Have Dads been wimpy- fied?

[thewanderer]

There simply was no personal attack on JPII. Sheeeeeeeeeeesh. Re- read the post in question. Please.

He called himself a feminist. You are saying it is wrong to use the word feminist. You are claiming the Pope was wrong to do so and not behaving as a good Catholic should in doing so.

 

[Nimzovik]

You really think I was intending to refer to the Pope as not being a good Catholic for using the word ‘Feminist’ eh? Methinks that is just a weee bit of a stretch, eh?

Ok. I accept that as your perspective.

I reiterate. I feel it is senseless to continue on this particularized matter.

That said, I do indeed, IMHO, assert it to be advisable to insert Catholic instead of Feminist for all the reason I have delineated in above postings.

Let’s move forward, shall we?

 

[Kamaduck]

This comment was deleted by Kamaduck.

I was really angry when I posted this, and I think it might have been counter-productive.

I’m going to try to sum up my thoughts again later, with a bit less emotion.

 

[Kamaduck]

Nimzovik Responds

Ok here is the definition of “Male Shaming” via the Urban Dictionary.

urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Feminist%20Shaming%20Tactics

Here are some stellar examples:

‘Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometimes gain from the experience.’
— Catherine Comins, Vassar College,
Assistant Dean of Student Life in Time, June 3, 1991, p. 52

“If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males.” –Mary Daly, former Professor at Boston College, 2001.

“All men are rapists and that’s all they are” --** Marilyn French, Authoress; (later, advisoress to Al Gore’s Presidential Campaign.)**

Note the Democrat connection in the above quote!!

“I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them.”** – Robin Morgan, Ms. Magazine Editor.**

Have I made my point yet? I have many, many more.

Alright, let’s see if I can play nicely this time.

Firstly: I’m sorry that “feminists” said these things. I know what it’s like to be dismissed and even hated because of your gender. Many (myself included) would say that this experience is still more common for women than for men. However, that means I know what it feels like, and it feels awful.

Secondly: These comments are a lot like the comment I deleted- counter-productive over-reactions to being hurt, again and again, by the patriarchy. (It’s OK if you don’t believe in patriarchy right now- just substitute “male people”; technically it’s not the same thing, but at least it works grammatically.) When you are hurt, again and again, it is not human nature to continue taking hits without striking back. It’s still wrong to strike back this way, but it’s not like they’re attacking men for the fun of it.

Thirdly: If you are honestly afraid that you will be falsely accused of rape, don’t worry. While one in four women is sexually assaulted at some point, the number of men falsely accused of being rapists is minuscule (and no, these generalized comments about ‘all men’ do not count). In fact, the number of people who are falsely accused of being rapists is about the same, proportionally, as those falsely accused of other crimes. However, please note that many incidences of rape and sexual assault go unreported. For every one man who is falsely accused of rape, there are probably well over 100 actual rapists who walk free. (I’ll find sources later, if you want.)

Fourthly: Attacking feminists will do you no good. I really, honestly believe that. These women are lashing out against a system that has marginalized their group. If you lash out in return, you will only look childish -and the same goes for me, if I in turn lash out at you! No, as Catholics we must be willing to listen to people and behave charitably, not attack whole groups for the actions of a few.

If you want to say “Catholic” instead of “feminist”, I’m OK with that. I think it’s a grand idea, actually. But if you want to do away with feminism, you must, must, must be willing to respect women and their voices. I don’t mean “oh, I open doors for women, and I don’t call them names”. No, real respect involves treating people as fellow humans, with brains in their skulls and souls made in the image and likeness of God. That means that if they have a complaint, you can’t just dismiss it! If you really want “Catholic” to be the new “feminist”- if you want just plain “Catholic” to mean the same thing that “orthodox Catholic feminist” does now, then you have to make sure that your Catholicism incorporates respecting women and oppressed groups! (Hint: men as a group are not actually oppressed. I’m sorry, but that’s the cold, hard truth of it. Men are hurt by gendered expectations just like women, but women are hurt more.)

Fifthly: I was really mad when I first read your post. I was mad because I saw you as equating a few angry comments with all of the societal forces that still work against women. I was mad because I saw you as equating these attacks on men with the million-something attacks on women I’ve seen in my short lifetime. But really, there was no need for that. These comments were uncalled for and probably harmful. Our current portrayals of fatherhood are harmful. I don’t think women lose anything by acknowledging that. In return, you have a responsibility to take it seriously when women raise similar concerns about hurtful comments (such as jokes about rape, weight shaming, sexual harassment, and other disrespectful things).

I’m not mad anymore. I don’t think you know as much about feminism as I do, and that’s to be expected. I probably don’t know as much about the different ways men are discriminated against as you do.

I apologize if anybody read my previous post, and I hope I’ve expressed my thoughts better in this one. There is more I could say about all this, but for now, I will refrain.

 

[Nimzovik]

Alright, let’s see if I can play nicely this time.

Firstly: I’m sorry that “feminists” said these things. I know what it’s like to be dismissed and even hated because of your gender.** 1)Many (myself included) would say that this experience is still more common for women than for men. However, that means I know what it feels like, and it feels awful. **

Secondly: These comments are a lot like the comment I deleted- counter-productive over-reactions to being hurt, again and again, by the patriarchy.2)(It’s OK if you don’t believe in patriarchy right now- just substitute “male people”; technically it’s not the same thing, but at least it works grammatically.) When you are hurt, again and again, it is not human nature to continue taking hits without striking back. It’s still wrong to strike back this way, but it’s not like they’re attacking men for the fun of it.

Thirdly: If you are honestly afraid that you will be falsely accused of rape, don’t worry. While one in four women is sexually assaulted at some point, the number of men falsely accused of being rapists is minuscule (and no, these generalized comments about ‘all men’ do not count). In fact, the number of people who are falsely accused of being rapists is about the same, proportionally, as those falsely accused of other crimes.** 3) However, please note that many incidences of rape and sexual assault go unreported. For every one man who is falsely accused of rape, there are probably well over 100 actual rapists who walk free.** (I’ll find sources later, if you want.)

5)Fourthly: Attacking feminists will do you no good. I really, honestly believe that. These women are lashing out against a system that has marginalized their group.** 6) If you lash out in return, you will only look childish -and the same goes for me, if I in turn lash out at you!** No, as Catholics we must be willing to listen to people and behave charitably, not attack whole groups for the actions of a few.

If you want to say “Catholic” instead of “feminist”, I’m OK with that. I think it’s a grand idea, actually. But if you want to do away with feminism, you must, must, must be willing to respect women and their voices. I don’t mean “oh, I open doors for women, and I don’t call them names”. No, real respect involves treating people as fellow humans, with brains in their skulls and souls made in the image and likeness of God. That means that if they have a complaint, you can’t just dismiss it! If you really want “Catholic” to be the new “feminist”- if you want just plain “Catholic” to mean the same thing that “orthodox Catholic feminist” does now, then you have to make sure that your Catholicism incorporates respecting women and oppressed groups!7 (Hint: men as a group are not actually oppressed. I’m sorry, but that’s the cold, hard truth of it. Men are hurt by gendered expectations just like women, but women are hurt more.)

Fifthly: I was really mad when I first read your post. I was mad because I saw you as equating a few angry comments with all of the societal forces that still work against women.** 8) I was mad because I saw you as equating these attacks on men with the million-something attacks on women I’ve seen in my short lifetime.** But really, there was no need for that. These comments were uncalled for and probably harmful. Our current portrayals of fatherhood are harmful. I don’t think women lose anything by acknowledging that. In return, you have a responsibility to take it seriously when women raise similar concerns about hurtful comments (such as jokes about rape, weight shaming, sexual harassment, and other disrespectful things).

I’m not mad anymore**.9**)** I don’t think you know as much about feminism as I do**, and that’s to be expected. I probably don’t know as much about the different ways men are discriminated against as you do.

I apologize if anybody read my previous post, and I hope I’ve expressed my thoughts better in this one. There is more I could say about all this, but for now, I will refrain.

Nimzovik Responds: Bolding Mine, Numerals Mine

There is just so much to address in regard to the above post I almost do not even know which to address first.

First let me preface my statements. I have said in this thread that I acknowledge Womens’s issues. I would be one of the first in line to assist combatting any wrongs perpetrated on a woman. As I said this thread is about Men’s issues, in specific Dads. I do not want to play the ‘who has got it worse.’ game.

I am*** quite*** disturbed, howeve,r that when men’s issues are brought up the knee jerk reaction of the general public is that somehow the topic gets turned into womens issues. Far too often the topic is met with complete denial of the existence of Men having any right what so ever of having any issues!

Now to some specifics:

1)Many (myself included) would say that this experience is still more common for women than for men.

Indeed?Yes I can see why that would be your first association response. I would challenge you to give the subject much more consideration. Visit some Men’s Right’s sites and you might just learn material to the contrary. I might even be argued that 50% of the population would disagree with you!

 

[Nimzovik]

Sorry for the double posting but my response was too long

2).2)(It’s OK if you don’t believe in patriarchy right now- just substitute “male people”; technically it’s not the same thing, but at least it works grammatically

UGH! Seriously!!?? You seriously employ the term ‘The Patriarchy’ and expect me to listen to you? Worse!! You equate it to** all** “male people!!” This is one of the issues men need to address right now!

Ok. First the term in question ‘Male Patriarchy’ propagated no doubt by Feminists and gender studies classes, is a term that simply inspires and induces stereotypical thinking (like you just did in your post) regarding to all males. Next, the term is often waved about like a weapon also induces rather extremely negative connotations of men. Did women have issues from the present all the way back to the stone age? You betcha! News Flash! Men did too! Men were treated like slaves well. Men were drafted( by** Queens** too) into wars! Why? To protect their women! This is one issue that gave the birth to the term ‘The Disposable Male.’ The issues of the past were predominately issues of the haves and the have nots. Men did not have the vote either unless they owned extensive property. Then there is the issue of the Matriarchy. I*** assure*** you I can address seeral issues that favor women in todays society that are just as heinous for men as women’s issues. Things like prison sentencing, paternity fraud, male genital mutilation via circumcision (no there is** no** reasonable medical purpose to this procedure.) etc. etc.

 

[Nimzovik]

More:

** 3) However, please note that many incidences of rape and sexual assault go unreported. For every one man who is falsely accused of rape, there are probably well over 100 actual rapists who walk free.**

Indeed? I find it fascinating that only now the profile of the Female pedophile is just emerging. Having worked in the Psych. Field extensively I can not even begin to tell you of the damage caused by mothers (and ever so many others) that sexualize and molest their male children. For a horrific example look up the mass murderer Anders Brevik. Note as well! Rape is not often done forgratification so much as it is done out of Mother Hatred or similar issues. Granted there are those in college that use the ‘Date rape drug’ and I am not talking about those. Rape is indeed a horrific issue. However we as a society must address all the components to fix this ill.
Note as well. Just how many males that are molested report that? Who would believe him?

 

[EasterJoy]

You really think I was intending to refer to the Pope as not being a good Catholic for using the word ‘Feminist’ eh? Methinks that is just a weee bit of a stretch, eh?

Ok. I accept that as your perspective.

I reiterate. I feel it is senseless to continue on this particularized matter.

That said, I do indeed, IMHO, assert it to be advisable to insert Catholic instead of Feminist for all the reason I have delineated in above postings.

Let’s move forward, shall we?

I did not mean to say you were implying he was a bad Catholic or a bad Pope. I meant to say you seem to be attacking him for using the word “feminist”. He chose it for a reason, which I believe was to make the point that he’s not only not going to abdicate in the face of accusations that he doesn’t defend women, but that he was going to very decidedly come out in favor of that defense to which women are actually entitled by justice. What he went on to do was to articulate what justice did and did not dictate when it came to the roles of women in the world. This is the position that the Church hierarchy has chosen with regards to that word.

I am saying that when you say “Catholic instead of feminist”, I believe you are setting up a false dichotomy–that is, saying that that two are in opposition–and allowing others to create the impression that there are some kinds of justice the Church opposes.

Many Catholic women are trying to re-claim that word from false feminists who are selling a false bill of goods to the world.

 

[Nimzovik]

5)Fourthly: Attacking feminists will do you no good. I really, honestly believe that. These women are lashing out against a system that has marginalized their group.** 6) If you lash out in return, you will only look childish -and the same goes for me, if I in turn lash out at you!** No, as Catholics we must be willing to listen to people and behave charitably, not attack whole groups for the actions of a few.

50 Oh yes? I assert that issue of Feminists must be addressed. The reasons are almost too numerous to enumerate! Like Abortion! Like killing a Man’s baby without his even being able to voice his concern! Then there is the blatant anti male propaganda! Believe me I could give you soooooooooo many points on this one. Like this:

. “Marriage has existed for the benefit of men; and has been a legally sanctioned method of control over women… We must work to destroy it. The end of the institution of marriage is a necessary condition for the liberation of women. Therefore it is important for us to encourage women to leave their husbands and not to live individually with men… All of history must be re-written in terms of oppression of women. We must go back to ancient female religions like witchcraft” (from “The Declaration of Feminism,” November, 1971).

Hmmmmmmmmmm I wonder… could* this* be the origin of the"** Evil Male Patriarchy" concept? **

and this

1. “Let’s forget about the mythical Jesus and look for encouragement, solace, and inspiration from real women… Two thousand years of patriarchal rule under the shadow of the cross ought to be enough to turn women toward the feminist ‘salvation’ of this world.” (Annie Laurie Gaylor, “Feminist Salvation,” The Humanist, p. 37, July/August 1988.

and this

From 'A feminist Dictionary; ed. Kramarae and Triechler, Pandora Press, 1985:

MALE:…represents a variant of or deviation from the category of female. The first males were mutants…the male sex represents a degeneration and deformity of the female.

MAN:…an obsolete life form… an ordinary creature who needs to be watched…a contradictory baby-man…

Please! Break it down for me and convince me as to just why I am not to combat this stuff?
And please! Do not NAFALT me, for the overwhelming vast bulk of Feminsm** is** definitely anti male.

Feminsts are* indeed* a male issue. Obviously.

Note: There is a vast difference between women and Feminists! Women are great!
Feminists? Meh! Not so much methinks!

I can address the other enumerated items later if needs be.
.

 

[Nimzovik]

I did not mean to say you were implying he was a bad Catholic or a bad Pope. I meant to say you seem to be attacking him for using the word “feminist”. He chose it for a reason, which I believe was to make the point that he’s not only not going to abdicate in the face of accusations that he doesn’t defend women, but that he was going to very decidedly come out in favor of that defense to which women are actually entitled by justice. What he went on to do was to articulate what justice did and did not dictate when it came to the roles of women in the world. This is the position that the Church hierarchy has chosen with regards to that word.

I am saying that when you say “Catholic instead of feminist”, I believe you are setting up a false dichotomy–that is, saying that that two are in opposition–and allowing others to create the impression that there are some kinds of justice the Church opposes.

Many Catholic women are trying to re-claim that word from false feminists who are selling a false bill of goods to the world.

I simply assert here regarding the ‘Pope’ Issue. You win!!! There! Now can we move on?

 

[EasterJoy]

Alright, let’s see if I can play nicely this time.

Firstly: I’m sorry that “feminists” said these things. I know what it’s like to be dismissed and even hated because of your gender. Many (myself included) would say that this experience is still more common for women than for men. However, that means I know what it feels like, and it feels awful. …

I have some quibbles with what you’re saying.

First: “The patriarchy” does not include a great many more men than women. By that I mean: most people in this world are not in on the power structure. The power in this world is concentrated in the hands of a relatively few people. Are more of them men than women? Yes. Is the gender imbalance the major issue? Not as I see it. The major problem is that the “great ones” of this world are mostly of the world, and do not conduct themselves according to the model of leadership provided by Christ, the model intended when God made the human race in his image and likeness. If Christ is not the true head, if Christ’s example is not the norm, then it doesn’t matter if you have a patriarchy or a matriarchy or any other kind of power structure. (In spite of what some seem to think, the world would be anything but a utopia if the men would get out of the way and let the women run everything!) If Christ were the model, then having a few people run things would not result in the kind of world we have.

Second, hoping that one will not be accused of a sexual assault is not a false fear. How many good priests out there who have never harmed a fly are afraid that someone is going to accuse them of sexually assaulting a child? Do you think that false accusations are a small thing? They are not that rare. It is no comfort whatsoever to someone who is falsely accused to know that the world is full of real sexual predators who are walking around free and respected. That is no comfort whatsoever! No, it is becoming a pretext for short-circuiting the rights of the accused, and that puts innocent people in danger, too.

The clarification I would like to put on what Nimzovik is saying is this: I don’t believe that men are under attack. I believe it is the masculine that is under attack and authority that is under attack and respect of those in positions of authority that is under attack, and there is a big difference. Men who are willing to accept a feminized culture don’t have a lot of problems. If they’re willing to live in a world where “to be civilized” means “to be in submission to a feminine sensibility”, then all but the most over-the-top feminists at the margins will be happy to crown them The New Man.

There was a time when a lot of wrong-doing was swept under the carpet with the excuse that “boys will be boys”. Now, though, the pendulum has swung. Now boys are never supposed to be boys, and men are not supposed to be men. The “cure” for “boys will be boys” has not been to attack the wrong-doing, but to try to make sure that men are trained not to be men and boys are trained not to be boys. We’ve let the women out of their girdles and corsets, but now the men are supposed to confine themselves to female behavior and female social rules. The effort is to achieve a false androgyny modeled mostly on the feminine. It won’t bring about peace in our times. It will instead cripple the masculine gifts needed to combat evil and protect the vulnerable, not to mention that it will absolutely destroy marriage. It really is a serious issue. My quibble with the OP is that I don’t think making men into victims is a correct diagnosis of the problem. The issue is letting the world be robbed of what the masculine brings to it, and the ridicule he is talking about is only a part of the effort to bring that about.

 

[EasterJoy]

I simply assert here regarding the ‘Pope’ Issue. You win!!! There! Now can we move on?

I will try to be better!

 

[PaleoConCatlick]

All men of the greatest generation and before would by default be “survivalists” by today’s standards.

Most men are not survivalist. Therefore only thugs who do what they want are seen as “tough” or “alpha males”.

They are idealized by the media.