Have I been Eastern Catholic all along?

[JMKC]

So, this is the story: My Catholic lineage goes through my mom’s mom (my dad and my mom’s dad aren’t Catholic). She would have been the rite of her father, based on canon law. Her dad’s parents were both immigrants from Ukraine. I’ve heard stories of my grandma going to a Ukrainian Catholic Church as a child. Now, I don’t know for certain, but I think it’s pretty safe to say that, being Ukrainian, my great-great grandparents would have been Ukrainian Catholic, in which case, my great-grandpa would be too, my grandma would be, my mom would be, and, consequently, I would be too.

Am I correct in my reasoning here?

 

[Ignatius]

So, this is the story: My Catholic lineage goes through my mom’s mom (my dad and my mom’s dad aren’t Catholic). She would have been the rite of her father, based on canon law. Her dad’s parents were both immigrants from Ukraine. I’ve heard stories of my grandma going to a Ukrainian Catholic Church as a child. Now, I don’t know for certain, but I think it’s pretty safe to say that, being Ukrainian, my great-great grandparents would have been Ukrainian Catholic, in which case, my great-grandpa would be too, my grandma would be, my mom would be, and, consequently, I would be too.

Am I correct in my reasoning here?

My understanding is that the child would be of the Sui Juris Catholic Church of the parents.

 

[JMKC]

So, assuming this applies if I go back down the line, then my grandma would be Ukrainian Rite without realizing it, and this would make my mom and myself Ukrainian too? The reason this is of importance is that I’m getting married in the Roman Rite. My fiancée is Eastern, so if I am Eastern too, we will both need permission (as far as I understand) from Eastern bishops (or more technically speaking, they would have to give faculties to our priest to bless our marriage, since we wouldn’t be under the priest’s care as Eastern Catholics).

 

[JMKC]

Okay, so new information has surfaced which says that my great-great grandparents came from Austria, though my great-great grandma spoke Ukrainian (amongst other languages), and they sold land they owned to a Ukrainian Catholic Church that was built there. So, there’s no definite information about which rite they were. In this case, would I just assume I’m Latin rite?

 

[Elizium23]

You would belong to the Church in which you were baptized. Therefore you can trust whatever it says on your baptismal certificate.

 

[edward_george]

You would belong to the Church in which you were baptized. Therefore you can trust whatever it says on your baptismal certificate.

Not necessarily. Canon law provides that you are ascribed to the sui iuris Church of your parents or, if they belong to different Churches sui iuris, to the whichever one they specify (it must be one to which one of them belongs), and should they not specify, the default is the Church of the Father. It doesn’t matter who does the baptizing or where it’s done. A Latin priest could baptize the child of Ukrainian parents, and the child would be a Ukrainian Catholic. A Latin priest could baptized the child of a Ukrainian father and a Latin mother, and if they didn’t specify, the child would be Ukrainian.

-ACEGC

 

[RyanBlack]

You would belong to the Church in which you were baptized. Therefore you can trust whatever it says on your baptismal certificate.

Canonical enrollment in not determined by the particular church in which the baptism occurs; it ia determined by the canonical enrollment of the father unless the father is not Catholic, in which case it is determined by the canonical enrollment of the mother.

 

[Elizium23]

Oh yes, you all are correct and I am wrong. I had a momentary lapse of reasoning there. Thank you.

 

[dans0622]

Okay, so new information has surfaced which says that my great-great grandparents came from Austria, though my great-great grandma spoke Ukrainian (amongst other languages), and they sold land they owned to a Ukrainian Catholic Church that was built there. So, there’s no definite information about which rite they were. In this case, would I just assume I’m Latin rite?

Hello,

What, then, can you state with certainty about the religious practice (baptismal status) of your ancestors, starting with your own parents and their parents?

Dan

 

[JMKC]

Hello,

What, then, can you state with certainty about the religious practice (baptismal status) of your ancestors, starting with your own parents and their parents?

Dan

I can state with certainty that my mother was baptized in a Roman Catholic Church, my grandma was as well (I think). Her father, my great grandpa is the first male relative in my line who was Catholic. I don’t know where he was baptized. And I know that his parents came from Austria, though I don’t know where their families are from. My great grandpa’s last name was not Austrian (looks Ukrainian), and given the stories about Ukrainian language and my grandma going to a Ukrainian Catholic Church, I am not sure what to assume. Basically, I’m wondering if I would default to Latin Rite since I’m not certain.

 

[dans0622]

I can state with certainty that my mother was baptized in a Roman Catholic Church, my grandma was as well (I think). Her father, my great grandpa is the first male relative in my line who was Catholic. I don’t know where he was baptized. And I know that his parents came from Austria, though I don’t know where their families are from. My great grandpa’s last name was not Austrian (looks Ukrainian), and given the stories about Ukrainian language and my grandma going to a Ukrainian Catholic Church, I am not sure what to assume. Basically, I’m wondering if I would default to Latin Rite since I’m not certain.

Hello,

It seems to me that you have no solid evidence which gives you good reason to conclude that any of your ancestors were Eastern Catholic. In my opinion, I would think that you are a member of the Latin Church. Most evidence suggests that.

Nevertheless, the best course of action would be to talk to your intended’s parish priest, or someone in her Church’s hierarchy, who can give a definitive answer as to how to go about making sure your marriage is valid. I suggest talking to someone in her Church, instead of the Latin, since they tend to be a bit more experienced in these questions of ascription. I will certainly admit that I have little experience in this area…

Dan

 

[5Loaves]

The reason this is of importance is that I’m getting married in the Roman Rite. My fiancée is Eastern, so if I am Eastern too, we will both need permission (as far as I understand) from Eastern bishops (or more technically speaking, they would have to give faculties to our priest to bless our marriage, since we wouldn’t be under the priest’s care as Eastern Catholics).

We cannot help you here with this. The priest with whom you are doing your pre-Cana needs to know your concern and he will forward that on to the chancery/tribunal where they will sort this out.

I’m sure you already know that since your fiancée is EC a Latin deacon may not do the rite, only a priest, for the marriage to be valid.

Your children may be baptized and chrismated in your wife’s Church sui iuris if you both consent to that. If you haven’t already considered this it would be something to talk about, pros and cons of that.

If the tribunal decides to treat you as a Latin Catholic you are free to transfer to your wife’s EC Church, under CIC 112 §2. As the commentary indicates for an EC only the wife has this option to change. In both cases the spouse can revert to their original Church sui iuris if the marriage ends, by death or divorce.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Okay, so new information has surfaced which says that my great-great grandparents came from Austria, though my great-great grandma spoke Ukrainian (amongst other languages), and they sold land they owned to a Ukrainian Catholic Church that was built there. So, there’s no definite information about which rite they were. In this case, would I just assume I’m Latin rite?

Austria used to include Galicia; if Ukrainian from the Austrian Empire they’d have almost certainly been UGCC.

 

[Vico]

So, this is the story: My Catholic lineage goes through my mom’s mom (my dad and my mom’s dad aren’t Catholic). She would have been the rite of her father, based on canon law. Her dad’s parents were both immigrants from Ukraine. I’ve heard stories of my grandma going to a Ukrainian Catholic Church as a child. Now, I don’t know for certain, but I think it’s pretty safe to say that, being Ukrainian, my great-great grandparents would have been Ukrainian Catholic, in which case, my great-grandpa would be too, my grandma would be, my mom would be, and, consequently, I would be too.

Am I correct in my reasoning here?

It depends on your baptism age and if the baptism was Catholic. If one is baptized Catholic at age 14 or later then the choice of Catholic Church sui iuris is open. If one is baptized Catholic younger than 14, then the Catholic parent(s) determines the Catholic Church sui iuris, in which case if only the mother is Catholic, it is that one. If the Catholic parent canonically transfers to a different Catholic Church sui iuris then there are some other rules to follow also.

If one is baptized non-Catholic there are other considerations.

 

[TheDoors]

I’m curious, why is this an issue? Do you wish to join an Eastern church?

 

[Elizium23]

So, assuming this applies if I go back down the line, then my grandma would be Ukrainian Rite without realizing it, and this would make my mom and myself Ukrainian too? The reason this is of importance is that I’m getting married in the Roman Rite. My fiancée is Eastern, so if I am Eastern too, we will both need permission (as far as I understand) from Eastern bishops (or more technically speaking, they would have to give faculties to our priest to bless our marriage, since we wouldn’t be under the priest’s care as Eastern Catholics).

 

[Defend_the_Keys]

Okay, so new information has surfaced which says that my great-great grandparents came from Austria, though my great-great grandma spoke Ukrainian ?

Until 1918, western Ukraine was part of Austria, so it is not uncommon at all for immigrants prior to WWI to have listed Austria as their country of origin even though they were coming from what we consider to be Ukraine today.

 

[CRM_Brother]

While one’s sacramental records are held at the parish of your baptism, if you are baptized in any of the Catholic Rites, Eastern or Western (and yes, there still are local western rights that are celebrated culturally), you are you do not become Eastern Rite or Western Rite Catholic, but rather just Catholic. Period. While it might be interesting to experience the rite your ancestors celebrated, the sacraments and communion with the Church is no different. For example, my religious order spans both the eastern and western rites (Roman Catholic and Syro-Malabar) but we all are the same brothers none-the-less. The only difference you may experience between the two rites may be differences in canon law (the law of the church) if you are baptized in one rite and married in another because the Eastern Catholic Church and the Western Catholic Church have different codes of Canon Law.

 

[babochka]

While one’s sacramental records are held at the parish of your baptism, i**f you are baptized in any of the Catholic Rites, Eastern or Western (and yes, there still are local western rights that are celebrated culturally), you are you do not become Eastern Rite or Western Rite Catholic, but rather just Catholic. **Period. While it might be interesting to experience the rite your ancestors celebrated, the sacraments and communion with the Church is no different. For example, my religious order spans both the eastern and western rites (Roman Catholic and Syro-Malabar) but we all are the same brothers none-the-less. The only difference you may experience between the two rites may be differences in canon law (the law of the church) if you are baptized in one rite and married in another because the Eastern Catholic Church and the Western Catholic Church have different codes of Canon Law.

This is untrue. Regardless of where you were baptized or which rite was used, you are canonically enrolled (automatically) in a particular church, be it the Latin Church, the Ukrainian Church, etc. If your father or your only Catholic parent is a member of a particular church, you become a member of that church, regarless of the rite used in your baptism. For example, I am Ruthenian Catholic and my husband is Latin Catholic. Three of my children have been baptized in the Ruthenian Church, two have been baptized in the Latin Church. They are all Latin Rite.

This is rarely an issue: it only becomes so in the case of Matrimony and Holy Orders, in which case it is necessary to determine the particular Church to which one actually belongs.

 

[SyroMalankara]

While one’s sacramental records are held at the parish of your baptism, if you are baptized in any of the Catholic Rites, Eastern or Western (and yes, there still are local western rights that are celebrated culturally), you are you do not become Eastern Rite or Western Rite Catholic, but rather just Catholic. Period. While it might be interesting to experience the rite your ancestors celebrated, the sacraments and communion with the Church is no different. For example, my religious order spans both the eastern and western rites (Roman Catholic and Syro-Malabar) but we all are the same brothers none-the-less. The only difference you may experience between the two rites may be differences in canon law (the law of the church) if you are baptized in one rite and married in another because the Eastern Catholic Church and the Western Catholic Church have different codes of Canon Law.

Brother,
It seems you have the actual Church’s teaching backwards. The Church teaches that one becomes a Catholic by virtue of their enrollment into one of the sui iuris Church’s via baptism. There is no such thing as “just Catholic”. One has to belong to one of the Churches (Syro-Malabar, Maronite, Latin) to claim to be any kind of Catholic.

I assume you are a member of the Syro-Malabar Church. This incorrect, theologically flawed view seems to have caught on in some Syro-Malabar circles with tragic results.