Hasn't time proven that Protestanism always leads to Heresy

[Hail_Linus]

Catholics and Orthodox are often accused by Protestants of altering Christianity and becoming heretical. Yet since the time of the reformation Catholics and Orthodox have remained the same in their theology which gives credence to their belief that they have never changed and are loyal to the first century Church.

Protestants, on the other hand, have never stopped changing. It is safe to assume the reformers would view all modern day Protestants as heretics. Even the Lutherans and Protestants have not remained loyal to Luther and Calvin. The King James Bible, beloved by so many Protestants, originally contained the Deuterocanonical books, and they were considered inspired scripture. It even seems that the Church of England has fulfilled Aldous Huxley’s prophesy that one day the Archbishop of Canterbury would become Arch-Community Songster making the sign of the T instead of the sign of the cross.

Protestantism has proven that it is a recipe for theological change. Catholicism and Orthodoxy have proven immune to changes of theology.

 

[Cat]

Catholics and Orthodox are often accused by Protestants of altering Christianity and becoming heretical. Yet since the time of the reformation Catholics and Orthodox have remained the same in their theology which gives credence to their belief that they have never changed and are loyal to the first century Church.

Protestants, on the other hand, have never stopped changing. It is safe to assume the reformers would view all modern day Protestants as heretics. Even the Lutherans and Protestants have not remained loyal to Luther and Calvin. The King James Bible, beloved by so many Protestants, originally contained the Deuterocanonical books, and they were considered inspired scripture. It even seems that the Church of England has fulfilled Aldous Huxley’s prophesy that one day the Archbishop of Canterbury would become Arch-Community Songster making the sign of the T instead of the sign of the cross.

Protestantism has proven that it is a recipe for theological change. Catholicism and Orthodoxy have proven immune to changes of theology.

Do you know any Protestants? Are you friends with them? Have you attended Protestant churches and read up on their beliefs, as well as experienced Protestantism in person?

The basic message–that Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, and will save those who believe in Him remains unchanged. John 3:16 is still the essence of Christianity for many Protestants and Catholics as well. Therefore the accusation of “heresy” is not warranted, as the basic theology is constant. Heresy refers to theology, not Christian practices.

Many Protestants, especially Baptists, would say that change is proof that they are living Christianity the way Christ intended His people to live it. Conversely, some Protestants would say that the Catholic and Orthodox insistence on clinging to ancient practices is proof that they have failed to allow the Holy Spirit to lead them.

Protestants point to passages such as Matthew 9: 16-17, in which Jesus speaks of putting new wine in new wineskins."

Protestants don’t accept that the practice of Christianity remains unchanged through the centuries. Just as the Jewish Christians moved out of the synagogues into home churches and eventualy into large buildings, and just as those large buildings were different in different parts of the world, we continue to re-make “church” and “worship” and re-define exactly “how” we should “do church” and practice worship. This is a good thing, according to many Protestants.

Many Protestants find the ancient Catholic and Orthodox practices, worship styles, music, prayers, etc. “ritualistic” and utterly irrelevant to modern man. They believe that the Holy Spirit is constantly working to update Christian practices, giving us new music, new architectures, etc.

I will admit that I tend to think along Protestant lines when it comes to “church.” I find the past quaint and interesting, but not relevant to me personally. I have a very difficult time with ancient worship–to me it is theatrical. I can’t see God in it. I see man–a choreographed, scripted “play” instead of a “Mass.” I have little interest in the past, other than to preserve a record of it so that we will always remember where we came from and learn from our mistakes. But as far as I’m concerned, we’re no longer there. We’re HERE, NOW, and I for one want to live modern, not ancient.

I respect those who feel differently. And I also want to make it clear that I submit to the Church in whatever they ask us to do and practice, even if it doesn’t please me personally. I understand and agree that “it’s not all about me.”

 

[Cat]

Catholics and Orthodox are often accused by Protestants of altering Christianity and becoming heretical. Yet since the time of the reformation Catholics and Orthodox have remained the same in their theology which gives credence to their belief that they have never changed and are loyal to the first century Church.

Protestants, on the other hand, have never stopped changing. It is safe to assume the reformers would view all modern day Protestants as heretics. Even the Lutherans and Protestants have not remained loyal to Luther and Calvin. The King James Bible, beloved by so many Protestants, originally contained the Deuterocanonical books, and they were considered inspired scripture. It even seems that the Church of England has fulfilled Aldous Huxley’s prophesy that one day the Archbishop of Canterbury would become Arch-Community Songster making the sign of the T instead of the sign of the cross.

Protestantism has proven that it is a recipe for theological change. Catholicism and Orthodoxy have proven immune to changes of theology.

Do you know any Protestants? Are you friends with them? Have you attended Protestant churches and read up on their beliefs, as well as experienced Protestantism in person?

Many Protestants, especially Baptists, would say that change is proof that they are living Christianity the way Christ intended His people to live it. Conversely, some Protestants would say that the Catholic and Orthodox insistence on clinging to ancient practices is proof that they have failed to allow the Holy Spirit to lead them.

Protestants point to passages such as Matthew 9: 16-17, in which Jesus speaks of putting new wine in new wineskins."

Protestants don’t accept that the practice of Christianity remains unchanged through the centuries. Just as the Jewish Christians moved out of the synagogues into home churches and eventualy into large buildings, and just as those large buildings were different in different parts of the world, we continue to re-make “church” and “worship” and re-define exactly “how” we should “do church” and practice worship. This is a good thing, according to many Protestants.

Many Protestants find the ancient Catholic and Orthodox practices, worship styles, music, prayers, etc. “ritualistic” and utterly irrelevant to modern man. They believe that the Holy Spirit is constantly working to update Christian practices, giving us new music, new architectures, etc.

I tend to be this way. I find it quaint and interesting, but not relevant to me personally. I have a very difficult time with ancient worship–to me it is theatrical. I can’t see God in it.

The basic message–that Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, and will save those who believe in Him remains unchanged. John 3:16 is still the essence of Christianity for many Protestants and Catholics as well. Therefore the accusation of “heresy” is not warranted, as the basic theology is constant. Heresy refers to theology, not practices.

I have to admit, I tend to side with the Protestants on this. I have no interest in the past, other than to preserve a record of it so that we will always remember where we came from and learn from our mistakes. But as far as I’m concerned, we’re no longer there. We’re HERE, NOW, and I for one want to live modern, not ancient.

I respect those who feel differently.

 

[Hail_Linus]

Do you know any Protestants? Are you friends with them? Have you attended Protestant churches and read up on their beliefs, as well as experienced Protestantism in person?

The basic message–that Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, and will save those who believe in Him remains unchanged. John 3:16 is still the essence of Christianity for many Protestants and Catholics as well. Therefore the accusation of “heresy” is not warranted, as the basic theology is constant. Heresy refers to theology, not Christian practices.

Many Protestants, especially Baptists, would say that change is proof that they are living Christianity the way Christ intended His people to live it. Conversely, some Protestants would say that the Catholic and Orthodox insistence on clinging to ancient practices is proof that they have failed to allow the Holy Spirit to lead them.

Protestants point to passages such as Matthew 9: 16-17, in which Jesus speaks of putting new wine in new wineskins."

Protestants don’t accept that the practice of Christianity remains unchanged through the centuries. Just as the Jewish Christians moved out of the synagogues into home churches and eventualy into large buildings, and just as those large buildings were different in different parts of the world, we continue to re-make “church” and “worship” and re-define exactly “how” we should “do church” and practice worship. This is a good thing, according to many Protestants.

Many Protestants find the ancient Catholic and Orthodox practices, worship styles, music, prayers, etc. “ritualistic” and utterly irrelevant to modern man. They believe that the Holy Spirit is constantly working to update Christian practices, giving us new music, new architectures, etc.

I will admit that I tend to think along Protestant lines when it comes to “church.” I find the past quaint and interesting, but not relevant to me personally. I have a very difficult time with ancient worship–to me it is theatrical. I can’t see God in it. I see man–a choreographed, scripted “play” instead of a “Mass.” I have little interest in the past, other than to preserve a record of it so that we will always remember where we came from and learn from our mistakes. But as far as I’m concerned, we’re no longer there. We’re HERE, NOW, and I for one want to live modern, not ancient.

I respect those who feel differently. And I also want to make it clear that I submit to the Church in whatever they ask us to do and practice, even if it doesn’t please me personally. I understand and agree that “it’s not all about me.”

Yes of course I know Protestants and have studied about them. I even tried to be one. What I found was a chaotic theology.

Another thing, Protestants I know always say that Catholics have strayed from the original Christianity. Now you tell me that not being like the original Christians is good.

The original Christians were against contraception, Abortion, divorce, etc. Do you really believe that God’s morality changes? Is God not unchanging.

What your saying sounds like progressivism. Of course in order to measure progress one has to have a fixed starting point with a fixed goal. How can you progress when you do not even know where you are going?

 

[Curious_Seed]

Catholics and Orthodox are often accused by Protestants of altering Christianity and becoming heretical. Yet since the time of the reformation Catholics and Orthodox have remained the same in their theology which gives credence to their belief that they have never changed and are loyal to the first century Church.

Protestants, on the other hand, have never stopped changing. It is safe to assume the reformers would view all modern day Protestants as heretics. Even the Lutherans and Protestants have not remained loyal to Luther and Calvin. The King James Bible, beloved by so many Protestants, originally contained the Deuterocanonical books, and they were considered inspired scripture. It even seems that the Church of England has fulfilled Aldous Huxley’s prophesy that one day the Archbishop of Canterbury would become Arch-Community Songster making the sign of the T instead of the sign of the cross.

Protestantism has proven that it is a recipe for theological change. Catholicism and Orthodoxy have proven immune to changes of theology.

" Catholics and Orthodox are often accused by Protestants of altering Christianity and becoming heretical. "

Often accused?

Altering Christianity?

Nonsense.

Some Protestants, as some Catholics, and some Orthodox, have personal biases, founded upon air – no doubt.

But, all Protestants?

Such thinking reveals your own air-based bias.

“ Since the Reformation, Catholics and Orthodox have remained loyal to their theology, which lends credence to their beliefs, unchanged, and loyalty to the first-century Church. ”

Ok; but, words like loyalty, theology, beliefs, and unchanged are ponderous in meaning and intention.

So, this makes your statement, employing all of these words, so utterly broad in scope, as to be inutile for discussion.

“ Protestants, on the other hand, have never stopped changing and it is safe to say reformers view all modern day Protestants, as heretics. ”

Your expertise on the history of Protestantism is surpassed only by the genius of your insight into its significance.

Truly underwhelming.

The bulb of brilliance burns brightly for those who can find the switch.

Thank you for sharing that some never do.

 

[Link0126]

I agree with you. But they simply don’t see it that way. A protestant once told me that their democratic system is better b/c you are allowing theological ideas to be “filtered” through “Godly men”. This way if someone makes a theological mistake, which many have in his mind (everyone he disagrees with), than eventually the mistakes will be sorted out from the truth. This is a superior to what the Catholics do b/c if the Pope makes a mistake it’s set in stone.

Of course, this is a misconception but this is what some of them actually think. In reality, no truth is ever ascertained and no mistake ever corrected. Instead, more and more people just picking sides and splintering off even more.

 

[MarkBrown]

Yes of course I know Protestants and have studied about them. I even tried to be one. What I found was a chaotic theology.

Another thing, Protestants I know always say that Catholics have strayed from the original Christianity. Now you tell me that not being like the original Christians is good.

The original Christians were against contraception, Abortion, divorce, etc. Do you really believe that God’s morality changes? Is God not unchanging.

What your saying sounds like progressivism. Of course in order to measure progress one has to have a fixed starting point with a fixed goal. How can you progress when you do not even know where you are going?

I see what you are saying, you are just making a too broad comment. Just because SOME protestants and SOME catholics have go off the deep in does not mean all have. You allude that all protestants are for and all catholics are against contraception, abortion, divorce etc. Really?! Know many catholics do you?

Yes the Church has codified in the catechisms and canons the position on these evils. As have protestant churches. Yes some Anglican, Presybeterians etc have codifed or over looked these sins…ahem so do most of the catholics in the pews and way to many priests and bishops.

God’s morality does not change as God does not change. Also, I would advise you to read Church history. Sadly at times, ie Arianism, the Church fell into heresy. Yes Nicea came out against it and gave us a creed we still say today (though the Jesusit priest at the catholic college I attended thought it was old fashion/outdated and need to be changed), but for about 70 years it was a big part of the church, some of our Saints are Saints because they were part of those faithful few who held to Christianity and opposed the christology heresy of Arianism.

The difference is the Church, through the power of the Holy Spirit, corrected itself. But do not think it can not happen again. Like with Arianism, the church is rife with the spirit of the age today. Catholics use contraception, abortions, divorces just as much as protestants and non-christians.

As Christ said, “let those with out sin cast the first stone.” Let us pray for the Church and the protestants. Lord knows we both need it.

Mark

 

[Alix1912]

The premise of this thread doesn’t even make sense. This entire thread smacks of exactly what drives most protestants AWAY from the Catholic Church. The “we are perfect, you are stupid” attitude which blantantly false.

Many Protestant churchs have held to their values, and I’m sorry but the Reformation happened for a reason…the church was corrupt and needed to be reformed. Catholics are not perfect…no one is. They are also not smarter or better than anyone else. Quit acting like it and you might win more people over. Keep acting like it and you feed the anti Catholics more material to use in their sterotypes. Your Call.

 

[JackVk]

You know, there are a good number of Protestants who come to the youth group I go to at a Catholic church, and seeing them, as well as one comment a Protestant once said on Catholic Answers Live, has led me to conclude that Catholics and Protestants have much more in common than we think. We both believe in the Holy Trinity, the Virgin Birth, the full humanity and full divinity of Christ, the death and resurrection of Christ, the Ascension into heaven, and that Christ will come again at the end of time. These are the central tenets of the Christian faith, as CS Lewis calls it, “Mere Christianity”. Most of the stuff we argue about is mundane compared to the central tenets of the faith (though it’s still important), we have more in common than we do differences.

 

[valentino]

No.There are many well intentioned protestants in many different denominations.Not knowing the whole truth doesn’t mean you can’t have some truth.Jesus said about those casting out devils in His name;“leave them alone if they aren’t against us they are for Us”.Let protestants be protestants.I can’t see where they hurt anyone of course unless they make false statements knowingly.To spread the word of Jesus even if isn;t entirely accurate is better than not spreading it at all IMO.I listen to Many different preacheers on tv and enjoy most of them.You can tell they are Catholic if you listen very long but many have very good teachings.Many protestant convert to Catholicm every year.We had about 12 this year at the Easter vigil.

 

[josephback]

Catholics and Orthodox are often accused by Protestants of altering Christianity and becoming heretical. Yet since the time of the reformation Catholics and Orthodox have remained the same in their theology which gives credence to their belief that they have never changed and are loyal to the first century Church.

Protestants, on the other hand, have never stopped changing. It is safe to assume the reformers would view all modern day Protestants as heretics. Even the Lutherans and Protestants have not remained loyal to Luther and Calvin. The King James Bible, beloved by so many Protestants, originally contained the Deuterocanonical books, and they were considered inspired scripture. It even seems that the Church of England has fulfilled Aldous Huxley’s prophesy that one day the Archbishop of Canterbury would become Arch-Community Songster making the sign of the T instead of the sign of the cross.

Protestantism has proven that it is a recipe for theological change. Catholicism and Orthodoxy have proven immune to changes of theology.

Catholicism and Orthodoxy are basically the same until you come to the Pope. I agree that Protestantism is subject to constant change. Looking back that was a good reason to flee from it. Without the Magisterium there’s no way to tell whose interpretation of Scripture is right.

Luther and Calvin to my understanding believed that baptism was required for salvation, but the organization I grew up in said it was only a symbol. It would be interesting to see what Luther and Calvin thought about how the Protestant world looks today.

 

[josephback]

The premise of this thread doesn’t even make sense. This entire thread smacks of exactly what drives most protestants AWAY from the Catholic Church. The “we are perfect, you are stupid” attitude which blantantly false.

Many Protestant churchs have held to their values, and I’m sorry but the Reformation happened for a reason…the church was corrupt and needed to be reformed. Catholics are not perfect…no one is. They are also not smarter or better than anyone else. Quit acting like it and you might win more people over. Keep acting like it and you feed the anti Catholics more material to use in their sterotypes. Your Call.

Protestants aren’t stupid, but they are misled. Sometimes we on the Catholic side might be arrogant in our way of stating that. The Church at the time of the Revolution was corrupt in its administration, but it got reform at Trent. The real difference that set Luther and Calvin apart from others was their reforming (or rather, deforming) of Church theology. That’s what I have a problem with. When they split with the Church their theology led scores of people away into doctrinal confusion and endless schism. Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide make war on the Church and the faith. It is doctrines I have a problem with. Hopefully myself and others can be better in our assertion of that.

 

[Cat]

Yes of course I know Protestants and have studied about them. I even tried to be one. What I found was a chaotic theology.

Another thing, Protestants I know always say that Catholics have strayed from the original Christianity. Now you tell me that not being like the original Christians is good.

The original Christians were against contraception, Abortion, divorce, etc. Do you really believe that God’s morality changes? Is God not unchanging.

What your saying sounds like progressivism. Of course in order to measure progress one has to have a fixed starting point with a fixed goal. How can you progress when you do not even know where you are going?

I tried to make it clear in my post that I am talking about practices, not theology or morality. I guess I didn’t make it clear. I apologize for the muddiness.

Most Protestant denominations still teach that abortion, divorce, etc. are wrong–in other words, they still teach basic Christian morality . Contraception is accepted by most Protestant denominations. But that’s the exception. In all other respects, most evangelical Protestant denominations, along with other Protestant denominations, will agree with all Catholic Church teachings about Christian morality.

What I was talking about in my post is the basic “practice” of "church. E.g., while Catholics and older denominations of Protestants still practice a liturgical worship, many Protestant denominations have long abandoned liturgy and use a more “free” worship form.

Another example is music. While the Catholic Church continues to list Gregorian chant as the music style that has pride of place in a Mass, most Protestant denominations have long abandoned ancient music styles and constantly make use of new music styles in their church services as our culture changes.

Liturgical forms and musical styles have nothing to do with morality or theology.

Yes, some Protestants want to have “church” the way it was in the New Testament. Some Protestant denominations are part of what’s called “the Restoration Movement.” As far as I know, this movement was started in the 19th Century by the Campbell brothers, who wanted to “restore” the worship in the Church to the way it was in the New Testament. Restorationists don’t usually look outside of the Bible to see how the early church functioned. That’s why many of the Restorationists advocate home churches, shared leadership by a number of elders and deacons, etc.

But there are many other Protestant denominations that aren’t part of the Restorationist movement, and believe in progress and change.

Many Protestants do know where they’re going–they’re going to heaven and they want to take as many people as possible along with them!

Most Protestant churches have a “mission statement” and a “statement of faith,” and many have written goals that they are working towards. E.g., in the Christian and Missionary Alliance denomination, the goal has always been to preach the Gospel to everyone in the world so that Christ can return. (The Bible says that Jesus won’t come again until the Gospel has been preached everywhere). To this end, the C and MA denomination spends a huge portion of their budget on foreign missions, rather than on programs here in the U.S. and Canada. They KNOW where they’re going–overseas to preach the Gospel.

Other Protestant denominations, especially the older denominations (called “mainstreams”) have goals of feeding the hungry and providing for those who are disadvantaged. For this reason, many of the mainline denominations maintain church presence in the inner cities, where the poor are clustered. They spend much of their budget on various programs to assist those in need and reach out to help the helpless (except the unborn–many of the mainline denominations are pro-choice, sadly).

The evangelical denominations have the duel goal of preaching the gospel and making disciples. So that’s how they plan their budget, paying for programs that will accomplish both of these goals.

Some denominations have the goal of staying separate from others, and they spend their budget on schools, nursing homes, and other establishments that make it possible for their members to spend almost their entire lives, from birth through old age, in the protective fortress of the church.

I sympathize with you about chaotic theology among Protestants. That’s one of the reasons my husband and I converted. But like JackVk pointed out, there is a lot that Catholics and Protestants have in common. It is probably better in this day and age to emphasize these similiarities rather than the differences. Our goal should always be to see the Protestant churches restored to full fellowship as Catholic churches. That goal, IMO, is best accomplished by practicing charity and keeping doors open between us and “them.”

 

[Hail_Linus]

I see what you are saying, you are just making a too broad comment. Just because SOME protestants and SOME catholics have go off the deep in does not mean all have. You allude that all protestants are for and all catholics are against contraception, abortion, divorce etc. Really?! Know many catholics do you?

Yes the Church has codified in the catechisms and canons the position on these evils. As have protestant churches. Yes some Anglican, Presybeterians etc have codifed or over looked these sins…ahem so do most of the catholics in the pews and way to many priests and bishops.

Sorry if I did not make it clear but I am not comparing the people or even the clergy. I agree there are many Protestant that are wonderful Christians and many Catholics who are lousy Christians. There are many Protestants I admire and many have inspired me. If it were not for Joel Osteen I may still be a non-practicing synchrenitic Christian. I am just talking about theology.

God’s morality does not change as God does not change. Also, I would advise you to read Church history. Sadly at times, ie Arianism, the Church fell into heresy. Yes Nicea came out against it and gave us a creed we still say today (though the Jesusit priest at the catholic college I attended thought it was old fashion/outdated and need to be changed), but for about 70 years it was a big part of the church, some of our Saints are Saints because they were part of those faithful few who held to Christianity and opposed the christology heresy of Arianism.

1. I have studied Church history. Not only from the point of view of the Church but also from the view of the Roman Empire. I have a very extensive personal library regarding the Roman Empire including an enormous amount of Roman documents concerning the Church.
2. As I said above, we have many lousy priests and unfortunately, while I do know some wonderful Jesuit Priests, the order has been infected with the Progressive mentality that has infected the Anglican Church, among others.
3. The Church never accepted Arianism. Unlike many people think, there wasn’t even a vote at Nicea. The issue was so absurd that the Pope and most western Bishops did not even bother attending even though Constantine offered to pay for the trip. As soon as Arius opened his mouth he got slapped in the face. Nicea was really about coming up with a creed that would prevent this heresy in the future.

The difference is the Church, through the power of the Holy Spirit, corrected itself. But do not think it can not happen again. Like with Arianism, the church is rife with the spirit of the age today. Catholics use contraception, abortions, divorces just as much as protestants and non-christians.

1. I agree, just as a person needs to always be correcting himself, so does the Church.
2. This is related to what my criticism is about. The Church is always able to correct itself because it knows what normal is. How can a Church correct itself if it does not have a fixed theology?

As Christ said, “let those with out sin cast the first stone.” Let us pray for the Church and the protestants. Lord knows we both need it.

Mark

Amen

 

[Jesus_123]

****+In answer to the original question . . . NO…

The sad ignorance, prejudice and bigotry against protestants expressed in the original post . . . which term . . . protestant . . . is a huge generality . . . an umbrella under which many many Godly ecclesial communities of** God’s **beloved children exist . . . is completely unacceptable . . . multiple heresies of all sorts and types existed for centuries upon centuries . . . right back to the first century of the Catholic Church’s existence . . . long before any form whatsoever of protestantism even existed . . . the Catholic Church’s history is littered with multiple martyr’s and saints who have lost their lives in fighting against heresies propagated by so called Catholics within the Catholic Church . . . and such unholy activities continue on to this day . . .

Many beloved non-Catholic children of **God **live holy **Godly **prayerfilled lives very close to God . . . utterly faithful to the Lord . . . to the very best and depth of their ability . . . in accordance with Sacred :bible1: Scripture and the spiritual light which they have been given . . . *however advanced or limited . . .

*Heresy was recorded in Sacred :bible1: Scripture as being prevelant even in the first century as recorded below by. . . **Saint John the Beloved **. . . one of the original Apostles of our **Lord Jesus Christ ** . . .

**. . . :coffeeread: . . . **

THE HOLY :bible1: BIBLE​

Revelations 2:11-17 & 2:18-29

The Church of Pergamus . . . [11] He, that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: He that shall overcome, shall not be hurt by the second death. [12] And to the angel of the Church of Pergamus write: These things, saith he, that hath the sharp two edged sword: [13] I ****know where thou dwellest, where the seat of Satan is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith. Even in those days when Antipas was my faithful witness, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. [14] But I have against thee a few things: because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat, and to commit fornication: [15] So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaites.

[16] In like manner do penance: if not, I will come to thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. [17] He, that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: To him that overcometh, **I **will give the hidden manna, and will give him a white counter, and in the counter, a new name written, which no man knoweth, but he that receiveth it.

**The Church of Thyatira . . . **

[18] And to the angel of the Church of Thyatira write: These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like to a flame of fire, and his feet like to fine brass. [19] I know thy works, and thy faith, and thy charity, and thy ministry, and thy patience, and thy last works which are more than the former. [20] But I have against thee a few things:** because thou sufferest the woman Jezabel, who calleth herself a prophetess, to teach, and to seduce my servants, to commit fornication, and to eat of things sacrificed to idols**.

[21] And I gave her a time that she might do penance, and she will not repent of her fornication. [22] Behold, **I **will cast her into a bed: and they that commit adultery with her shall be in very great tribulation, except they do penance from their deeds. [23] And **I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and hearts, and I will give to every one of you according to your works. But to you I say, [24] And to the rest who are at Thyatira: Whosoever have not this doctrine, and who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will not put upon you any other burden. [25] Yet that, which you have, hold fast till I **come.

[26] And he that shall overcome, and keep my works unto the end,** I** will give him power over the nations. [27] And he shall rule them with a rod of iron, and as the vessel of a potter they shall be broken, [28] As** I **also have received of my Father: and I will give him the morning star. [29] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the **Spirit **saith to the churches.​

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . thank You Divine Spirit of our Holy God+​

 

[mackbrislawn]

Catholics and Orthodox are often accused by Protestants of altering Christianity and becoming heretical. Yet since the time of the reformation Catholics and Orthodox have remained the same in their theology which gives credence to their belief that they have never changed and are loyal to the first century Church.

Protestants, on the other hand, have never stopped changing. It is safe to assume the reformers would view all modern day Protestants as heretics. Even the Lutherans and Protestants have not remained loyal to Luther and Calvin. The King James Bible, beloved by so many Protestants, originally contained the Deuterocanonical books, and they were considered inspired scripture. It even seems that the Church of England has fulfilled Aldous Huxley’s prophesy that one day the Archbishop of Canterbury would become Arch-Community Songster making the sign of the T instead of the sign of the cross.

Protestantism has proven that it is a recipe for theological change. Catholicism and Orthodoxy have proven immune to changes of theology.

Yes, as many of the posters here have commented, there are many fine and Godly Protestants. They have many good points to be admired.

But I don’t think that is the OP’s point. The point is about the very spirit of the Reformation, of Protestantism, that of reform, of protest against the ambient conditions and religion. It is a reform that doesn’t know when to stop. Of course many groups stopped along the way, some only a short distance from Catholicism, such as the Lutherans and Anglicans. They retained many beliefs and appearances of Catholicism. They rejected primarily those things they considered to be contrary to scripture.

The Reformed tradition, including the Pilgrims and Puritans, Presbyterians, went another step, in removing, or purifying, the outward trappings. Plus, Calvin took the premises of Luther and took them even further, further than Luther realized they could go.

Then the Anabaptists went even further, “Why, you Lutherans and Reformed still baptize babies!” “You’re still half-Catholic!”

The Unitarians and Jehovah’s Witnesses say, “Why, you Baptists still believe in the Trinity!” “You’re still part of Christendom!”

Many say that if they don’t find it in scripture, they don’t believe it at all.

You can see the process of reductionism, of paring down and removing beliefs and practices that basically are dependent on Catholic tradition. As the generations and centuries move on, more and more things are realized to be in reality dependent upon Catholic tradition.

Eventually, it is realized that belief in the Bible and its inspiration are themselves merely Catholic traditions, and, keeping with rejecting Catholic traditions, many modern liberals begin to question scripture. Which parts are true, and which fable and myth? Did Jesus really do these things? Did he really work miracles? Was he really resurrected or was it just a “faith event”?

A book written by Protestant Murray J Harris questions the physical resurrection. And who is to refute him? He is just as entitled to his beliefs and to spread them as anyone else. Just because he teaches things that aren’t in accord with beliefs hoary with age is not a reason to reject them!

Fundamentalism arose as a reaction against the modern liberal disbeliefs, and so they published a list of ‘Fundamentals.’ But theirs is a rear guard action, it is just their opinion, not in any way authoritative.

So, if it by their fruits that we know them, the fruits of the Reformation movement are ultimate disbelief in scripture and an increasingly secular society.

 

[Alix1912]

Protestants aren’t stupid, but they are misled. Sometimes we on the Catholic side might be arrogant in our way of stating that. The Church at the time of the Revolution was corrupt in its administration, but it got reform at Trent. The real difference that set Luther and Calvin apart from others was their reforming (or rather, deforming) of Church theology. That’s what I have a problem with. When they split with the Church their theology led scores of people away into doctrinal confusion and endless schism. Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide make war on the Church and the faith. It is doctrines I have a problem with. Hopefully myself and others can be better in our assertion of that.

We don;t consider ourselves misled. Also the council of Trent would NEVER have happened without Luther and Calcin. If no one had protested or the church had succeeded in killing Luther it would have continued on in it’s corrput form much, much longer. I will agree that many newer churches have completely twisted the meanings od Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide into Bible Only, and “once Saved”. However many synods of the Lutheran Faith still hoold true to our roots. Not to mention constantly telling people you are misled, silly, foolish, uninformed drives them away.

 

[Hail_Linus]

I am going to try again. I will take the blame for perhaps stating the original question in an offensive way. You can rest assured that I do not hate Protestants nor do I think they are stupid so please try to stick to the topic.

In the early 20th century, the Progressive movement began to infiltrate Christianity. It has affected the lay people as well as the clergy. This goes for Catholicism too.

However, the difference is the Catholic Church (I am including the Orthodox here) has safeguards that prevent the progressives from altering our Church doctrine.

For example, consider contraception. There was a time when all Christians believed it was immoral. Little by little it progressed and eventually became acceptable to most protestant Churches.

Yes, there are Catholic lay people as well as clergy that are pro-contraception. However, it has not changed in the official Church teaching for the simple fact that the Church does not have the authority to change this teaching. Even the Pope has no authority to change this.

We can also look at the ordination of Women Priests. The Anglican church now permits the ordination of women priests. It is true that many Catholics keep arguing in favor of permitting the ordination of women priests but they are wasting their time. The Catholic Church does not have the authority to change this teaching. Even the Pope has no authority to change this.

 

[Publisher]

Since most Protestant organizations have roots in the Catholic church…does that prove Catholicism always leads to heresy?

 

[Alix1912]

Since most Protestant organizations have roots in the Catholic church…does that prove Catholicism always leads to heresy?

Interesting thought. Probably not real popular here though.

I think one could say that corruption, secularism, and attempting to make things more “relevant” leads to heresy…regardless of denomination.