Have I committed a mortal sin? On pro-abortion politicians

[Paxvobis]

Hello,

About two months ago, I read a document written by then-Cardinal Ratzinger about the worthiness of Catholics who vote for pro-abortion candidates to receive Holy Communion. Here it is.

The gist of the document is that Catholics cannot vote for a pro-abortion candidate when a pro-life candidate is available under pain of grave sin absent “equivalent reasons.”

I’m not old enough to vote, but I’m a Democrat from a family of Democrats, and so I dismissed this by rationalizing to myself “Well, most Republicans do support abortion in some circumstances, so they’re ‘pro-abortion’” and put it on the back burner, so to speak. But recently, I’ve been worried about it.

While I’ve been against abortion personally since my reversion, I’m now wondering whether my dismissal of this document was a mortal sin.

Thanks.

 

[ibo]

Hello,

About two months ago, I read a document written by then-Cardinal Ratzinger about the worthiness of Catholics who vote for pro-abortion candidates to receive Holy Communion. Here it is.

The gist of the document is that Catholics cannot vote for a pro-abortion candidate when a pro-life candidate is available under pain of grave sin absent “equivalent reasons.”

I’m not old enough to vote, but I’m a Democrat from a family of Democrats, and so I dismissed this by rationalizing to myself “Well, most Republicans do support abortion in some circumstances, so they’re ‘pro-abortion’” and put it on the back burner, so to speak. But recently, I’ve been worried about it.

While I’ve been against abortion personally since my reversion, I’m now wondering whether my dismissal of this document was a mortal sin.

Thanks.

As you said: there is not much choice, in these days. If on the other side you had a pro-life…

 

[Callum]

The last sentence reads

“When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.”

This seems to imply that it isn’t a mortal sin - provided that the reason you’re voting a particular way is because you agree with their social/fiscal policy or because they’re a worthy representative or something like that. Obviously voting for someone because they are pro-abortion would be very wrong.

Also, abortion isn’t the only issue to take into account - do you genuinely believe that the Democratic candidates you might vote for would be likely to improve the Christian virtue of your country?

Ultimately, however, by voting for someone you are actively giving consent to the positions and policies they will effect in power. The question is, of course, could you go along with these policies with a clear conscience?

 

[Saburo]

Suppose your Democrat candidate for the House of Reps is either anti-abortion, neutral on abortion, or is pro-abortion, but by some tortured logic you conclude he/she/it has other redeeming values. If your candidate were elected, would it contribute to enabling the Democrats to regain control of the House and Nancy Pelosi to regain control of the Speakership? If you contribute to that situation, you have directly supported abortion. You know the outcome of a Democrat controlled House from past behavior, and you choose your candidate without duress. I don’t see how it could be viewed as anything less than a mortal sin.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Suppose your Democrat candidate for the House of Reps is either anti-abortion, neutral on abortion, or is pro-abortion, but by some tortured logic you conclude he/she/it has other redeeming values. If your candidate were elected, would it contribute to enabling the Democrats to regain control of the House and Nancy Pelosi to regain control of the Speakership? If you contribute to that situation, you have directly supported abortion. You know the outcome of a Democrat controlled House from past behavior, and you choose your candidate without duress. I don’t see how it could be viewed as anything less than a mortal sin.

WOW!

OP, there are some really bad politicians on both sides of the issues. Voting, just like then Cardinal Ratzingers document. Has to be looked at in it’s entirety. If your concience tells you to vote a certain way. Thats how you should vote.

 

[jrgiancola]

In my church, the Orthodox Christian Church, abortion is not immoral when used to save the life of the mother. It IS a grave sin in all other circumstances. If the government bans all abortion, it denies me and other Orthodox Christians the choice our faith provides us. We have a First Amendment right to freely practice our religion, as does every other religion. I support candidates who try to accomplish what Jesus commanded us to do: Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the elderly, poor and widows, etc. Only the Democrats consistently enact legislation that achieves these commands of Jesus. The primary focus of the Orthodox Christian Church is to : Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself. All of its activities are geared to fulfill these two commandments.

 

[sw85]

Hello,

About two months ago, I read a document written by then-Cardinal Ratzinger about the worthiness of Catholics who vote for pro-abortion candidates to receive Holy Communion. Here it is.

The gist of the document is that Catholics cannot vote for a pro-abortion candidate when a pro-life candidate is available under pain of grave sin absent “equivalent reasons.”

I’m not old enough to vote, but I’m a Democrat from a family of Democrats, and so I dismissed this by rationalizing to myself “Well, most Republicans do support abortion in some circumstances, so they’re ‘pro-abortion’” and put it on the back burner, so to speak. But recently, I’ve been worried about it.

While I’ve been against abortion personally since my reversion, I’m now wondering whether my dismissal of this document was a mortal sin.

Thanks.

There’s certainly something to be said that voting for a pro-abortion candidate constitutes a grave sin viz. complicity in evil.

I suppose there are circumstances that can mitigate that sin. Personally, I don’t think the whole “Democrats like welfare Republicans don’t” argument is compelling. As I posted elsewhere:

With due respect to those saying the government could do more to prevent abortions (“more” of course being anything but the logical choice of prohibiting abortions)… what more can we do? Women in dire straits who have no family to turn to can always rely on charity and the Church, government welfare and food stamps, give their child up for adoption, etc. The exceptionally poor ones already qualify for Medicaid. At what point, in your judgment, has “enough” been done that you can stop holding an abortion ban hostage and just agree to pass it already?

I believe those who are complicit in evil, to any extent, will have to stand before God and explain themselves for it. Perhaps that will include standing before the victims of that evil and doing so. So if you think you can stand before the souls of a few million aborted children and explain “I tolerated your murder because I think poverty’s a greater evil,” by all means, do so.

Of course if you haven’t voted before then I don’t think you have any explaining to do. Personally, I don’t vote at all. Ours is a corrupt and degenerate government for a corrupt and degenerate nation. To vote would be to take communion with both and pollute my own soul. No thanks.

 

[Orogeny]

In my church, the Orthodox Christian Church, abortion is not immoral when used to save the life of the mother. It IS a grave sin in all other circumstances. If the government bans all abortion, it denies me and other Orthodox Christians the choice our faith provides us. We have a First Amendment right to freely practice our religion, as does every other religion.

You need to re-think what you wrote because it reads that you are claiming that abortion is a practice of your religion. It is not. It is allowed in very specific situations, but no others and is not part of your faith.

Peace

Tim

 

[jrgiancola]

There’s nothing to rethink. If the choice comes down to the life of the woman or the unborn child, my church grants the woman to choose her right to live. A total ban on abortion would not allow a physician to honor this request. A total ban on abortion would deny an Orthodox Christian woman the right to save her own life. No other religion has the right to impose that on a woman in my religion.

 

[Orogeny]

There’s nothing to rethink. If the choice comes down to the life of the woman or the unborn child, my church grants the woman to choose her right to live. A total ban on abortion would not allow a physician to honor this request. A total ban on abortion would deny an Orthodox Christian woman the right to save her own life. No other religion has the right to impose that on a woman in my religion.

So abortion is a practice of your faith?

Peace

Tim

 

[sw85]

There’s nothing to rethink. If the choice comes down to the life of the woman or the unborn child, my church grants the woman to choose her right to live. A total ban on abortion would not allow a physician to honor this request. A total ban on abortion would deny an Orthodox Christian woman the right to save her own life. No other religion has the right to impose that on a woman in my religion.

OK, we get it. You’re Orthodox now. You don’t need to mention it in every single post.

 

[Dan_Daly]

This seems to imply that it isn’t a mortal sin - provided that the reason you’re voting a particular way is because you agree with their social/fiscal policy or because they’re a worthy representative or something like that.

But the Church does not teach that social/fiscal policy is a proportionate issue.

If one Candidate was in favor of abortion, and the other was opposed to abortion, but in favor of kill born children between the ages of 2 and 3 years old, I think that would clearly be a proportionate issue. However, fiscal policy, welfare programs, the death penalty, etc, none of those are proportionate to abortion. Abortion is more heinous then even the murder of a born person, because it denies the unborn the opportunity for baptism.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

But the Church does not teach that social/fiscal policy is a proportionate issue.

If one Candidate was in favor of abortion, and the other was opposed to abortion, but in favor of kill born children between the ages of 2 and 3 years old, I think that would clearly be a proportionate issue. However, fiscal policy, welfare programs, the death penalty, etc, none of those are proportionate to abortion. Abortion is more heinous then even the murder of a born person, because it denies the unborn the opportunity for baptism.

You are entitled to hold this view as your prudential judgement on what is or is not a proportionate reason. But the Church does not explicitly define what is a proportionate reason. Faithful Catholics can disagree on that judgement. For example you may want to take into account your assessment of the probability of various outcomes. If you decide that voting for candidate A over candidate B is likely to have a 1% chance of improving abortion legislation, but a 95% chance of worsening some social justice situation, then you can take those probabilities into account when making your decision.

 

[jrgiancola]

I disagree again. I vote for the candidate who will do what is best for the country as a whole. No person is forced to have an abortion. Just because Lady A has an abortion every time she is pregnant because she is too lazy to use a condom does not justify my voting for a candidate who wants to ban abortion but also end Medicare, end Social Security, end Medicaid, end aid to education, end aid to local governments for police and fire departments, subsidize big oil companies when we know we have to go to renewable energy now, allow GE to make 14 billion in profit and pay not one cent of tax, end universal health care for Americans, etc. Why should the whole country pay for the actions of Lady A? Being Pro-choice is NOT pro-abortion. It means just what it says: the woman makes the decision, not the government or any one religion. My religion permits it in one circumstance; other religions permit it in other circumstances. Why should your religious beliefs be established as the law of the land? This is not what the founding fathers wanted. And how can you be pro-life if you want to end medicaid and medicare? Once the baby is forced to be born then it’s OK to abandon it? Needy young parents have to have Medicaid to get health care for the baby. Needy seniors must have Medicare or they will not receive health care. I know; I work with needy people, young and old. These programs are absolutely VITAL to their existence. Anyone who says he is pro-life but wants to end medicaid and medicare is a liar; he just wants to get someone’s vote.

 

[jrgiancola]

I’ve been writing here for a few years about abortion. Many of you have heard me state emphatically that i hate abortion but you do not seem to believe me because I am pro-choice.

Well, let me prove it to you.

In 2008 my daughter, who had an 8 month old child already, became pregnant again. She was very ill at that time, physically ill. The doctor’s felt she would not survive that pregnancy. I supported my entire family and her choice to have an abortion because I would not allow my daughter to die.

In 2007, my wife of 35 years passed away.

In January 2009, because of her passing and because of the abortion, I had a mental breakdown. It required hospitalizing my self and nearly a year of medication and counseling to recover from these two tragedies.

Thank God, I am well now.

But I know first hand the guilt and shame of abortion, of failing to protect my grandchild which I considered my family, not moral, duty.

I know abortion is a horror; I lived through it. And I still grieve for that grandchild that I allowed to be killed.

My daughter is healthy now and pregnant again with a little girl. We are so happy and excited because we DO love life. My prayer to God is always that He allows that soul, of the aborted child, to be born in this new child. I hope that is his will.

Just because I am pro-choice does NOT mean I approve of abortion. But I was unwilling to lose my daughter and leave my 8 month old grandson an orphan. I made a choice and I paid the consequences for it. But at that time, it WAS the right thing to do.

Unless you have a wife or a daughter, and have ACTUALLY HAD TO FACE THAT LIFE AND DEATH DECISION, then YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT IT AND YOUR OPINION IS SIMPLY IRRELEVANT.

Until you’ve been there, you have no right to judge because you do NOT know what you would do in such a situation. You know what you would WANT to do, but when it comes right down to the wire, you really do NOT know what you will do in a similar situation.

Incidently, I tell everyone that I am now an Orthodox Christian because I am so happy with my new church that I want to share my happiness with others. Sorry if that offends you. Abortion itself is not a practice of my new religion. The right to choose abortion to save the life of the mother is a practice of my religion. The Orthodox Christian Church hates abortion as much as the RCC. But, it considers that the mother also has a RIGHT TO LIFE, even more so if she has other children. I find that I believe that wholly.

 

[Orogeny]

I disagree again. I vote for the candidate who will do what is best for the country as a whole.

Wait, you were claiming it is a religious practice protected by the first amendment. Are you now changing your position?

No person is forced to have an abortion. Just because Lady A has an abortion every time she is pregnant because she is too lazy to use a condom does not justify my voting for a candidate who wants to ban abortion but also end Medicare, end Social Security, end Medicaid, end aid to education, end aid to local governments for police and fire departments, subsidize big oil companies when we know we have to go to renewable energy now, allow GE to make 14 billion in profit and pay not one cent of tax, end universal health care for Americans, etc.

Well, you clearly have your talking points down. Now, what person is damaged if all those things that you don’t want come to fruition if that person is killed by his/her mother before birth?

Being Pro-choice is NOT pro-abortion. It means just what it says: the woman makes the decision, not the government or any one religion.

Of course it is. That is just like saying I’m not pro-child molester, but it is really up to the molester to make the decision, not the government or any one religion.

My religion permits it in one circumstance; other religions permit it in other circumstances. Why should your religious beliefs be established as the law of the land? This is not what the founding fathers wanted.

Again, is this a religious argument or an historical argument? You lose both ways, because abortion is not a tenant of your faith and, if the founding fathers had wanted abortion to be legal, why didn’t they include it in the Constitution?

And how can you be pro-life if you want to end medicaid and medicare?

Those two programs are flawed and need to be replaced. A better program would serve the poor and the elderly better.

Once the baby is forced to be born then it’s OK to abandon it?

Forced to be born? WOW!!! EVERY BABY HAS THE RIGHT TO LIVE. PERIOD.

Anyone who says he is pro-life but wants to end medicaid and medicare is a liar; he just wants to get someone’s vote.

And anyone calling themselves pro-life who supports abortion rights is what???

Peace

Tim

 

[Orogeny]

In January 2009, because of her passing and because of the abortion, I had a mental breakdown. It required hospitalizing my self and nearly a year of medication and counseling to recover from these two tragedies.

Thank God, I am well now.

Amen.

Just because I am pro-choice does NOT mean I approve of abortion. But I was unwilling to lose my daughter and leave my 8 month old grandson an orphan. I made a choice and I paid the consequences for it. But at that time, it WAS the right thing to do.

Thank you for sharing your story. It is touching and I pray that your daughter has a beautiful, healthy child.

Unfortunately, your support for abortion rights means that millions of children, completely healthy children, will face the same end that your grandchild did. I understand and sympathise with your dilema, but that extemely small number of cases such as your daughter’s situation, doesn’t justify all the murder that pro-choice has lead to.

Unless you have a wife or a daughter, and have ACTUALLY HAD TO FACE THAT LIFE AND DEATH DECISION, then YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT IT AND YOUR OPINION IS SIMPLY IRRELEVANT.

Really? So no one who hasn’t participated in an abortion should be allowed to address the issue? Is your church unqualified to oppose abortion except when the life of the mother is at risk? Have any of the priests or patriarchs participated in abortions? Are they irrelevant in this discussion?

Until you’ve been there, you have no right to judge because you do NOT know what you would do in such a situation. You know what you would WANT to do, but when it comes right down to the wire, you really do NOT know what you will do in a similar situation.

I don’t have the right to judge because I am not God. However, I do have some guidance from Him through His Church. I base my position on that.

You are right, I don’t know what I would do.

Peace

Tim

 

[jrgiancola]

I wrote the last post in haste. I want to further discuss this is this addendum to that post.

It’s easy to be a bystander and preach a moral code to someone. But God often places us in difficult situations where our moral beliefs come into play. Such was the case involving my daughter in 2008.

I was placed into a situation where my daughter would literally die if she did not terminate her pregnancy. And, the doctors could not guarantee that the unborn child would even survive.

In this situation, God decreed that someone or both was going to die. And the decision was left to me, my daughter and my other children to decide what to do about it.

Most of you will never have to make a decision involving life and death, except your own. And I sincerely hope that none of you are ever placed into the position I was placed into.

You can preach your moral code to anyone who is willing to listen; but you might be very surprised at your actions if you ever actually have to make a life and death decision like I did, to decide who dies and who lives. You can hope and pray that you follow your moral beliefs; but that is no guarantee that you will not violate them.

In my whole life I have never intentionally hurt another person physically. In 2008, I had to decide whether to save my daughter’s life, or let her (and possibly the child) die.

After it was over, I went to confession and cried through the whole experience. The good priest absolved me. I knew God had forgiven me. But that was simply not enough for me.

All of my life I have worked hard, provided for and protected my family. This is inbred in me; a father’s duty is to provide for and protect his family. That unborn child was my grandchild. And I failed to protect its life. That decision caused me to much mental pain that I had to seek psychiatric help to get through it.

I do not believe lightly in taking life. I’m against the death penalty, even for Charles Manson.

But a decision was thrust upon me, and I believe I did what was best for my whole family, even though I suffered horrendously for the decision.

If I had allowed my daughter to die, her son, my 3-year old grandson, who is SO close to his mother, would have been left without a mother. Her death would have destroyed me and my family forever. We would never have recovered from it. And there was no guarantee that the unborn child would have lived.

If there had been a total ban on abortion, I would have buried my daughter and possibly the unborn child. No one can convince me that God intended it to be that way.

That is why I am pro-choice and will remain so.

Again, if you have never been forced to make the decision of who lives and who dies, you have no understanding of the situation and I consider your opinions irrelevant, because you have not walked in my shoes, or in the shoes of others who have been faced with the same tragic situation in their lives.

It’s easy for you to preach your church’s moral code; but will you follow it if you are placed into my situation? That’s the question you should be asking yourself, because until you are actually right there on the line, you really do NOT know what you will do.

True, some women have opted to continue their pregnancy under such circumstances, and many have survived. But many, many in similar situations have tried to do so and have died unnecessary deaths. It does not always have a positive result.

I chose life for my daughter; killing my unborn grandchild left me mentally bereft. But I would do the same thing again. Please God, never let me have to make a decision like that again.

My wife was ill for 3 years with Lou Gehrig’s disease. I took care of her at home. I had nurses and aides come in to assist me. I put a hospital bed in the family room for her comfort. Between me and my children, she was never alone, but was surrounded by lovin through out her whole illness. Her death devastated me.

But at no time did I ever consider any kind of euthanasia. I value life just as much as you all say that you do.

But if you have not been in the situation I was placed into, you really have no idea upon which to base your conclusions.

 

[jrgiancola]

My priest is married. When his wife was pregnant last time, there was a minor problem. He told the doctor unequivocally that “I am Greek Orthodox. If it comes to saving one or the other, you will save my wife.” Yes, he has experience with the situation. Thank God, he did not have to face the choice I made.

 

[jrgiancola]

I would indeed support a government bill which established a total ban on abortion with the exception being the life of the mother, so long as the doctor, and not congress, set the criteria for determining when the situation exists.

Still, whether it is legal or banned, women will continue to have abortions. They will just do as they always did prior to Roe v. Wade.

Did Prohibition stop the production of alcohol?

Abortion will stop when people in this country really come to the understanding that all human life is sacred and precious. I don’t know how to achieve that goal; perhaps it’s just a matter of every one of us behaving towards everyone else as Jesus taught us.

I love the line from Godfather III:

Christianity has been around for 2000 years and still Christ has not penetrated it.

What kind of Christians are we if we cannot love one another without reservation or qualification? What kind of Christian example do we set for others if we cannot show compassion, love, and mercy to the very least of our brothers and sisters? It’s easy to love those who agree with us, but hard to truly love those who do not. A perfect example is the hatred shown to homosexuals. Read some of the horrible things that posters on this website have written about gay people.

If we cannot treat all people as Christ did, how can the real Jesus Christ ever be revealed to the world?