infallibility often as it relates to CHANGE (through history and for the future too).

Concerning scope and our not too contentious topic of birth control, I found only the statement from the Council of Nicea where castration was penalized. If a sinfulness of artificial birth control (including “coitus interruptus” as artificial it would seem), is infallibly true, it would seem that such is the case because it is universally taught throughout Catholic history not because it is explicitly defined in an infallible council (or from something universally accepted as an exercise of Papal Infallibility). This of course puts it in good company as the all-male priesthood is not a product of an EC or accepted exercise of Papal Infallibiilty.

I guess the two things that mitigate (severely) the lure (as I mentioned above) to Catholicism for me personally as a product of her understanding of ecclesiastical infallibility is that I would still have a lot (though less) uncertainty concerning semi-important issues AND I see such infallibility as hard to defend. As a Catholic convert who so explicitly links infallibility with irreformability and unchanging-ness, I am guessing that you have found those two things of little concern. I will again say, that there is a certain lure to the concept of absence of error!
Charity, TOm
 
Personally,** I believe that all forms not just of birth control but of anything that intentionally prevents conception are sinful.** For me, that includes Natural Family Planning (NFP). In fact, Saint Augustine criticized his own former religious group, the Manichaeans, for using a “calendar-based method” in order to prevent conceiving a child. It did not have his approval.

Now, while many Protestants say that birth control is “okay,” I would not accept that. It is merely Onanism with a different method.

This is a Sedevancantist Catholic source on why NFP is merely the next form of birth control.
 
I’m thinking about the definition of terms; for example: what is birth control? What is CHANGE? What is doctrine? Dogma?

Some other thoughts:

Does a religion accept individuals holding beliefs contrary to the teaching authority of the particular religion? I mean if a religion teaches that birth control is wrong, would they tolerant the use of birth control as an acceptable variation or even the belief that birth control is OK without the practice of it?

And if they accepted variations in a belief (heresy), could we even say the religion held that belief?

Or what can we say about a religion that claims to have the ‘true’ beliefs but accommodates any belief as ‘true?’

Is a change in practice a change in faith or morals?
 
I think all Christian Churches (blessed with varying degrees of divine guidance I would argue - bright to dim to close to black) change, simply because they are comprised of humans on earth; they change in a bad sense of the word - they are overcome by opposing worldly forces or temptations. But there is also good and Churches can likewise self-correct and change in a good way. It is critical for the individual Christian person to understand this about Christianity. The most difficult challenge is discerning the true from the false, the good from the bad. I am not sure anyone ever does this 100% successfully, but you can get quite good at it, through humility, common sense, knowledge of the history of the Church, knowledge of Scripture, good guidance from other Christians that are trustworthy and follow Jesus in word and deed. Informed simplicity. 😉 Most of the time if you smell a rat, you’re probably right, as long as you have objectively, prayerfully determined that you are not in prejudice or error - and most importantly have Scripture and long-established Church teaching, interpretation of Scripture and practice on your side. I would call this the constant of God 's revelation. But the journey can get a little wild West sometimes, no question.
I really enjoyed reading this. It reminded me of a quote made famous by Martin Luther King,
”arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice.”
I also agree that the discerning is the hard part. Perhaps this is one of the reasons that I see greater strength in communions with leadership structures that aid in discerning.
Charity, TOm
 
**1) **I know it because, all throughout the Qur’an, the prophet Muhammad is said to have been just a warner (as opposed to someone who compels someone to believe). That’s very important to understand. In surah 5:19, 7:184, 7:188, 11:2 and others, Muhammad is said to have only been a warner (i.e. someone who warns about the upcoming Judgment Day, Hellfire and such). Moreover, the Qur’an says, in surah 2:256 that there is no compulsion in religion. That can only mean that one is not forced to follow Islam-- it is strictly based on choice.

What sunnis will sometimes do is that they’ll quote a lone hadith where it is said that Muhammad said “Whoever changes their religion, kill them”. There had to have been a context in which that was appropriate-- not in every single case. If Muhammad did teach that the death penalty is the proper and appropriate act to take against an apostate in every case of apostasy, then Muhammad contradicted the Qur’an.

2) I started out strictly as a sunni because all of the people I looked up to were sunnis. After reading some of Rumi’s poetry, I became a sufi because I began to see spirituality in a different way. For a period of time, I considered myself as a hybrid of sunni and sufi, but that changed once I left Sunnism. What Rumi did was he opened my eyes; I was able to see the fact that spirituality is more than a set of laws. It’s about experiencing the love of God, so much so that you’ll want to renounce worldly pleasures that get in the way of your relationship with God (even if worldly pleasures are not altogether sinful). I’ll give you an example: I asked Allah if it was OK to play M rated video games. He sent me strong conviction that I should stay away from them. Though it is debatable that every M rated game is sinful, I choose to stay away from all of them.

I engage in practices that are not necessarily endorsed by Sunnism, such as meditation [also known as muraqaba] and loud dhikr (which is basically chanting out loud sacred phrases like “Subhanallah, Alhamdulillah, Allahu akbar”, etc). In my experience, sunnis are hesitant to try meditation and loud dhikr, respectively. Sufis do them all the time, though. 🙂
Drac16,
Thank you again for your response. I certainly lack the knowledge necessary to determine which version of Islam is most faithful to God and the Prophet Mohammad. I will just offer a few words that I think have little to do with this thread, but I feel compelled to offer.

First, I studied Sufi practices a small bit when I was enamored with the spiritual practices of:
  1. Dessert Mystics (3rd century and later Christians).
  2. Eastern Orthodox Hesychast
  3. St. John of the Cross (Catholic)
  4. Sufi Muslims
    I see many similarities in the God discovered through all these people/groups. I believe the similarities come because one God is the source of these similarities.
Second, as a Christian, I chose to applaud and encourage the Muslim beliefs you espouse. Our human family needs a proper mix of love, devotion, and tolerance. I think you have found it!
Charity, TOm
 
There were people outside of the Roman communion before post-1517 Protestantism, some of which were outright heretics in the early Church and in the centuries after Nicaea (e.g., Gnostics, Donatists, Novatianists, Sabellians/Modalists, Arians, etc) and then there were movements in the Middle Ages that some scholars have defined as “proto-Protestant” in nature (e.g., Hussites, Waldensians, Lollards), then you have heretical revival movements (e.g., Cathars, Albigenses) which all must be distinguished.

I would say that Protestantism has changed not only in its theology (being very diverse, but rarely leaving the realm of the Five Solas), but in its culture, politics, and demographics. We simply emphasize that all Christians, regardless of their denomination or church, are part of the Church, the Body of Christ, no adjectives.

The Body of Christ does not change because we cannot be separated from the love of Christ (Rom. 8:38-39). Christianity’s overall Communion does not change: its people do, its denominations do, its culture does.
Thank you for your response. There are some “Solas” of which I am not a fan (and others that I quite like).
To the extent I understand it, I recognize the following.
I know committed and faithful Protestants/Evangelicals who love and know God. I am sympathetic to the view that this connection with God is so wonderful that it is clearly part of the unity in the essentials and thus they are not particularly concerned with the freedom in all else or where to draw the line.
Charity, TOm
 
It depends on who’s truth you’re talking about.

That’s what I like about science, it’s true no matter what you believe.
So, in 1850 when science “proved” those of Black stock were inferior to whites, that never changed? That was accepted as fact at the time. As my college biology professor stated, (and he was not sympathetic to religion) science can never “prove” anything, it can just be used as an explanation for why things are. (And my mother, who is not particularly religious, but is a theist, has a background in biology and medicine)
 
I’m thinking about the definition of terms; for example: what is birth control? What is CHANGE? What is doctrine? Dogma?
Hello Stephen!
I think these are good questions. I will offer a few thoughts, but do not suggest I have answers.
“Birth Control” is anything done to prevent the conception of children.
“Artificial Birth Control” is the utilization of non-natural (ie chemical or foreign to the body barrier methods) to prevent the conception of children.
Paul VI IMO addressed much of these questions in a very thorough way creating a reason to allow Rhythm and even LAM, but to disallow ABC or Coitus Interruptus. That being said, there is a lot more to the question than is typically discussed.
“CHANGE” is to become different. It is now common to discuss Development vs. Change. And Change associated with discipline not faith/morals. But, again this question becomes increasingly complex too.
“Doctrine” has MANY meaning. The broadest and simplest meaning is “teaching,” or that which is taught. We add to the word “Doctrine” things like “binding doctrine,” “irreformable doctrine,” and ….
“Dogma” I would have in the past and still do somewhat say, “that which must be believed.” I think it is more accurate to say, “that which is absolutely and clearly true.” What Catholics embrace as Dogma is quite difficult to define IMO. Are ECs all Dogma. Only the portion of ECs that concern faith/morals as opposed to discipline. And a question I have asked here and do not know the answer to, are ECs infallible in WORDS inscribed in the documents or in the “original intent” of those words by the Fathers of the councils?
Most of the above speaks of these questions from a Catholic perspective as these questions have much less importance within the CoJCoLDS.
Does a religion accept individuals holding beliefs contrary to the teaching authority of the particular religion? I mean if a religion teaches that birth control is wrong, would they tolerant the use of birth control as an acceptable variation or even the belief that birth control is OK without the practice of it?

And if they accepted variations in a belief (heresy), could we even say the religion held that belief?

Or what can we say about a religion that claims to have the ‘true’ beliefs but accommodates any belief as ‘true?’

Is a change in practice a change in faith or morals?
These are also good and tough questions and ones that I can see my church struggling with regularly (certainly to a much greater extent than the above questions).
There is a recognition that LDS are not compelled to believe a great number of things that LDS generally believe. There is an allowance for beliefs that are outside that which is taught. There is also a drive to conformity that in some manifestations I have felt was in error and in other manifestations I have felt was necessary.
I suppose even as a LDS we have some concept of “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.” We just struggle to know which are the essentials and occasionally in very human ways miss the mark of CHARITY.
Anyway, I thought I would offer some thoughts, but I do not have great ANSWERS.
Charity, TOm
 
That is quite a clear way of explaining your position.
“Infallible!” – The church is preserved from liability to error in her definitive dogmatic teaching regarding matters of faith and morals.
A teaching of the church concerning faith and morals cannot change because the church is infallible AND if it changes it was either wrong before or after. Such cannot be.

This little section sent me thinking for quite a while. I do not subscribe to the idea that everyone has a truth or that there is no truth. I think there is absolute truth. I belong to a church that does not believe they teach infallibly. Possessing infallibility is quite a selling point as I weigh things. It of course creates the burden of irreformability as you mention above which can be quite a difficulty. I am sure you know that there is much wrangling about the SCOPE of ecclesiastical infallibility and the CONTENT of ecclesiastical infallibility within the Catholic Church. And with her critics (who sometimes claim to be Catholic) there is wrangling about the truth of ecclesiastical infallibility often as it relates to CHANGE (through history and for the future too).

Concerning scope and our not too contentious topic of birth control, I found only the statement from the Council of Nicea where castration was penalized. If a sinfulness of artificial birth control (including “coitus interruptus” as artificial it would seem), is infallibly true, it would seem that such is the case because it is universally taught throughout Catholic history not because it is explicitly defined in an infallible council (or from something universally accepted as an exercise of Papal Infallibility). This of course puts it in good company as the all-male priesthood is not a product of an EC or accepted exercise of Papal Infallibiilty.

I guess the two things that mitigate (severely) the lure (as I mentioned above) to Catholicism for me personally as a product of her understanding of ecclesiastical infallibility is that I would still have a lot (though less) uncertainty concerning semi-important issues AND I see such infallibility as hard to defend. As a Catholic convert who so explicitly links infallibility with irreformability and unchanging-ness, I am guessing that you have found those two things of little concern. I will again say, that there is a certain lure to the concept of absence of error!
Charity, TOm
As men received clearer understanding of the teaching authority of the church and the primacy of the Pope, they also got a clearer understanding of the Pope’s infallibility. Here are a few passages from the Early Church Fathers on the subject of infallibility:

Pope Clement I

“Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us… Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret… If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [God] through us [that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger… You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy…” (Letter to the Corinthians 1:1, 58:2-59:1,63:2[A.D.80]).

Clement declares that God is speaking through him.

Irenaeus of Lyons

“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [189 AD]).

Why must other churches agree with the Church of Rome if that Church is teaching error?

**Cyprian of Carthage **

"the Lord says to Peter; ’I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of Heaven; and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven’ [Matt 16:18-19])…On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was *, but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

“Would heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?" (Epistulae 59 (55), 14, [256 AD]).

Clear enough, isn’t it? 👍*
 
I guess the two things that mitigate (severely) the lure (as I mentioned above) to Catholicism for me personally as a product of her understanding of ecclesiastical infallibility is that I would still have a lot (though less) uncertainty concerning semi-important issues AND I see such infallibility as hard to defend.
Catholics, on the other hand, see such a defense as relatively easy and obvious. For example, here is one straightforward explanation:

Infallibility Explained by Reasoning from the Scriptures
Excerpted from an article by Jeffrey Mirus, PhD
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papac2.htm

It is clear even from Scripture that Peter had a special commission and special powers from Christ to care for the flock of Christ, to bind and loose, and to confirm his brothers in faith – indeed he had the very powers of the keys to the Kingdom. Obviously, these powers were essential to the Church as constituted by Christ. And Christ promised to be with the Church always to the end of time, and said that the powers of hell would not prevail against it.

Now, clearly Christ knew that Peter would not live until the end of time, so he must have intended that the power he gave to Peter would be carried on until His return. After all, Peter was to feed “my” (Christ’s) sheep, and so was serving as the vicar of Christ in Christ’s absence. When Peter died, a new vicar would take his place, and so on, until Christ returned to claim his own. The parable of the steward awaiting his Master’s return is very much to the point.

Just as clearly, Peter’s authority also enabled himself (and his successors) to set forth the manner in which their successors would be selected, either by choosing the successor personally before death, or by setting forth some other means – eventually, election by the college of cardinals.

Moreover, if these special and essential powers were to pass out of existence, it would be proof that Christ was no longer with his Church and that the powers of Hell had indeed prevailed. Therefore, again, Christ must have intended successors to Peter.

For this reason, we are not at all surprised that subsequent popes claimed to have the Petrine power and that the early Christian community accepted it without question. This authority was exercised by the fourth Pope, Clement, while St. John the Evangelist was still alive. The earliest Christians were in a position to know Christ’s will from other sources than Scripture (just as we today, under the guidance of the Church, are able to learn from Tradition).

Now we come to the specific question of infallibility, by which the successors of Peter continue to confirm the brethren. Since the successors of Peter have the same Petrine authority, which comes ultimately from Christ, to bind and loose, they have the authority to bind the faithful in matters pertaining to salvation – that is, in faith or morals. Now, if a Pope could bind the faithful to error, it would be a clear triumph of the powers of Hell, because the entire Church would be bound to follow the error under Christ’s own authority. Obviously, this cannot happen.

**Therefore, the logic of the situation demands that the Petrine power of confirming the brethren must be an infallible power. When the Pope intends by virtue of his supreme authority to teach on a matter of faith and morals to the entire Church, he MUST be protected by the Holy Spirit from error – else the powers of hell would prevail.

This is the logic behind infallibility. But, of course, it is not based solely on logic, since it is attested in Scripture and was held by the earliest Christians and the Fathers and, indeed, by the vast majority of Christians from the beginning.**

Further, it is not a new thing. It was precisely defined at Vatican I in order to clarify what was at that time a confusing issue, but this was by way of stating clearly what Christ’s teaching was, not by way of adding anything new. Vatican I therefore carefully enumerated the conditions under which the Pope was in fact infallible – the same conditions which logic demands, which Scripture suggests, and which tradition shows us in action down through the centuries.

When the Pope (1) intends to teach (2) by virtue of his supreme authority (3) on a matter of faith and morals (4) to the whole Church, he is preserved by the Holy Spirit from error. His teaching act is therefore called “infallible” and the teaching which he articulates is termed “irreformable”.
 
TOmNossor said:
“Birth Control” is anything done to prevent the conception of children.
“Artificial Birth Control” is the utilization of non-natural (ie chemical or foreign to the body barrier methods) to prevent the conception of children.
Paul VI IMO addressed much of these questions in a very thorough way creating a reason to allow Rhythm and even LAM, but to disallow ABC or Coitus Interruptus. That being said, there is a lot more to the question than is typically discussed.
Birth Control is more than anything done to prevent the conception of children. Church approved methods of Natural Family Planning (NFP) can also be used to know when a woman is most fertile and make attempts to conceive. That is why the name NFP is much more common when the topic is discussed within Catholic circles. With the use of NFP the parents are willing to allow God to be in control when they conceive or not. Even if a family is trying to space their children for some reason, they accept a child as a gift from God regardless. It is a mindset of faithful Catholics. It is trusting God in the most beautiful way.

The Catholic Church is against the use of any type of ABC when used to prevent the conception of a child. There are times when a woman must undergo a medical procedure to treat a medical problem that results in the loss of her fertility such as the need for a hysterectomy. She’s not getting it to prevent conception but as a necessary medical treatment.

In speaking of Paul VI he didn’t create reasons for new methods of family planning. He clarified the Catholic Church’s position on ABC. While many Christian churches were allowing the use of ABC Paul VI said the Catholic Church has not changed her position. Medical advancements have made the use of NFP easier and more effective but it is still the natural part of NFP.

As far as LAM it is a natural occurring infertility and sometimes is or sometimes isn’t. Even so it is not an artificial means of birth control.
Lactational amenorrhea is **the temporary postnatal infertility **that occurs when a woman is amenorrheic (not menstruating) and fully breastfeeding. .
The Church has never nor ever will, support abortion. It is intrinsically evil.

For you to understand the positions of Catholic Church on these issues you need to understand the position on the sacrament of marriage. When a man & woman enter into the covenant of marriage they are making an unbreakable bond before God and with God. This covenant includes many things but for the purpose of this discussion I stick to the issue of children. They stand before a priest and other witnesses to vow to be open to life, to be open to God’s plan for them regarding children. They publically state to all in attendance that they trust God’s plan for them more than what they have planned for themselves. If God’s plan is for them to have 12 children, then as long as they continue to cooperate with God’s will, 12 children they will have. If God gives them 2 children, well then 2 it is. If God’s will is for them to not conceive, then they trust in God’s will. Maybe God plans for them to open their hearts to adoption.

When a man & a woman decide to enter the covenant of marriage they agree to a sexual faithfulness that goes beyond marital faithfulness. They agree to use their bodies for what God created them to be. God created these amazing human bodies of a man and a women to fit together as one and to have nothing come between them. I don’t think I need to get into the biology of male & female and sexual parts but God made them to be one during the marital act and any different use is us getting in the way of God’s intentions.

This wasn’t created by a council or by a Pope, it’s in the bible. It’s been there from the beginning and is still the way it is.

This is where so many non-Catholic or non-Christians get hung up. It’s about faith. It’s about giving over our will to God. To submit to His authority, not our own, not some man’s, not some man made church, God’s authority and His will for our lives.

Hopefully this offers you more clarity on the issue of family planning in the Catholic Church.
 
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