Has there ever been a just war?

[tabycat]

Do some reasearch on the trail of money and who was doing business with Sadam and who supported the war and who did not. It’s interesting. My memory is poor so I forget the details but I read a paper on a topic like this that more or less shocked me.

Does that mean that someone makes money on a war,that war is unjust? Colt made money on arms during the Civil War, does that mean that the war to free the slaves was unjust?

 

[tabycat]

I doubt any country is going to come and try to attack the usa anytime soon so think it’s perfectly reasonable to significantly scale back all military actions that are offensive (such as bases in other countries and traveling to other countires to wage war- do people realize that the usa put Sadam in power years and years back to fight…afganistan? or some country. Then 15 years later they attack him and his country. And many died and many in this country profited financially a great deal. That is a crying shame.

We were attacted Sept. 11, 2001, unless others say it was our fault because we are the ‘big Satan’. Maybe the USA (us) does not have the right to defend itself. As for Hussan, there are some people that say that Hitler was a good person and we should not have gone after him.

 

[tabycat]

Do some reasearch on the trail of money and who was doing business with Sadam and who supported the war and who did not. It’s interesting. My memory is poor so I forget the details but I read a paper on a topic like this that more or less shocked me.

The only one that did not make money on the war in Iraq has been Hussin & Co.

 

[Bill_7154]

Bush family involvement going back to WWI:

populistreview.wordpress.com/

corporatepolicy.org/topics/index.htm

normantranscript.com/opinion/x897046725/Not-economic-suicide-for-all/print

docs.google.com/a/baycove.org/viewer?a=v&q=cache:kKpUxgsw2DgJ:judiciary.house.gov/hearings/printers/110th/36173.PDF+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShwAmdB7drzfN1PwNtnBv7t0I1sUsHpDsqzVr8naB9yTPzPea6dtocyIRUM5_Fxem8rA7It-7Hecp1RgP7FenEVpLIVRXc2QcPziVETYvjnrWM0b2Zr4iTSAT2lvo0P-BVuMh_P&sig=AHIEtbRK74FP98aU1uAIcqswp9VjQ1K_CA

endthelie.com/2011/10/28/war-profiteering-a-cancer-upon-america/#axzz28v4qvR3j

docs.google.com/a/baycove.org/viewer?a=v&q=cache:1YGNtKiar-QJ:repository01.lib.tufts.edu:8080/fedora/get/tufts:UA015.012.075.00008/bdef:TuftsPDF/getPDF+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh9n11MOBgDgJM5jmPVZYIBST8wJDX1zFDdJnpjyZHxegd7m5FTYbP8j8Fnb_tA5cBZeImVPMwYSa5IS6NPBt2Sz57p7NIaERVHIAf7HuxVbpeBkEtZ9JJux4A4pNJ0n6E3Il2N&sig=AHIEtbQ5MCSKozg0OEsYdfsNpritNIDzYw

thirdworldtraveler.com/Iraq/War_Profiteers_Iraq.html

I could keep going and going and going…

Still think it’s made up and the good 'ol usa is protecting our freedom when they wage war as the primary and sole purpose? They are doing good and right by the taxpayers, looking out for our best interests?

No, they would never consider manipulating the system, even war, for their own financial gain. No way. Never!

 

[catholictiger]

Bush family involvement going back to WWI:

populistreview.wordpress.com/

corporatepolicy.org/topics/index.htm

normantranscript.com/opinion/x897046725/Not-economic-suicide-for-all/print

docs.google.com/a/baycove.org/viewer?a=v&q=cache:kKpUxgsw2DgJ:judiciary.house.gov/hearings/printers/110th/36173.PDF+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShwAmdB7drzfN1PwNtnBv7t0I1sUsHpDsqzVr8naB9yTPzPea6dtocyIRUM5_Fxem8rA7It-7Hecp1RgP7FenEVpLIVRXc2QcPziVETYvjnrWM0b2Zr4iTSAT2lvo0P-BVuMh_P&sig=AHIEtbRK74FP98aU1uAIcqswp9VjQ1K_CA

endthelie.com/2011/10/28/war-profiteering-a-cancer-upon-america/#axzz28v4qvR3j

docs.google.com/a/baycove.org/viewer?a=v&q=cache:1YGNtKiar-QJ:repository01.lib.tufts.edu:8080/fedora/get/tufts:UA015.012.075.00008/bdef:TuftsPDF/getPDF+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh9n11MOBgDgJM5jmPVZYIBST8wJDX1zFDdJnpjyZHxegd7m5FTYbP8j8Fnb_tA5cBZeImVPMwYSa5IS6NPBt2Sz57p7NIaERVHIAf7HuxVbpeBkEtZ9JJux4A4pNJ0n6E3Il2N&sig=AHIEtbQ5MCSKozg0OEsYdfsNpritNIDzYw

thirdworldtraveler.com/Iraq/War_Profiteers_Iraq.html

I could keep going and going and going…

Still think it’s made up and the good 'ol usa is protecting our freedom when they wage war as the primary and sole purpose? They are doing good and right by the taxpayers, looking out for our best interests?

No, they would never consider manipulating the system, even war, for their own financial gain. No way. Never!

any of those links a credible source? I’m serious they all look like conspiriacy web sites which I don’t really trust.

 

[Bill_7154]

Does that mean that someone makes money on a war,that war is unjust? Colt made money on arms during the Civil War, does that mean that the war to free the slaves was unjust?

I am not claiming that.

 

[Bill_7154]

Bill 7154;9877272:

We were attacted Sept. 11, 2001, unless others say it was our fault because we are the ‘big Satan’. Maybe the USA (us) does not have the right to defend itself. As for Hussan, there are some people that say that Hitler was a good person and we should not have gone after him.

An unpreventable attack. And maybe if we were more focused on national DEFENSE we would have been better prepared. Maybe some guys in the think tanks would have conceived of the possibility of an attack of this nature and possibly done something to make the overall impact less devistating. We would certainly have more resources for national defense if we spent less on national offense.

 

[Bill_7154]

Nice and convenient way to outright dismiss them all. A couple list over a hundred senators that profited from the Iraq war. Another talks about how Prescott Bush profited in dealing with the Nazi’s, as is father did in WWI. Why don’t you spend some time investigating before you dismiss something.

Or better yet, come up with links that refute what is claimed in the links I posted (good luck with that)! lol

 

[tafan]

Well, this is kind of late. From a purely US point of view and only looking at the just cause (not the way in which wars were executed (which is probably never a cut and dried answer):

American Revolution: unjust
War of 1812: just **
Mexican War: unjust **
Civil War: Union side: just, Conferderacy:unjust
Spanish American war: unjust
Phillipine War: unjust
WWI: unjust
WWII: just
Korea: just
Vietnam: just
First gulf war: just
Second gulf war: unjust **
Afghan war: just

** - I certainly could be wrong on these (well, I could be wrong on all of them, but less sure on these)

edited to add:
I couple I left off my list
War against Barbary Coast : just **
Indian wars: unjust **

 

[sedonaman]

…
An unpreventable attack. And maybe if we were more focused on national DEFENSE we would have been better prepared. Maybe some guys in the think tanks would have conceived of the possibility of an attack of this nature and possibly done something to make the overall impact less devistating. We would certainly have more resources for national defense if we spent less on national offense.

Can you explain the difference between national defense and national offense?

 

[GEddie]

tabycat;9877760:

An unpreventable attack. And maybe if we were more focused on national DEFENSE we would have been better prepared. Maybe some guys in the think tanks would have conceived of the possibility of an attack of this nature and possibly done something to make the overall impact less devistating. We would certainly have more resources for national defense if we spent less on national offense.

There is no mitigating an attack such as 9/11.

Buildings cannot be hardened enough to withstand such catastrophic impacts. And by their very nature, long-distance aircraft carry a lot of energy. Energy equals destructive potential.

9/11 could have been prevented if flight security at the time had made sense, or if there had been more scrutiny of foreigners in flight school. But there was no way of “reducing its impact”. And the measures that would have prevented it were unacceptable at the time.

The defender is always stuck preparing for the last conflict.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Bill_7154]

What is so hard about accepting the fact that people in positions to do so seek to make money off of wars. People have been doing that for centuries and that has been what has been the motive for wars for centuries (raping, pillaging, plundering, stealing lands, making slaves of the ihabitants of the lands overtaken).

Why on earth would you think anything has changed? We are still not a civilized people. That is quite obvious if you watch the daily news. The motives for wars are the same as they always have been… or am I supposed to believe that a couple of countries have turned noble and good in the past 100 years…when a couple hundred before that they pillaged and plundered this country and slaughtered all it’s inhabitants and stole their lands.

Come on. Be real. Wake up and give me a break already. It’s been going on forever. There is no reason to think it has stopped. The tactics might have changed a bit, become more sophistocated and devious, but the motives are the same as far as I am concerned.

And there is a heck of a lot of evidence to support the notion that war profiterring continues to go on whenever there is a war. There are even some poeple who make money selling supplies to both sides. The more wars the more money thay make.

The sick part is that taxpayers pay for it and buy into the notion that wars are for noble purposes (maybe a few were, I’m no history expert, but by en large I don’t buy it for a second).

God Bless,
Bill

 

[sedonaman]

Well, this is kind of late. From a purely US point of view and only looking at the just cause (not the way in which wars were executed …

American Revolution: unjust
…

Why?

 

[JIB]

Well, this is kind of late. From a purely US point of view and only looking at the just cause (not the way in which wars were executed (which is probably never a cut and dried answer):

American Revolution: unjust
War of 1812: just **
Mexican War: unjust **
Civil War: Union side: just, Conferderacy:unjust
Spanish American war: unjust
Phillipine War: unjust
WWI: unjust
WWII: just
Korea: just
Vietnam: just
First gulf war: just
Second gulf war: unjust **
Afghan war: just

**

How in the world were Korea and Vietnam just?

 

[tafan]

Why?

I would argue it from a couple of stand points. First of all, it was a war against taxes. Now, this could still be justified, certainly the English were trying to impose onerous taxes and trade restrictions on the American colonies. However, the imposition of these taxes were largely an over reaction to the fact that colonial trade was completely untaxed and/or the colonists were ignoring all of the taxes. More importantly, it is not clear at all that all other means of resolving the disputes had been exhausted. There were certainly political parties in England who wanted to resolve the problems in a more fair fashion, but the colonists largely wanted to just pay no taxes (although they certainly had a large advantage tax wise over English based merchants). OTOH, theEnglish were certainly stupid in the entire affair and conducting policies that were completely against their own self-interest.

 

[Bill_7154]

Can you explain the difference between national defense and national offense?

Switzerland practices national defense. The usa has bases all around the globe and gets in wars all over the place even if not directly attacked. National defense, it seems to me, is to prepare and be prepared in the event of an attack…not to stick military bases all around the globe. So if we practiced national defense we would mind our own business while preparing and being prepared should we be attacked. I think the us military does just a tad more than that with it’s budget and it’s practices. Does that make any sense?

Or we could use a sports analogy. You can be on the offensive or on the defensive. But if there is no game happening one can focus on practicing defense to improve the teams defense to have the defense ready if and when they ever have a game.

Do you not really understand the difference between defense and offense? And are you not capable of extrapolating that understanding to the military? That seems odd to me.

 

[Bill_7154]

I would argue it from a couple of stand points. First of all, it was a war against taxes. Now, this could still be justified, certainly the English were trying to impose onerous taxes and trade restrictions on the American colonies. However, the imposition of these taxes were largely an over reaction to the fact that colonial trade was completely untaxed .

And we have made so much forward progress on that front since that time. It makes me all warm and fuzzy inside to think about it.

 

[tafan]

How in the world were Korea and Vietnam just?

Those are completely no-brainers.

In both cases, there was a communist invasion and we were coming to the defense of nations being invaded.

to go down the list of requirements in the catechism (paragrph 2309)

1. Looking at the history of the evil that followed in every country which suffered a communist takeover, it was certain the damage to South Vietnam and South Korea would be lasting,grave, and certain.
2. There was no hope of non-violent resolution of the conflicts
3. There was certainly a prospect for success in both cases (eventually realized in Korea, not in Vietnam)
4. The evils of communism certainly made a war a proportional response.

The only argument against these wars being just falls along the lines “it was not our war”. That, in and of itself, has never been held to be a Catholic position against a just war. It has always been recognized that one nation can legitimately come to the defense of another when the 4 basic restrictions are met.

 

[tafan]

And we have made so much forward progress on that front since that time. It makes me all warm and fuzzy inside to think about it.

ha, yes we fought for our independence over taxes, and have since proceeded to tax ourselves much more onerously than the English ever attempted. If that was your point, it is a good one.

 

[tabycat]

We PUT Sadam in power back in the day. To help him fight afganistan or some country. Then like 20 or 30 years later or whatever we come to take him out. He got in power because of the US Gov’t funded him and supplied him with weapons years and years ago. I’m not too good with history so I forget which country it was against but it’s common knowledge. It’s not a secret.

And those links took zero effort to pull up. Immagine what an investigative jorunalist could do if looking for dirt and specifics on war profiteering.

God Bless,
Bill/QUOTE

In the last 50 years there have been Presadents that were one way when they were running and different when they were elected. You are frogeting about the Iraqi people, and that the Russians also were giving Hussian money and weapons. As for somesthing being ‘common knowledge’, are you blaming the US for the Iraq/Iran war because ‘common knowedge’ is that we ‘gave’ Hussin money and weapons? And are you blaming us for deaths in that war? I was not talking about was profiteering.