Hassidic Orthodox Israelis to 'rebuild' a Temple?

[Eric_Faith]

May Our Eternal Father abundantly bless anyone who might read this. Is there a place here on the forum where there is any discussion about the attempts made by well-meaning Hassidic Orthodox Israelis to ‘rebuild’ a Temple? I have seen two different movements in the media. One wants to rebuild something that reflects the dynasty of King Solomon and David, and the other, the Herodian dynasty being the Temple Institute. I do understand the controversies that are involved, but as someone who has applied my own suffering through lonliness and frustration for the sake of Our Lord’s people of what I wish to the Eternal Father can continue to be a life-providing Holy Land for everyone, I feel compelled to seek out information about people from there. I do have a a buisness card from a gentleman whose name I will not post here that had something to do with a co. named Bethlehem crafts. I wonder if any of these artists are still working on things there. Could someone help with this, and may the eternally true PAX of Yahweh be in the midst of our brothers and sisters of the Holy Land that I have so often wept for alone and in silence.

 

[Dale_M]

Eric, I am not sure if what you are interested in has been, or is being, discussed anywhere at CAF. However, you might want to start a thread in Non-Catholic Religions and see if anyone is interested.

Okay, back to the topic.
the OP article:

Gibbs reiterated, though, the right to Israel self-defense, and encouraged activists to go through appropriate channels in trying to deliver supplies to Palestinians.

Well, I don’t think there is anything too surprising in the White House announcement. Israel was taking a lot of heat for excluding amenities of life which were unrelated to military threats. And by extension, the US was catching some grief for supporting Isreal’s blockade. So the decision to relax the blockade (in a manner yet to be seen) takes pressure of the US, as well as Israel.

Of course, the US will continue to support Israel’s blockade of materials which could be put to military use.

 

[Eric_Faith]

If only those wonderful people of Our Faith could truly love each other to the fullest in our contemporary times. As it is most places in life, we seem to find so much of a mixture of good and bad things happening. I am the kind of person that believes that both sides in any conflict have a right to defend themselves to the best of their ability. I thank God for both Israelis and Palestinians who defend the Christians of the Holy Land whoever they may be. One of the reasons I wanted to have this thread is so we could possibly get some history about the Roman Emperor who was known as Julian the Apostate. It seems that there was an event that happened when this Caesar, who was fascinated with the ancient Hebrew culture, tried to help rebuilding efforts after the sorrow that was 78 AD. I have read that there was an earthquake that happened back then, and I wanted to make sure that my study of history was correct. I truly love the people of the Holy Land and in my own prayers offer my own personal sorrow for their sake, which is the sake of Our Lord as well. I just don’t want history to repeat itself in this way. Why, when I think of Jerusalem am I always brought to tears? I wish there was hope for what they dream of and that God could help them cultivate the once ancient Eden into something that reminds us of the very beginning…may any sorrow that you may have in your own life be offered for their people and ours. Please tell me no one really wants another regional conflict like the last century…I just want hope…

 

[anns82]

From what I understand, the idea of rebuilding a temple is mixed among the Jewish people. Part of this is because if the temple was rebuilt, they would have to start conducting animal sacrifices again, and many are not very fond of that idea for various reasons.

Another reason is because the only way they can rebuild would be if it were on the same site, which is the site on which the Dome of the Rock stands, so they would have to destroy the 3rd most holiest site in the Muslim faith in order to rebuild. I doubt this would go over smoothly. The Israeli authorities are currently conducting excavations under the Dome of the Rock, which leads to the conspiracy theory that the Jewish people are wanting to destroy the DotR from beneath in order to rebuild.

I could be wrong, but I think Israel by large is more secular than devoutly religious, so I do not think that the support to rebuild is there. I was there in 2005 and 2006, so I am basing this on my experiences and my limited research, so I admit there may be things on which I may be wrong.

 

[Hesychios]

I say if they want a temple, they should go and build one somewhere.

But not on the old temple mount, that would be crazy.

 

[Hesychios]

One of the reasons I wanted to have this thread is so we could possibly get some history about the Roman Emperor who was known as Julian the Apostate. It seems that there was an event that happened when this Caesar, who was fascinated with the ancient Hebrew culture, tried to help rebuilding efforts after the sorrow that was 78 AD. I have read that there was an earthquake that happened back then, and I wanted to make sure that my study of history was correct. …

Well, Julian the Apostate was raised as a Christian but abandoned that in favor of paganism. He was very militant in this and tried to restore paganism by basing it on neo-Platonic philosophy and making it more “churchlike” (for lack of a better term), it could then be a unifying factor in the empire replacing Christianity in that role.

I suppose that if he was intractably hostile to Christianity, he might have wanted to restore the fortunes of the Jewish community and their temple (the first I have heard of it) as another way of weakening orthodox Christianity, but I would guess (I don’t really know) that he would have been more interested in building a new pagan temple on the site. I would not think that he had the best interests of the Jews at heart in any case.

His reign only lasted three years, so he didn’t have much time to implement his programs before he was killed.

 

[anns82]

I say if they want a temple, they should go and build one somewhere.

But not on the old temple mount, that would be crazy.

Can they though? The temple mount is the where God told the Jewish people to build a temple. Unless God gives them a new location, I don’t know if they have the “authority” to build it somewhere else.

 

[Hesychios]

Can they though? The temple mount is the where God told the Jewish people to build a temple. Unless God gives them a new location, I don’t know if they have the “authority” to build it somewhere else.

That is theoretically correct, however they can always ‘develop’ their thinking on this point. The idea that there can only be one site for the temple was not always universally adhered to by the Jewish people.

For instance, after the destruction of the Jerusalem temple (in Jeremiah’s day) a new temple was built in Egypt of all places, on Elephantine, so one can be sure that there were priests from the Jerusalem temple relocated in upper Egypt at the time and a pragmatic decision was made to continue the sacrifices. It may have actually been the repository for the Ark. There are other suggestions of that kind of thinking in Jewish history. For one, the priesthood was exiled to Babylon for many years, when they first came back to Jerusalem and reopened the temple (on a much reduced scale) they somehow knew just what to do, even though the bulk of the information they would have needed (the ‘rubrics’) was not actually written. They probably were practicing the rites in Babylon in secret.

Qumron may have had a small temple, but probably not. I think that they refused to do the sacrificial rites.

All of this doesn’t even take into account the two Israel temples nor the multiple ancient Hebrew High Places which were pre-Davidic. Nor the fact that when the temple was a tent, it was all over the place, nor the fact that it was probably a political decision to pick Jerusalem not the wish of God.

And the idea of synagog (and many of them at that), as vital to Jewish history and survival as it has been, probably cannot be considered more suitable for worship than a temple in the same location.

Rhetorical question - What is better, to worship God properly in some alternative location, or to not worship God properly? (I personally don’t think the killing of small animals is proper worship of YHWH, and apparently many modern Jews would agree, but that is beside the point.)

They may be using this as an ultra-nationalist excuse to blow up the mosque, but it will turn out very badly if they actually try.

 

[anns82]

Rhetorical question - What is better, to worship God properly in some alternative location, or to not worship God properly? (I personally don’t think the killing of small animals is proper worship of YHWH, and apparently many modern Jews would agree, but that is beside the point.)

All very interesting to consider. I have to admit, as a Christian, it is pretty easy for me to say “Jesus said that the Temple would be destroyed, and the fullness of the Jewish faith is now lived through His Church” Plus, we have the Eucharist as the covenantal sacrifice, making the animal sacrifice unnecessary. But as you pointed out with your rhetorical question, the Jewish people do not have an easy answer option.

They may be using this as an ultra-nationalist excuse to blow up the mosque, but it will turn out very badly if they actually try.

I wonder the same thing, though I would like to see Jewish/Muslim responses to this question. How would a person of either faith personally react to the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple?

 

[CaptainPicard]

Good ol’ Wikipedia writes:

"A personal friend of his (Julian’s), Ammianus Marcellinus, wrote this about the effort:

’ Julian thought to rebuild at an extravagant expense the proud Temple once at Jerusalem, and committed this task to Alypius of Antioch. Alypius set vigorously to work, and was seconded by the governor of the province;* when fearful balls of fire, breaking out near the foundations, continued their attacks**, till the workmen, after repeated scorchings, could approach no more: and he gave up the attempt. *’"

It goes on to give a more secular-rationalistic interpretation of events:

“The failure to rebuild the Temple has been ascribed to the Galilee earthquake of 363, and to the Jews’ ambivalence about the project. Sabotage is a possibility, as is an accidental fire.”

 

[Hesychios]

Good ol’ Wikipedia writes:

"A personal friend of his (Julian’s), Ammianus Marcellinus, wrote this about the effort:

’ Julian thought to rebuild at an extravagant expense the proud Temple once at Jerusalem, and committed this task to Alypius of Antioch. Alypius set vigorously to work, and was seconded by the governor of the province;* when fearful balls of fire, breaking out near the foundations, continued their attacks***, till the workmen, after repeated scorchings, could approach no more: and he gave up the attempt. '"

It goes on to give a more secular-rationalistic interpretation of events:

“The failure to rebuild the Temple has been ascribed to the Galilee earthquake of 363, and to the Jews’ ambivalence about the project. Sabotage is a possibility, as is an accidental fire.”

It sounds a bit like gas, methane perhaps? Was the site accumulating refuse?

 

[Eric_Faith]

Thank you Hesychios and May Our Eternal Father, His Divine Son, and the Holy Spirit that makes Our Lord One bless you for such great insight! +F+S+HS+ Amen. I just hope that Our Lord is Merciful to His people there. The more I have heard of the conflict the past ten years, the more I have mourned for the love of where we all originated from. I like to see the television programming that lets us know here in America how much we share in common with both the Jewish and Palestinian Christians. I feel the same for those of the Jewish Faith and Muslim Faith as well. I wish with everything that I am as a person that there could be an end to all that ‘end times’ madness and how so many Non-Catholic and Non-Orthodox try to impose a hypothetic scenario upon the Apocalypse of John that just doesn’t serve the true Kingdom of Our Lord Jesus and His Eternal Father in a good way. So much of what is in Saint John’s work was intended for the time and place in which it was written and sadly, here in America, people have gone to ridiculous lengths to try and prove points that make all kinds of theories possible. I wonder what is the Vatican’s position on the reforming of a contemporary Jewish Sanhedrin? I just don’t want things to end up in heartache so I’ll just go pray for them. God bless you who keep this thread going! +F+S+HS+Amen.

 

[Hesychios]

… I feel compelled to seek out information about people from there. I do have a a buisness card from a gentleman whose name I will not post here that had something to do with a co. named Bethlehem crafts. I wonder if any of these artists are still working on things there.

I just noticed this part of your post.

There are a lot of crafts people making religious and decorative articles out of olive wood and other materials around Bethlehem. (Interesting article here)

It is legitimate, and the people need the cash. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the artists were Muslim, but it doesn’t matter, the community as a whole needs the work. I have bought some of these things before and I feel quite good about it.

The Christian community in Palestine is in very dire straights, they have all of the same problems the Muslims have, but they are considered a minority among their own people. We have to show an interest.

 

[GerardMajella]

I could be wrong, but I think Israel by large is more secular than devoutly religious, so I do not think that the support to rebuild is there.

Perhaps that was true in past decades. However, keep your eyes on the massive growth of the ultra-Orthodox “Haredi” Jewish community.

It is not uncommon for a typical ultra-Orthodox Jewish family in Israel to have 8-10 kids or more. Their population is exploding, and will continue to do so over the next couple of decades. The secular Jews will be far outnumbered in the years ahead, based on birth rates alone.

Their numbers are already having political consequences. From what I understand, Netanyahu would not have been elected had he not catered to the ultra-Orthodox community during his election.

It is entirely possible, that with the massive growth of the Haredi population, that we will see a strong push for the rebuilding of the Temple in our lifetime. It’s an exciting time to be alive.

 

[Hesychios]

… It’s an exciting time to be alive.

An old Chinese proverb says:

“It’s better to be a dog in a peaceful time than be a man in a chaotic period”

 

[Eric_Faith]

Thanks Hesychios, especially about the people who work in Bethlehem. Are things there beginning to get better as a few years back it seemed so extremely militarized. I am of the mindset that I compelled to pray for everyone but espescially those who believe in self-defense and God forbid anyone, by either a will turned to do no good or even by accident, cause an offense that was never meant to happen. I am glad to hear that there are still buisness and craftsmen there. My Mom here in the US was able to purchase some objects, like a Rosary and a few crosses from a gentleman that was travelling from Bethlehem. As for the ultra-Orthodox known as the Haredi, would these be people like those of the Temple Institute of Jerusalem? Even if they cannot understand Orthodox or Catholic theology, they do seem rather kind and sincere and to be honest, that Institute has some of the most beautiful artwork that I have ever seen that details the history of the Jewish/Ancient Hebraic people. As for Muslims, I also have a appreciation for their very important part in Sacred History especially the story of Hagar and Ishmael and how the holy angel cared for them when sadly, familial relationships could not be continued at that time. It is amazing and wonderful to see all of the good that is there in the Holy Land. I can only hope that we all can focus more on this than the bad. One of my favorite paintings is by James Tissot, and the subject being specifically Hagar and the angel. May God continue to bless this kindly conversation and may your friends and family be abundantly blessed too for anyone reading, +F+S+HS+Amen.