Have I been Eastern Catholic all along?

[Yuhannon]

Shlomo Dan,

What happened to you happened to me. I was baptized in the Roman Church. I further received both my First Communion and Confirmation in the Roman Church. It was not until I met a Ukrainian Catholic priest that I even found out about the Eastern Catholic Churches, and that it was 99% certain I was Eastern (Maronite) Catholic. Since both my grandmother and mother married Protestants. I am by default Maronite because my great grandparents where.

You have two options one is to change Churches which Eastern Catholic Eparchs try to forestall or enroll in the Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy you belong to and have the wedding in YOUR Church. I will tell you the Crowning ceremony is very beautiful.

If you are like me you will enjoy learning about your Church’s Holy Traditions.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

 

[JMKC]

Further information surfaced about my family. Though there is a seemingly Ukranian surname, my great-great grandfather actually immigrated from Romania. So though the last name suggests Ukranian origin, there is no hard evidence of him being Ukranian Catholic. My main concern was whether I can default to RC since I don’t have certainty, or whether I would have to contact the Ukranian Catholic Eparch to ask for a dispensation to be married by the RC priest who’s witnessing our marriage (as mentioned before, my fiancée is Eastern Catholic).

 

[malphono]

Considering that Romania borders western Ukraine, it’s distinctly possible that he was ethnic Ukrainian and that he (or his family before him) migrated to Romania for whatever reason. Perhaps it would be best to explain the situation to the Ukrainian bishop or his Vicar-General and see what he has to say. In any case, since the family seems to have had no connection to the Ukrainian Church for many years, it should not be a problem. I know of a recent case where a (non-practicing) Maronite man was quickly dispensed to marry a Latin Rite woman in her parish church with no Maronite presence whatsoever at the wedding.

 

[Vico]

So, this is the story: My Catholic lineage goes through my mom’s mom (my dad and my mom’s dad aren’t Catholic). She would have been the rite of her father, based on canon law. Her dad’s parents were both immigrants from Ukraine. I’ve heard stories of my grandma going to a Ukrainian Catholic Church as a child. Now, I don’t know for certain, but I think it’s pretty safe to say that, being Ukrainian, my great-great grandparents would have been Ukrainian Catholic, in which case, my great-grandpa would be too, my grandma would be, my mom would be, and, consequently, I would be too.

Am I correct in my reasoning here?

If the Catholic baptism occurred before the age of 14, then the Catholic father, mother, or guardian, will determine the original church of enrollment. Do you know when you were baptized?

 

[JMKC]

If the Catholic baptism occurred before the age of 14, then the Catholic father, mother, or guardian, will determine the original church of enrollment. Do you know when you were baptized?

I was baptized as an infant. My mom wouldn’t have been aware of the fact that we she might be Ukrainian Catholic (my dad isn’t Catholic, so I inherit my rite from my mother). So, she wouldn’t have chosen Latin Rite over Ukrainian since it would have been assumed that she was Latin and the question wouldn’t have had to be asked. My main concern now is whether I need permission to be married by a Latin priest (assuming I’m Ukrainian Catholic, based solely on my great-grandpa’s Ukrainian surname). The worst part is that if I am Ukrainian, my fiancée will likely not be able to get permission from her rite in time since they don’t have a bishop at the moment.

 

[Vico]

I was baptized as an infant. My mom wouldn’t have been aware of the fact that we she might be Ukrainian Catholic (my dad isn’t Catholic, so I inherit my rite from my mother). So, she wouldn’t have chosen Latin Rite over Ukrainian since it would have been assumed that she was Latin and the question wouldn’t have had to be asked. My main concern now is whether I need permission to be married by a Latin priest (assuming I’m Ukrainian Catholic, based solely on my great-grandpa’s Ukrainian surname). The worst part is that if I am Ukrainian, my fiancée will likely not be able to get permission from her rite in time since they don’t have a bishop at the moment.

You would need to establish the enrollment of your mother. The faithful change at the time of marriage to match the Catholic spouse, or by request at another time. Also in an inter-ritual church marriage the baptized infants can be enrolled in the sui iuris church of either Catholic parent by agreement. I think there was also variations that occurred before the current canon law. I think you could settle it by asking the Holy See to allow you to be enrolled in your* chosen *ritual Church.

 

[JMKC]

Considering that Romania borders western Ukraine, it’s distinctly possible that he was ethnic Ukrainian and that he (or his family before him) migrated to Romania for whatever reason. Perhaps it would be best to explain the situation to the Ukrainian bishop or his Vicar-General and see what he has to say. In any case, since the family seems to have had no connection to the Ukrainian Church for many years, it should not be a problem. I know of a recent case where a (non-practicing) Maronite man was quickly dispensed to marry a Latin Rite woman in her parish church with no Maronite presence whatsoever at the wedding.

It turns out that he was actually from a town that is currently in the Chernivtsi Oblast in Ukraine. It switched from Austria-Hungary to Romania before being part of Western Ukraine. I’ve been doing research to determine whether Ukrainian or Latin Catholicism was more predominate in this area (the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Lviv has been around since the 1400s) around 1915-1917 (likely the timeframe during which he emigrated). I did speak with the local Eparchy, but was encouraged to speak to the priest witnessing my marriage instead. He stated that we aren’t required to look that far back and that I am Latin Catholic. I’m still interested to find out more, however. And, to be honest, I can’t shake the worry that I might actually be Ukrainian Catholic and that my marriage will be invalid if the priest doesn’t have jurisdiction. Scruples are probably adding to the problem though.

 

[5Loaves]

I can’t shake the worry that I might actually be Ukrainian Catholic and that my marriage will be invalid if the priest doesn’t have jurisdiction. Scruples are probably adding to the problem though.

For a Ukrainian Catholic perhaps it could be illicit, but it would only be invalid if a Deacon was the one celebrating the wedding, since for an EC it would need a priest for the marriage ceremony to be valid, which doubtless you already know well.

 

[JMKC]

For a Ukrainian Catholic perhaps it could be illicit, but it would only be invalid if a Deacon was the one celebrating the wedding, since for an EC it would need a priest for the marriage ceremony to be valid, which doubtless you already know well.

If it is the case, however, that both my fiancée and I are both Eastern, it would also be invalid:

Can. 1109 Within the limits of their territory, the local Ordinary and the parish priest by virtue of their office validly assist at the marriages not only of their subjects, but also of non-subjects, provided one or other of the parties is of the latin rite. They cannot assist if by sentence or decree they have been excommunicated, placed under interdict or suspended from office, or been declared to be such.

I assume that validly assisting also refers to the validity of the marriage, since a Catholic needs to be married in the presence of a witness from the Church who has jurisdiction to do so.

 

[GM_2013]

I assume that validly assisting also refers to the validity of the marriage, since a Catholic needs to be married in the presence of a witness from the Church who has jurisdiction to do so.

Dear JMKC,

If you are really concerned about that (and you should be - it is the validity of your marriage in jeopardy), you should consider getting married at your fiancée’s parish. From what I read in your previous posts, you have no doubt about her being Eastern Catholic. In interritual marriages, for validity sake, you may marry in the presence of her priest, or in the presence of your priest. If you are not sure who is the priest who has jurisdictional power over you, why not go to her priest and get married over there? This way you would eliminate any doubts on validity.

This is exactly what happened to me. I’m Eastern, my wife is Latin. We got married at a Latin rite ceremony. This possibility is explained by no less than Bishop Dimitri Salachas, a great Canon Law expert specialized in Eastern Canon Law. He is also the head of the tiny Greek-Byzantine Catholic Church sui iuris in Greece and he worked for many years in the Congregation for Eastern Churches.

For a valid marriage in the presence of her parish priest, there is no need for any faculties or delegations from your pastor. Remember, this is an interritual marriage - there is no need for a double consent, just one consent coming from one pastor is enough. Again, that is exactly what happened to me, and I work with Canon Law. I would not let my own marriage become null because of this. Back then, I did my homework and I checked all the Canon Law books prior to the ceremony.

Even if you insist in getting married in the Latin rite, though you are afraid that you’re not Latin, you would have the benefit of doubt in your favor. Since it seems impossible to ascertain for sure whether you are Latin or not (but it seems that you indeed are Latin), this is one of the cases in which the Church would supply the jurisdiction that might be lacking (supplied jurisdiction). Let’s have a look at canons 144 and 1.111, §1 of the Code of Canon Law (1983):

Can. 144 §1. In factual or legal common error and in positive and probable doubt of law or of fact, the Church supplies executive power of governance for both the external and internal forum.
§2. The same norm is applied to the faculties mentioned in cann. 882, 883, 966, and 1111, §1.

Can. 1111 §1. As long as they hold office validly, the local ordinary and the pastor can delegate to priests and deacons the faculty, even a general one, of assisting at marriages within the limits of their territory.

Taking away the mention of deacons for your case (your wife-to-be is Eastern for sure, she must not be married by a deacon), can you see how these two canons (144 and 1.111) would work together to make your marriage valid, even though you do not know for sure if you are Latin? There is a probable doubt about the whole theme of your adscription to a certain Church sui iuris; the most probable possibility is that you are Latin, in which case you could get married in the Latin rite without delegation by the Eastern pastor. But even if you are not Latin, since you cannot know for sure what is your Church sui iuris, the Church would supply the lacking jurisdiction and you would be validly married.

My suggestion: either marry at her parish, with the presence of her pastor (or some other priest delegated by him), or marry at the Latin rite, having the firm belief that “Ecclesia supplet” (Church supplies the jurisdiction that maybe lacking). Do not worry about that so much, and enjoy the ceremony!

 

[GM_2013]

I assume that validly assisting also refers to the validity of the marriage, since a Catholic needs to be married in the presence of a witness from the Church who has jurisdiction to do so.

Just one more thing to make you feel comfortable about the situation if you choose to marry at her parish, since your marriage is going to be an interritual one. Have a look at the Instructions of the Congregation for the Eastern Churches below:

INSTRUCTIONS FOR APPLYING THE LITURGICAL PRESCRIPTIONS OF THE CODE OF CANONS OF THE EASTERN CHURCHES
Congregation for the Eastern Churches

“83. It is always necessary to take into account that, with the exception of the case in which the Hierarch or the parish priest are of another Church , with respect to the norm of can. 916 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, the celebration must occur, , according to the rites of the spouses, or of one of them if it is an inter-ritual marriage. Therefore, a celebration in another rite is illicit, but can be authorized by the Apostolic See on a case by case basis.”
(Official text in English available at vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/orientchurch/Istruzione/pdf/istruzione_inglese.pdf)

 

[JMKC]

Even if you insist in getting married in the Latin rite, though you are afraid that you’re not Latin, you would have the benefit of doubt in your favor. Since it seems impossible to ascertain for sure whether you are Latin or not (but it seems that you indeed are Latin), this is one of the cases in which the Church would supply the jurisdiction that might be lacking (supplied jurisdiction).

The problem is that we’re about two months away from the wedding which has been set at the Latin church, so there’s no going back now. The reason I have doubts about whether I’m Latin is because my great-great-grandfather was an ethnic Ukrainian who emigrated from present day Ukraine (I did more research and discovered this). To me, it seems unlikely that an ethnic Ukrainian would be anything other than Ukrainian Catholic (or Orthodox). If I understand correctly, the Roman Catholics in Ukraine were predominately Polish and Hungarian. I have no evidence though other than my assumptions. I’m going to contact a nearby Ukrainian church that could have records of my family if they ever went there, but it could be another dead end.

I would just like to ask my priest to request jurisdiction from the Eparchy, but without evidence, he might not want to. Also, from what I understand, one needs permission from the Apostolic See to licitly get married in a different church than the spouses belong to (in our case, [possibly] two Easterns getting married in a Latin church).

 

[GM_2013]

The problem is that we’re about two months away from the wedding which has been set at the Latin church, so there’s no going back now. The reason I have doubts about whether I’m Latin is because my great-great-grandfather was an ethnic Ukrainian who emigrated from present day Ukraine (I did more research and discovered this). To me, it seems unlikely that an ethnic Ukrainian would be anything other than Ukrainian Catholic (or Orthodox). If I understand correctly, the Roman Catholics in Ukraine were predominately Polish and Hungarian. I have no evidence though other than my assumptions. I’m going to contact a nearby Ukrainian church that could have records of my family if they ever went there, but it could be another dead end.

I would just like to ask my priest to request jurisdiction from the Eparchy, but without evidence, he might not want to. Also, from what I understand, one needs permission from the Apostolic See to licitly get married in a different church than the spouses belong to (in our case, [possibly] two Easterns getting married in a Latin church).

If the Ukrainian priest were collaborative, the best course of action to take would be exactly the one you just mentioned - ask for his delegation of faculties to the Latin rite priest. But since you have no substantive proof of your claim - that you are indeed Ukrainian Catholic (your great-great-grandfather could be Orthodox) -, I really doubt he will feel comfortable giving you this. So just believe in “Ecclesia supplet” (Church supplies) and everything will be fine. There is a positive, probable doubt involved, so it is a case of applying canon 144. Even if you find out later that you are indeed Ukrainian Catholic, the past act of the celebration of your marriage will be already valid because, at the time of the ceremony, the Church supplied the jurisdiction.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Even if the poster’s grandfather were Ukrainian Orthodox, wouldn’t anyone along his lineage that came into Catholicism automatically be Ukrainian Catholic, even if they were not aware?

 

[GM_2013]

Even if the poster’s grandfather were Ukrainian Orthodox, wouldn’t anyone along his lineage that came into Catholicism automatically be Ukrainian Catholic, even if they were not aware?

It depends on various factors - marriages with Latin rite Catholics and also if this Ukrainian Orthodox was in the male or female line. It is not that simple. You have to know personal data of everyone involved (great-great-grandfater, great-grandfather, grandfather, mother or father). Without this, you cannot say for sure.