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phil19034
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I was giving the argument (which Protestants are only part of). I said it’s a valid argument, but not one I completely agree with
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AlmaRedemptorisMater
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The supremacy of casualness in society as a whole is undeniable. While I could not judge on an individual level one’s outward appearance, I also think it is reasonable to point out that the casualness of society has affected the Church and maybe that’s not a good thing.
Yes, I like to dress up for Church. That means full suit and tie, sometimes with a vest. It massively improves my focus and mood. But this thread almost makes me think most people view that as a negative thing.
Yes, I like to dress up for Church. That means full suit and tie, sometimes with a vest. It massively improves my focus and mood. But this thread almost makes me think most people view that as a negative thing.
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Peeps
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Don’t worry. The wonderful thing about “casualness” is that most people could care less what you and I wear anywhere.
I work in a hospital lab, and most people wear scrubs. I happen to hate scrubs because I prefer knits–they don’t bind. My supervisor (also in her 60s) hates scrubs because she hates the tie waists, and prefers an actual waistband. Also, she wears several top latyers, including sweaters, because she is very thin and gets cold easily.
BUT…one young man who works in our department wears a suit with dress slacks, and white shirt, and a vest. He also wears a long coat and a TOP HAT in the colder weather.
He says that’s his style, and all of us think it fits him well.
He also wears his hair long and flowing, BTW, although he recently cut it for his upcoming wedding (to please his folks).
I think the same thing happens at church. Some people in our large parish dress to the nines–they could walk a red carpet in a Hollywood gala and fit right in.
Others come in their soccer uniforms. My husband usually wears casual dress slacks and a button down shirt. I wear what I wear to work–knit slack and a long-sleeve t. I try to dress in black if I’m playing piano/organ.
I think the only kind of dress that bothers me at church is when someone wears a really obvious Budweiser shirt, or a shirt that has one of those stupid sarcastic sayings on it (like “I’m with stupid” and an arrow pointing to the left").
And interesting, in St. Louis, where I have some family, a Budweiser shirt would be very appropriate! Many of the people who live there work at Anheuser-Busch!
I’m also bothered when I see younger women wearing the very revealing shorts or skirts…but…we do have a large Hispanic population in our city, and that’s a standard outfit for many of the women and teens. It doesn’t seem to be done to convey a “sexual invitation”–it’s just part of their culture. So I try hard to not judge, and instead, I think about how lovely the women are and how I wish I had their good figures!
I think that if any African American young men came in with their pants around their bottoms, that someone might say something, although I might be wrong about that. I would rather see the men there, even with their pants on the ground, instead of staying away from church!
No one judges what we wear to church, and that’s good. I think the time in history where people were judged negatively for their dress is gone and I think that’s a very good thing.
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CilladeRoma
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I want to know where that statistic comes from. Is it “practicing Catholics” or just people who “identify” as Catholic.
I honestly cannot believe that most people in the pews every week deny the Real Presence.
I honestly cannot believe that most people in the pews every week deny the Real Presence.
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jrgmercado
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Let’s be honest here…if it wasn’t how people dress, it would be that they didn’t bow low enough or their knee’s didn’t rest for a full 5 seconds when they genuflect and did you notice that when they crossed themselves they didn’t reach the middle of their head or all the way to the their 4 rib…BLASPHEMY!!!
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paperwight
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No, I can’t either. I think the person who made that claim is confusing those who self identify as Catholics with those who actually practise, as you say.
There is also the consideration that it depends how the question was asked. For instance, if the survey asked ‘Do you believe Jesus is physically present in the Blessed Sacrament’ , the Pope himself would say no, as the Real Presence is a sacramental and substantial presence, unlike any other.
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gracepoole
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Really? You think most people in the pews recognize, understand, and believe in transubstantiation and don’t simply see what’s happening as symbolic? Interesting. Most people in my large parish genuflect to the pew if they genuflect at all. They seemingly have little to no awareness of where the tabernacle is or what (Whom) it contains. They wait until the priest sits after communion to sit themselves – even if the Host has yet to be returned to the tabernacle. None of this seems to demonstrate a genuine understanding of what’s really taking place during the consecration.
In terms of the statistic, a poll was done years ago that revealed 70% of Catholic denied the Real Presence. That poll has been undone by others, however, and I think the accepted number is closer to 30%. In all honesty, I would be blown away, though, if 70% of people at my parish believe in transubstantiation.
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CilladeRoma
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Which is it- Real Presence or transubstantiation- 2 different things.if 70% of people at my parish believe in transubstantiation.
I don’t “understand” transubstantiation it’s a mystery. What I do know is that through it, Jesus becomes present in the Bread & Wine- his “Real Presence”.
I guess I just have a lot more faith in my fellow Catholics than some.
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gracepoole
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Nice.
Okay, then.
Okay, then.
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CilladeRoma
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What? You are stating 2 different things?
Which is it?
Which is it?
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OKComputer
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How do we know that?
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gracepoole
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Respectfully, once you stated the following, I think the conversation was at an end: “I guess I just have a lot more faith in my fellow Catholics than some.”
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gracepoole
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I believe I answered that question in a subsequent comment.
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CilladeRoma
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What is wrong with that statement? It’s true isn’t it?
You actually said you don’t believe the people in your parish have a genuine understanding of what is going on.
So why are you mad at me?
You actually said you don’t believe the people in your parish have a genuine understanding of what is going on.
So why are you mad at me?
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gracepoole
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I didn’t say I’m mad. I’m not. But when you tell someone that you have more faith in fellow Catholics than she does because she believes most around her are uncatechized, that’s not a friendly statement. Nor is it a true one, by the way. I have tremendous faith that if my fellow parishioners were properly catechized, they’d rejoice in what really takes place during the Mass.
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CilladeRoma
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gracepoole
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CatholicSooner
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Not really. Playing semantics now.
It is isn’t about having more faith in your fellow Catholics…it is about truth.
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AlmaRedemptorisMater
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I do struggle with the idea of casualness. Perhaps most of it is a romanticized version of the past where everyone was polite and fostered a good community. But on the flip side, I could argue that the proponents of casualness have a similar skewed perspective. One may say that the past was full of bad things and therefore can be safely disregarded. Both of those outlooks are incomplete.
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LisaB
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While this is certainly true, this mentality contributes to the overall casual approach to Mass, and not just in clothes (not sure why this thread turned into another clothing thread).
Why set our standards so low? A “better than nothing” attitude is not going to help us grow in our faith and it doesn’t glorify God. How do we face God at Mass and say to Him, I’m not giving you my all right now, but hey, you should be happy I’m here when others don’t come at all. As if we are doing Him a favor. I’m sure Catholics don’t actually think these things and don’t mean to be disrespectful, but when we are content with the minimum effort because it’s better than nothing, this is what we are communicating.
And again, this is not specifically about clothes. It’s about attitude. “Why confess more often than once a year, others go years without confession.” “Why set aside time for daily prayer, there is no required minimum,” etc, etc.
A priest once told me, “never think that you are a good enough Catholic.” Good enough is what gets us into trouble when it comes to our faith. “Good enough” is for house cleaning.
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