Hasn't the legalization of no-fault divorce and remarriage “redefined marriage” for 40 years now?

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I think we are in agreement that divorce is not a positive thing. However, the state (which is the only entity that has the power to do away with no-fault divorce) has no interest in making two people who do not want to stay together, stay together. Even if it’s just because the thrill is gone. If you take religion out of the equation (as the state is required to do) and look at it from a purely practical perspective, there is no up-side to forcing people to stay together if they don’t want to. All that does is breed conflict.
The state never has and never will FORCE people to stay together. You lose credibility by positing a completely unrealistic scenario

But the state does have a vested interest in supporting strong marriages. Married people are far less likely to need state support or state intervention. Their children are far less likely to get involved in drugs, premarital sex, pregnancy. They have fewer illnesses, mental or physical. They live longer. IOW stable married parents raising their own children present the lowest level of burden on the state and thus less of yours or my tax dollars are needed.

If you make irresponsibility easy. If you reward non productive behavior, you’ll get more of it. Societal pressure is a very powerful thing. When it was considered shameful to divorce, to get a girl pregnant and not step up and take responsibility, or even to sit on your butt for two years collecting unemployment, there was a lot less of it.

If you are under the illusion that when most couples stayed together and most children were born to married parents everyone was miserable, you haven’t looked at either the statistics or the studies, or even your own family’s experience. We have sowed misery through this libertine quest for “happiness.”

Lisa
 
I think you completely overstate the practice. Divorce simply was NOT nearly as common before the no fault rules…for ANY reason. Further there is a huge difference between very limited restrictions on granting divorces and requiring NO reason whatsoever. Realize that being able to get out of something easily makes entering the state a lot easier as well. The attitude “well if it doesn’t work out we can always divorce” spawned a generation who did not go into marriage with the right intent.

snip

Again don’t make the exception the rule. Yes there are marriages that must come apart due to “The Three A’s” Adultery, Abuse, Addiction. But for many marriages, I truly believe that they are entered into too casually and without believing that sometimes love is an act of will not just a funny feeling in your tummy when he walks in the room.

Lisa
Well said, Lisa. In the past, divorce was rare. One reason was there were standard, socially accepted steps a couple had to go through.
  1. You dated. NO sexual intercourse. It was meant to mean you met different people and got your feet wet.
  2. You went steady. This meant both of you wanted to get to know each other a little bit more, and AGAIN, zero time in the sack. You went out, had fun, talked about the future and were an exclusive couple. Because in your late teens and early 20’s, that’s all you were looking at.
  3. If both of you were still getting along, you went to courtship. This wasn’t just dating. You met her family, she met your family, because your family was part of what made you, you.
  4. Engagement. Now, in 1963 or 2013, if a guy wanted to marry a girl, he went to her father and said, “I want permission to marry your daughter” - after all, her dad would ‘give her away’ if they got married.
The really, really important reason was that her dad was in his late teens or 20’s once and knew exactly what it felt like. He would ask you what you needed to find out. “How will you take care of my daughter? Where will you live? Transportation? What kind of job do you have?” He would see past all the puppy-love and raging hormones and make the guy realize - “Hey, me and your daughter had better talk about all that.”

Now it didn’t matter if hers was a bad family, or you were raised by your aunt. You respected somebody and you went to that somebody to get clear-headed advice BEFORE the ceremony.

During the engagement period, you would spend time together doing things other than just dating, like shopping, watching TV, or failing that, and you should, going to the park or visiting with friends together. That way, you can see each other in different situations and start to get a feel for daily life together.

Does he go to the bar a lot, the races? Do illegal drugs? Time to find out - now.

AND YOU MUST, MUST ask the other person: “So, if we got married, what do you expect?”

I got my answer in the mid 1980s when things were still halfway normal: “I want money for clothes, jewelry and trips, and a big house by the water…” in an expensive part of town. Well, that was the end of that. You see, when I first met her, I thought she came from a working-class background like me. I mean, her family lived in Detroit when it was still halfway livable. Uh Uh. Her parents had divorced in her mid-teens and mom got the kids, and some money. My sweetheart was raised in Grosse Pointe, and she wanted to get back to her old life, plus perks.

But the family haters were on a mission.
  1. FORGET mom and dad. We’re old enough. We’ll do what we want.
  2. Movies started coming out about divorce where the guy would stop in at the local bar to tell his buddies. Were his buddies sad? No. They were happy. They were supportive. “You’ll find someone better.” What? He was a stupid idiot to marry the girl in the first place?
  3. Radical Feminists insisted all men were the enemy for all of the 1970s, which, I think, helped to add some fertilizer, in the form of fear, in some women’s heads – “They’re right. He’s probably having an affair with his secretary right now. Well I’ll show him! I’ll get one of those No–Fault Divorce things. He won’t take advantage of me. That liar!” And they told women to hate being stay at home moms. “Get a career! Get out of the house!! Drop those things off at day care!”
It was very gradual Lisa, and it was painful to watch it unfold. Divorce just got too easy and few people know how we got from point A to point B. No, the past was not perfect, but it was definitely better. And we had GOD in our lives and in our marriages. Now, as then, men and women had weaknesses and problems that would or could make marriage difficult, but you had relatives you could turn to. You could forgive each other and really try to make it work. But the marriage haters wanted families to be torn apart. The movies portrayed in-laws as nothing but busybodies who never really cared, who only wanted to control or manipulate the couple. That was not reality for most people. We had families and relatives and in-laws. That began to stop when we were told to distrust each other, to try other, better ways of living. What a bunch of lies.

And yes, for those who found themselves in bad marriages, priests were there to say that this cannot go on for the life and health of the wife/mother and children, if any.

We had this really big Catholic safety net, until the society/marriage wrecking crew came at us. “LISTEN TO US AND ONLY US.” We hate the family, God and the Church. We want it all to die. We heard parts of that before, and today, we’re hearing exactly what they wanted all along. Exactly like that.

continued…
 
Sex not love. With anybody - gay, straight or any mix or match combination you can think of.

Marriage for convenience, only to be thrown away at a moment’s notice.

For too many, even couples living together, one or other other gets tired of it, doesn’t want to make an effort and tells the other, “I want out.”

This is better? No. 100 hundred times, No. And the radical feminists? The media loves them. Men are still the enemy.

We had a chance to start solving the real problems men and women face, but no. Ending families and intergenerational ties was always the end goal. Love? What’s that? Friendship? Trust? As in, earning someone’s trust? Who needs that if we can just have dog sex and never see each other again.

That’s not normal. That’s not even human. It tears the soul out of relationships and societies.

Peace,
Ed
 
Yes, yes, Mr. JimG.

But what is so depressing to me is that there NO movement in the USA to rectify this. Nada.

There is a movement fighting gay marriage.

But even if it were to triumph (which increasingly seems unlikely), the so-called “marriage” that will have been saved, a “marriage” with legal use of birth control devices for contraception, and “marriage” that can be terminated on a whim by either party (no-fault divorce and remarriage), isn’t even marriage at all. The so-called “marriage” that still remains in the states that don’t yet recognize gay marriage is already a radically refined version of marriage that really isn’t even marriage.

Its like a person who has both terminal brain cancer and terminal liver cancer, and the patient and doctor agree to treat and get rid of the brain cancer only. Well, what’s the point? The patient is still going to be dead soon!

If the so-called conservatives in the USA only fight the “radical redefining of marriage” that state-recognized gay “marriage” creates, but do NOTHING to fight the “radical redefinition of marriage” that is created by the legalization of birth control pills and devices and the legalization of no-fault divorce and remarriage, what’s the point? The patient, that is, the civilization is dead anyway.

I guess this makes me depressed because it forces me to realize that there is no real conservative movement in America, just, in my opinion, various ambitious men who manipulate religious people for personal power and profit. They are all Lance Armstrongs.

Have you heard any conservative stand up on the floor of the U.S. Congress and call for a return to the traditional family law code in which both birth control devices and no-fault divorce are not legal?

That’s unthinkable, right?

That’s why I see the situation is hopeless, and see that there is no conservative movement in the USA. What get’s called the conservative movement is really just an Ayn Rand-based libertarian movement wanting to create unregulated capitalism (which the pope decried in his Jan. 1, 2013 message to the world, and the Catholic Church has always condemned).

It would give me hope if I could find even one organization that was truly fighting for Catholic principles and natural law. I’ve looked. But all I see are wily and craft politicians full of hypocrisy, duplicity and insincerity. They promote or fight only those things that bring them personal power and wealth.

And what’s the result of all this Lance Armstrong-type falseness? The result is that the Progressive are winning. They are winning. Just look at TV and the movies. Gay sex and gay relationships have reached an all-time high in terms of social acceptance.

More and more states are passing laws to allow gay marriage.

Liberals are winning and taking over America because there is no authentic conservative movement, just a big false one.
Please don’t take this the wrong way but you’re the glass is actually almost full but I believe it’s actually almost empty kind of poster.

Fact: Liberals hate a lot of kids and love abortions. Conservatives are having more babies.

Fact: nytimes.com/2005/04/14/international/worldspecial2/14youth.html?_r=0

catholicinjapan.wordpress.com/2009/03/27/young-catholics-increasingly-conservative/

firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/05/23/traditional-catholicism-winning-in-new-york/

To my fellow Catholics: The sky is not falling. With just over a billion Catholics worldwide, I think, with God’s help, we’ve got a good chance of turning things around from wild, crazy, do whatever you want, now! back to Normal on the social dial.

Peace,
Ed
 
“Liberals hate kids and love abortions”???

Look, I get that you disagree with liberals, but you’ve crossed the line into complete hyperbole with that one.
 
You mean the “rug rats”?

“[F]or the past 30 years or so, conservatives — particularly those of the right-wing red-state Christian strain — have been out-breeding liberals by a margin of at least 20 percent, if not far more. . . . One theory goes like this: Libs are generally more socially conscious and hence tend to actually give a modicum of thought to what it means to pop out a brood of children in this modern overstuffed age. Also, many other liberal bohos [Bohemians] are (admittedly) happy selfish suckwads who want all the modern booty for themselves and won’t want to give up the Ducati [motorcycle] and the plasma [television] and the biannual trip to Cinque Terre [Five Lands on the Italian Riviera] for the sake of a pod of rug rats and 15 grand a year (each) for private kindergarten. Translation: Libs just aren’t procreating like they could/should be.”

Peace,
Ed

Peace,
Ed
 
Please don’t take this the wrong way but you’re the glass is actually almost full but I believe it’s actually almost empty kind of poster.

Fact: Liberals hate a lot of kids and love abortions. Conservatives are having more babies.

Fact: nytimes.com/2005/04/14/international/worldspecial2/14youth.html?_r=0

catholicinjapan.wordpress.com/2009/03/27/young-catholics-increasingly-conservative/

firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/05/23/traditional-catholicism-winning-in-new-york/

To my fellow Catholics: The sky is not falling. With just over a billion Catholics worldwide, I think, with God’s help, we’ve got a good chance of turning things around from wild, crazy, do whatever you want, now! back to Normal on the social dial.

Peace,
Ed
Ed, I think I get your drift here. You place your hope in the fact that liberals don’t have kids and conservatives and religionists do. But remember, our kids go to their schools-- where they are indoctrinated into secularism. (Note the recent thread about the rise of “nones” --that is, people who consider themselves spiritual, but not religious. Who may believe in God but not in religion. In ethics but not morals.

Sure, I see young people in our Catholic schools around here who put the older generations to shame in their religious morals and devout Catholic practices. The question is, can they survive the all consuming indoctrination coming at them from the media, the popular culture, and especially, the universities? I hope so. But the signs are not good. Based upon their own experiences, many of them have lost hope that true lasting marriage is possible, and some have lost hope that truth is attainable.

I’m not trying to be a doomsayer. With God’s grace, anything is possible. But this culture has descended farther than I would have thought possible within my own lifetime. And it is not done yet.
 
Ed, I think I get your drift here. You place your hope in the fact that liberals don’t have kids and conservatives and religionists do. But remember, our kids go to their schools-- where they are indoctrinated into secularism. (Note the recent thread about the rise of “nones” --that is, people who consider themselves spiritual, but not religious. Who may believe in God but not in religion. In ethics but not morals.

Sure, I see young people in our Catholic schools around here who put the older generations to shame in their religious morals and devout Catholic practices. The question is, can they survive the all consuming indoctrination coming at them from the media, the popular culture, and especially, the universities? I hope so. But the signs are not good. Based upon their own experiences, many of them have lost hope that true lasting marriage is possible, and some have lost hope that truth is attainable.

I’m not trying to be a doomsayer. With God’s grace, anything is possible. But this culture has descended farther than I would have thought possible within my own lifetime. And it is not done yet.
The Church is about hope. We did not get from there to here overnight but we cannot assume that those who hate the truth will win out. That there are Catholics out there who are willing to speak up is a fact. We are called to be a community of believers, not a collection of individuals who go to Church, don’t even know who they’re standing next to, get in their cars and drive home.

Doing nothing is not an option. For those acting against the Church and the truth, they have no special powers and abilities. I’ve trained myself. Minimal TV viewing. Maybe one movie a year (usually superhero), and the only thing I listen to in my car is Catholic radio.

And the media? Yeah, I know. But we need and can get, the rest of the story.

ncregister.com/

And think of it this way. If we help even one person or save even one person, that is more than gaining any earthly thing. We can’t afford to think of this as only a few of us against a mass of them. God is in this. He will help us if we ask. This is not about saving a million overnight or some army of believers, but individuals helping individuals no matter how few we reach.

Peace,
Ed
 
“Liberals hate kids and love abortions”???

Look, I get that you disagree with liberals, but you’ve crossed the line into complete hyperbole with that one.
I think Ed commented they hate “LOTS” of kids…IOW small families, high incidence of abortion. Same thing happening in the ever more secular European countries, Japan and Russia. The less religion, the smaller the families, the higher the contraception and abortion use.

Maybe they will become an endangered species.

Lisa
 
I see a post like this and it really makes me wonder if anyone in America ever wonders if anything like this has been tried before anywhere in the world and you know how did that go for them.

for instance the UK right now.

“Employees, particularly teachers and others in the public sector, risk being kicked out of their profession unless they endorse same-sex marriage. All the concerns about how the redefinition of marriage will hit ordinary people are proving to be true,” Judge added.

“Local councils could be within their rights to stop couples from fostering if they believe in traditional marriage. Churches could be banned from using village halls if they refuse to do gay weddings. These are the kind of injustices that are likely to hit ordinary life if marriage is redefined.”

“If same-sex pseudo-marriages are allowed in law, the result will be compulsory teaching of same-sex marriage, dismissal for teachers with a conscientious objection to teaching about same-sex marriage, and no opt-out for faith schools,” Ozimic said

the source
lifesitenews.com/news/1000-uk-priests-warn-of-return-of-formal-persecution-with-gay-marriage-plan

its not some far out idea its happening right now today in the UK. 1/3 of the catholic clergy in the UK are scared of a return to the days of prison terms for conscientious objection. All because of the redefinition of marriage.

As to no fault divorce I’m not sure what is more sad that they made it legal for you to simply abandon the person you swore your life to, that they then had to explain it to people that you should only do it so many times in your life, that some states (Indiana) set that limit as high as 9, or the simple painful fact that I know someone who hit this limit before they were 40. No fault divorce (thank you gov of cali Ronald Ragan) was a tragic mistake which we are still paying for as a society. To commit another such mistake which will send us straight to where England and California are now is simply beyond rational thought to understand. No offence intended.
 
I see a post like this and it really makes me wonder if anyone in America ever wonders if anything like this has been tried before anywhere in the world and you know how did that go for them.

for instance the UK right now.

“Employees, particularly teachers and others in the public sector, risk being kicked out of their profession unless they endorse same-sex marriage. All the concerns about how the redefinition of marriage will hit ordinary people are proving to be true,” Judge added.

“Local councils could be within their rights to stop couples from fostering if they believe in traditional marriage. Churches could be banned from using village halls if they refuse to do gay weddings. These are the kind of injustices that are likely to hit ordinary life if marriage is redefined.”

“If same-sex pseudo-marriages are allowed in law, the result will be compulsory teaching of same-sex marriage, dismissal for teachers with a conscientious objection to teaching about same-sex marriage, and no opt-out for faith schools,” Ozimic said

the source
lifesitenews.com/news/1000-uk-priests-warn-of-return-of-formal-persecution-with-gay-marriage-plan

its not some far out idea its happening right now today in the UK. 1/3 of the catholic clergy in the UK are scared of a return to the days of prison terms for conscientious objection. All because of the redefinition of marriage.

As to no fault divorce I’m not sure what is more sad that they made it legal for you to simply abandon the person you swore your life to, that they then had to explain it to people that you should only do it so many times in your life, that some states (Indiana) set that limit as high as 9, or the simple painful fact that I know someone who hit this limit before they were 40. No fault divorce (thank you gov of cali Ronald Ragan) was a tragic mistake which we are still paying for as a society. To commit another such mistake which will send us straight to where England and California are now is simply beyond rational thought to understand. No offence intended.
Part of the problem is that our culture worships a faux equality. The idea that same sex so-called marriage would be held out as a worse moral offense than any other sexual sin will not be tolerated. Moral theology does not matter. Logic does not matter. Common sense does not matter. The “gay” agenda marches on.
 
I think Ed commented they hate “LOTS” of kids…IOW small families, high incidence of abortion. Same thing happening in the ever more secular European countries, Japan and Russia. The less religion, the smaller the families, the higher the contraception and abortion use.

Maybe they will become an endangered species.

Lisa
I just find the whole thing hysterical. I know liberals with large families, I know conservatives who chose not to have kids because (gasp) they didn’t WANT them! Real people are not one-dimensional, and they don’t fit into the tidy little boxes that some here at CAF continually put them in.
 
I just find the whole thing hysterical. I know liberals with large families, I know conservatives who chose not to have kids because (gasp) they didn’t WANT them! Real people are not one-dimensional, and they don’t fit into the tidy little boxes that some here at CAF continually put them in.
As you are doing. One can make an observation, based on facts, statistics, experience, whatever and there are invariably exceptions to that rule. But the exception doesn’t make the rule does it? Must one temper every statement with the possibility of exception?

Here is reality: the Left is very pro-abortion…thus any attempt to even limit abortion, defund Planned Parenthood or even inform pregnant women of options are fought tooth and nail. I do not think EdWest overspoke in saying the Left loves abortion. Love means more than a funny feeling in your tummy. Love is an act of will. Love is loyalty and defending the object or concept. Thus I believe the Left does love abortion. The Left makes a god of equality…ergo the demand for “same sex marriage” or demands there be a certain number of people of color or women in every element of society.

However I know liberal gays who are against SSM and I know far Left idealogues who are against abortion. So what… I also know Conservatives who are for SSM and against limits on abortion.

But in general and for purposes of the discussion here, I don’t think hair splitting is necessary do you?

Lisa
 
No fault divorce laws never should have been legalized if you ask me. I think they were bad for marriage. However, that doesn’t mean that these laws “redefined” marriage. The legalization of gay “marriage” however most definitely would redefine marriage.
 
Yep. Divorce was the hill we should’ve died on. Gay “marriage” and every other perversion that will follow in its wake is a mere aftershock.

This is, in fact, part of the reason I think so many Catholics are silly to think engaging with the culture is the right strategy going forward. We very likely won’t win on gay “marriage,” at least not in our lifetimes, but even if we won, we’d still lose – the understanding of marriage as a sacrament would still be effectively ruined because of divorce which no one would ever dare touch or change in any way.

So what’s the point of engaging with the culture? It’s high time we stop thinking about how to save Western civilization and start thinking about how to save ourselves from Western civilization.
 
To sw85,

Wow. Can this get more negative? From the National Catholic Register:

"Don’t Pick and Choose

"Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone of San Francisco, who leads the USCCB’s effort to engage the culture and advance Catholic teaching on marriage, noted during a Nov. 12 press conference that too many Catholics “view these issues politically rather than through the lens of the Gospel.”

"He expressed the hope that Church leaders and local pastors would challenge the tendency to understand social justice in purely economic terms while ignoring the justice of Church teaching on marriage and life.

"Indeed, lest any of his brother bishops lose heart in their efforts to challenge contemporary attitudes about marriage, Archbishop Cordileone highlighted the Holy See’s view that “marriage holds the key to advancing the New Evangelization.”

"Archbishop Lori noted during a press conference, “It is never a good idea to pick and choose the Church’s social teaching.”

"He also suggested that many Catholics failed to appreciate that when defending religious freedom and the sanctity of the family Church leaders were also fighting for one of the legacies of the American Republic — the important role of churches and other civic institutions that mediate between the individual and the state. Local relief efforts in the wake of Hurricane Sandy have highlighted the role of Church-affiliated groups like Catholic Charities and the Knights of Columbus, as well as family members and neighbors who often fill the vacuum left by larger relief efforts.

“Where you have people helping people at the more human level, that is how the Church plays an important role in serving the common good,” Archbishop Lori said. “One reason we are so dedicated to supporting marriage and the family is that this is a critical structure."

Read more: ncregister.com/daily-news/cardinal-dolan-engage-christ-first#ixzz2IFdTdeMN

Calling President Reagan’s signing No-Fault Divorce into law a mistake is a bit too kind. These sorts of things are debated, not just printed out of thin air for him to sign. Like any contract I’ve seen, all the wording has to be there or it will not survive any legal challenges. It has to be bulletproof.

Here is the PRIMARY REASON we got from there to now: Pope Paul VI having Humanae Vitae published in 1968.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

The reaction from dissidents inside the Church was described as “an event unprecedented in the history of the Church.” Got that?

“Within 24 hours, in an event unprecedented in the history of the Church, more than 200 dissenting theologians signed a full-page ad in The New York Times in protest. Not only did they declare their disagreement with encyclical’s teaching; they went one step further, far beyond their authority as theologians, and actually encouraged dissent among the lay faithful.”

Next, the radicals had to LIE to the American people and the Media to get the ultimate form of birth control passed into law.

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/abortion/articles-and-addresses/an-ex-abortionist-speaks/

Did WE, The People vote for this? NO. It was forced on us by the Supreme Court. And aided and abetted by lies like “it’s just a blob of tissue,” and “it’s not a baby until it’s born.”

And let’s not forget the flood of Adult Bookstores selling graphic, gynecological porn opening up in the 1970s, along with strip clubs and and topless bars to multiply temptations. Just a few years prior, the worst you could do was Playboy. And make no mistake about it, this cost millions of dollars for prostitutes, printers, photographers, filmmakers, distributors, the buying, renting or leasing of buildings and paying staff. And lawyers to defend the porn makers from “religious nuts” like us.

Peace,
Ed
 
As you are doing. One can make an observation, based on facts, statistics, experience, whatever and there are invariably exceptions to that rule. But the exception doesn’t make the rule does it? Must one temper every statement with the possibility of exception?

Here is reality: the Left is very pro-abortion…thus any attempt to even limit abortion, defund Planned Parenthood or even inform pregnant women of options are fought tooth and nail. I do not think EdWest overspoke in saying the Left loves abortion. Love means more than a funny feeling in your tummy. Love is an act of will. Love is loyalty and defending the object or concept. Thus I believe the Left does love abortion. The Left makes a god of equality…ergo the demand for “same sex marriage” or demands there be a certain number of people of color or women in every element of society.

However I know liberal gays who are against SSM and I know far Left idealogues who are against abortion. So what… I also know Conservatives who are for SSM and against limits on abortion.

But in general and for purposes of the discussion here, I don’t think hair splitting is necessary do you?

Lisa/

I don’t know one single person in the REAL world who “loves abortion”. It’s a medical procedure for most of the world, and for most who avail themselves of it, something not entered into because they “hate children” or just love killing babies. I’ve read both of those accusations on this site frequently.

If there is ANY hope of eliminating abortion in this society, some semblance of reality has to enter into the argument. Otherwise, you run the risk of continuing to be presented as irrational extremists and dismissed entirely.
 
Part of the problem is that our culture worships a faux equality. The idea that same sex so-called marriage would be held out as a worse moral offense than any other sexual sin will not be tolerated. Moral theology does not matter. Logic does not matter. Common sense does not matter. The “gay” agenda marches on.
I no longer feel like a part of “our culture.” I lost that feeling in 1973 when abortion was legalized by the Supreme Court - not the people - and radicals, anarchists and (using the dictionary definition) sexual deviants started to repeat over and over and over and over and over again (translating from the slang vernacular of the 1970s): “Leave us alone!! We’ll live with our girlfriends and have lots of sex and not get married!” “We don’t care about God and the Church or some piece of paper (marriage license).” “I’m addicted to porn and I love masturbating!!” “I love going to topless bars and strip clubs. It’s legal!” “I’m going to buy the latest, very thick, Swingers magazine and drool while looking at page after page of nude or semi-nude girls who want secret, no strings attached sex!! It’s great!”

And for gays? 1973 was the year radical gay activists and gays inside the American Psychological Association voted that what was a disorder yesterday was no longer a disorder today. Pretty amazing considering years of research and published reports - including interviews with homosexual persons - suddenly no longer mattered at the same time. Research that was valid yesterday, just disappeared the following day. There was an outcry, of course.

amazon.com/Homosexuality-American-Psychiatry-Politics-Diagnosis/dp/0691028370

thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/204/81-words

This opened the door that got us from there to today. The next step was to strike down sodomy laws, followed by attempts to gradually make gay behavior appear harmless and then OK, and once the polling data numbers got high enough, to introduce same-sex marriage and adoption, but it was a slow, gradual process so the straights (or squares or country bumpkins) wouldn’t see gay marriage coming. Until, one day, they went to vote and same-sex marriage was on the ballot. Suddenly, there were billboards showing gay men and words of promotion.

So now, even here, it’s “the APA says it’s OK.”

Peace,
Ed
 
LisaA;10251766:
As you are doing. One can make an observation, based on facts, statistics, experience, whatever and there are invariably exceptions to that rule. But the exception doesn’t make the rule does it? Must one temper every statement with the possibility of exception?

Here is reality: the Left is very pro-abortion…thus any attempt to even limit abortion, defund Planned Parenthood or even inform pregnant women of options are fought tooth and nail. I do not think EdWest overspoke in saying the Left loves abortion. Love means more than a funny feeling in your tummy. Love is an act of will. Love is loyalty and defending the object or concept. Thus I believe the Left does love abortion. The Left makes a god of equality…ergo the demand for “same sex marriage” or demands there be a certain number of people of color or women in every element of society.

However I know liberal gays who are against SSM and I know far Left idealogues who are against abortion. So what… I also know Conservatives who are for SSM and against limits on abortion.

But in general and for purposes of the discussion here, I don’t think hair splitting is necessary do you?

Lisa/

I don’t know one single person in the REAL world who “loves abortion”. It’s a medical procedure for most of the world, and for most who avail themselves of it, something not entered into because they “hate children” or just love killing babies. I’ve read both of those accusations on this site frequently.

If there is ANY hope of eliminating abortion in this society, some semblance of reality has to enter into the argument. Otherwise, you run the risk of continuing to be presented as irrational extremists and dismissed entirely.
Being Catholic sometimes does cause us to miss a few things going on in the real world, because of our desire to consciously avoid temptation. But extremists? I don’t think so.

cafepress.com/+i-love-abortion+gifts

From salon: salon.com/2012/08/25/abortion_a_love_story/

“Is it over?” I asked the nurse who was sitting at a desk in the recovery room.

“All over, sweetheart,” she said.

“I’m freezing,” I told her.

“Let’s get that IV out.” She removed the ice-water needle with a pinch. “You can leave when you can stand up on your own to pee,” she said. I tried to move my legs, but they were heavy sacks of mud. I leaned my head against the chair and dozed a little. Girls in various stages of awake laid limp in the overstuffed chairs. Everyone seemed so small.

"I drank a paper cup full of ice chips until I was able to waddle over to the bathroom. The nausea was gone – it was exhilarating. I ate a hard grape Jolly Rancher from a glass bowl next to the sink and didn’t want to puke it up. Instant — just like that.

“It’s just a mass of tissue,” the doctor had said before she put me to sleep. “Not anything like a baby.”

“But it had a heart,” I thought, or said aloud."

A few words from Reality Check:

rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/03/14/choice-words-about-abortion-0

Peace,
Ed
 
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