Have we lost our way?

[russell007]

Catholic Charismatic Renewel

Isnt this an oxymoron? Especially comming from a 2000 year old religion that has never had to change any dogmatic teaching.

I grew up in the 70s and I remember having to walk over the people in the seats just to get in line for communion.

Now everyone goes to communion. Does this mean that 99% of the people in our parish are with out mortal sin? I dont believe that
for a minute!

I think most people are not sure what a mortal sin is and if you commit one they dont know your not supposed to receieve communion.

I complain about what may be considerd small abuses in the church. Clown masses,Teen Masses with blairing guiturs and drums,
The whole congregation holding hands during the Our Father
(If you choose not to hold hands your scoffed at or perhaps your ignord when it comes time to offer peace by the person you refused to hold hands with because they think your just being a jerk when its their ignorance)

Ive seen parents feeding cookies or goldfish to their childeren and when the kid doesnt finish them the parent shuves them into his/her mouth and then goes to communion.

I walked into our church one Sunday the Narthex from top to bottom was filled with Life Teen shirts it was like having to travel through a crowded flee market just to get to Nave!

People flailing their hands “and also with you” as if that adds some sort of extra prayer power or something.

Altarboys are actually the “prescribed” however its left up to the bishop and because its left up to the bishop liberalism, left wing society we live in today your going to see mostly altargirls.

For every girl who dons a robe as a Roman Catholic altar girl today, Dorie Gruss sees one less boy who wears a priest’s collar tomorrow.

“Little boys don’t want to do what little girls are doing,” says Gruss, head of Catholics for Responsible Action here, who fears the number of altar boys will shrink with the growing legion of altar girls, and so subsequently will the pool of future priests.

In a statement published last week, which reflects the draft of a letter made public today by six other Catholic bishops on the role of women in the church,

So these seemingly benign cancers that have infiltraded the church can cause signifcate changes and harm down the road.

I quote Father Seeley

"As we are also all well-aware, it is not the Catholic Church, or Christianity in general, which controls most of the communications media today. Rather it is what is generally known as ‘secular humanism.’ That is, it is a philosophy which is atheistic. A philosophy in which God and His Church have no place. It is without God.

"It is no secret that secular humanism, through the use of the communications media, has shaped the thinking and attitudes of hundreds of millions who were once Christian, but now, because of the acceptance of the ideas of secular humanism, no longer are. This, in turn, has caused a chain reaction from parents to children, from children to other children, from universities to grammar schools to the man on the street.

"The one area in which secular humanism has made its greatest impact is in influencing people to accept principles of sexual behavior which counter both the good of individuals and of society at large. This is so true that much of what used to be called Christendom is disappearing from the face of the earth.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I am with you.
last night i watched father corapi. oh how i wish he would be a bishop one day.

i assume that some bishops in america are being disobedient to the holy father.

when listen to father corapi last night he said: the world is in a mess and thre reason for that is that the CC is in a mess. he speaks the truth and he is not afraid of no one.

i wonder how many times has he got in trouble for speaking out.

God bless us all.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Now everyone goes to communion. Does this mean that 99% of the people in our parish are with out mortal sin? I dont believe that for a minute!

I think most people are not sure what a mortal sin is and if you commit one they dont know your not supposed to receieve communion.

Agreed. Inadequate catechesis. Indequate & misguided spirtuality. (Before I get flamed as is so abundant on CAF, I am not “blaming” or “disrespecting” priests. Most priests I know would die for greater spiritual formation of the laity.) I am simply stating the situation as I see it, as a parishioner & layperson who has often hungered for such guidance, who has sought out clerical spiritual directors (difficult to find), and who has led scripture study in parishes with a view toward greater spiritual development.

The knowledge and the sense of sin spring from a deep spirituality which is rooted in a Biblical “fear of” (reverence for/awareness of) God. To be redundant, the eye should be on God, not self. Modern spirituality focuses (i.m.o.) too much on self as the starting point. – whatever Catholic spiritual training for lay people does exist out there. Spiritualities of various eras (& of various cultures) are connected to those dominant cultures/eras.

This is an “I”-driven society. But we know Biblically that we cannot be united to God unless we die to self.

This may sound odd, but I actually think that what we see is due to a loss of intellectualism in the church. What I mean is, when I was growing up, there was a sense of historicity. No one cared whether ancient teachings & sacred tradition were “relevant” to modernity. That’s because the value of history & philosophy, as underpinnings of theology, were clearly communicated – even to non-intellectuals in the pews. And for laity who wanted to understand those foundations more cerebrally, the teaching was available, & available without apology. But the theology remained intellectually-driven. As a child, yes, a child, I knew who Thomas Aquinas was, St. Augustine was, all the Church fathers. I knew what they said. (Imagine.)

I think what the OP describes are symptoms of a Catholicism without a rudder. One, Universal, Catholic, and Apostolic are supposed to be across time, not just across space/geography. In ancient times it was gravely sinful (First Commandment) to put self before God: to orient your life around self. It is still true in 2008: it’s just that too few people have been reminded of that.

There continues to be a hunger for genuine spirituality; however, there are not enough clergy personnel to assume leadership in that area. Thus, it is left to the laity too often to lead spiritually (by default). the resultant lay-led spiritually may be one led by the concept “I” or one led by the concept of God. But if the latter, such lay leaders to do not necessarily have the spiritual & theological formation themselves to lead effectively in that direction. In other cases, priests – when in a position to lead – seem afraid to assert the rigorous spirituality which results in that genuine sense of sin which is the OP’s concern.

One thing that sincere seekers can do is to continue to press for reverent liturgies. When priests see that there’s a demand for these, they tend to respond affirmatively by providing those liturgies. (As opposed to the cracker-eating, hand-holding, casual atmospheres of which the OP complains.) And in themselves, prayerful liturgies encourage sincerity & self-examination in the pews. The other day, in my local, almost pre-VII parish, there was no one in the confessional line during Mass, which I noted because it’s a rarity. The priest left the box while waiting for the full time. Normally, for a weekday Mass where there are maybe 30 people (there are several weekday Masses per day), there are roughly 4 to 10 people who go to Confession prior to or near the beginning of that Mass.

 

[wisdomseeker]

i agree with you. once i complained to the priest about the way things are going on in the Church, he told me i must be open to change. he also emphasizes VII a lot but i wonder if he is following the true teachings of the VII or if he is following the misleading teachings of the VII. in my parish also i see people getting more and more to themselves. feel good type of thing. holding hands during Our Father. i reject this and i do not hold anyone hands.

why is that some of these parishes resembling more and more like protestant congregations. are we trying to become jus like them and their ways of worship?

May God have Mercy on us all.

 

[russell007]

I am with you.
last night i watched father corapi. oh how i wish he would be a bishop one day.

i assume that some bishops in america are being disobedient to the holy father.

when listen to father corapi last night he said: the world is in a mess and thre reason for that is that the CC is in a mess. he speaks the truth and he is not afraid of no one.

i wonder how many times has he got in trouble for speaking out.

God bless us all.

I enjoy watching Fr Corapi and also miss Mother Angelica
both are very orthodox in their viewpoints as is God.

Fr Corapi once said if you see things wrong going on in the church thats in your face you have the obligation to say something about it or your just as guilty if not more so.

Every time I see people mimicing the preist or doing things they think are holy acts (that are out of what we should be doing in mass)

I think of when Moses led the Hebrews from bondage and when he went away for a short 40 days came back and people were worshipping a golden calf.

I see the abuses as our golden calf.

Its like we are all children and those of you have children can relate.

If I tell a child come home right after you get off the bus and a few weeks later find out he/she has been going over to a friends house and comming home only in the nick of time when you get home and is one day caught the exscuse is well I did come home
after I got off the bus you never said I couldnt go to Johnnys house before I get home.

It seems somethings have been allowed for because these things implimented into the church (by the people with good intentions) have spread like wildfire.

If you have allowed your child to do something before and now you tell him/her no more what happens?

I think its a run away train.Its been going on so long the church is afraid to stand up and put a stop to certain things in fear of loosing members perhaps.

Maybe the church has forgotten the gate to heaven is narrow and the gates to hell are wide open.

People forget God is not pollitically correct and its not have it your way its Gods way.

Our priest had a sermon about what the orans posture is really meant for and why some hold hands during the Our Father however he was so charitable about his explinations during the “also with you” people put their hands higher it was louder and prouder it was as if they only heard thats what we are supposed to be doing instead of what he was really trying to say. I just shook my head.

Lets say there are two kinds of fathers in the world one being very loving and spoiling his children and the other still very loving yet also strict with his rules.

Pope John Paul spoiled us with his love he stated the laws but never really moved on it. Therefore most parishes when about installing exspinsive speaker systems teen mass or in truth “Mass” became more of a concert than anything else. Kids being kids wearing what they wear going up to the altar during times they should have been kneeling,Tabernacles being taken out of the church

What Ive seen in my little corner of the world after Pope Benedict
has been our pope is the tabernacle being restored back where it belongs kids no longer running up to the altar.
We are getting back a little bit more of our Catholic identity but I feel we have a lot more to go and it wont be with out making the children (us) upset. Just imagine no longer being able to put out your hands to recieve Jesus but actually kneeling to him.You know like treating him as if he was really in front of you kind of like beleieving in the real presence
Because you know if you had the faith and believed Jesus was in front of you You would have to kneel.

 

[russell007]

i agree with you. once i complained to the priest about the way things are going on in the Church, he told me i must be open to change. he also emphasizes VII a lot but i wonder if he is following the true teachings of the VII or if he is following the misleading teachings of the VII. in my parish also i see people getting more and more to themselves. feel good type of thing. holding hands during Our Father. i reject this and i do not hold anyone hands.

why is that some of these parishes resembling more and more like protestant congregations. are we trying to become jus like them and their ways of worship?

May God have Mercy on us all.

WisdomSeeker,

I feel the calling to be a deacon however in my Diocese you have to go to FTCM as sort of an intro for anything you want to do in your parish Teach,RCIA, Deacon etc…

The first sections we talked about the arthurs of the bible poets priests YEPD etc… They told the tales according to their background.

The poets may have painted a more fantastic story then lets say the preist may have told the story according to the viewpoints of the law.

For example they told us perhaps the parting of the red sea was more of a metaphore. I thought to myself how long before Jesus dying on the cross and raised in three days becomes a metaphore?

They called the authurs as JEPD I explained to our instructor who holds a Doctorate in theology we as catholics should look at it as YEPD instead of calling God Jehova.

She said your probably right…nothing else so then I walked back to my seat.

This FTCM class has a real protestant flavour with a touch of athiest spice if it were a soup it wouldnt even be pallitable!

 

[puzzleannie]

Catholic Charismatic Renewel

Isnt this an oxymoron? Especially comming from a 2000 year old religion that has never had to change any dogmatic teaching.

I grew up in the 70s and I remember having to walk over the people in the seats just to get in line for communion.

Now everyone goes to communion. Does this mean that 99% of the people in our parish are with out mortal sin? I dont believe that
for a minute!.

none of what you complain about in your lengthy OP has anything whatever to do with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. What is the question about liturgy and sacraments you wish to discuss?

 

[russell007]

none of what you complain about in your lengthy OP has anything whatever to do with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. What is the question about liturgy and sacraments you wish to discuss?

The others didnt have difficulty with stating their opinions based on the posted question nor do I wish to elaborate into technical terms or diasect each illicit act and use quotes from the rubrics and letters from the holy see backing up my claims. Its simply not necessary for most folks and those like yourself who prefer a more defined intelletual questions can create your own post
something more to your own liking perhaps.

Theres nothing new posted here that has not already been debated.

I speak plainly

If my lengthy post bothers you in some way or you find something that is incorrect by all means speak your mind…

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal.Is just another cancer of copias amounts of illicit acts. The reason its in the OP is because
the OP is an umbrella of issues that either should be or have been addressed.

 

[Tepeyac]

Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, the preacher to the Pontifical Household, is a member of the movement and he defends it in a couple of articles:

Father Cantalamessa on Charismatic Renewal

No Need to Fear Charismatic Renewal

Q: As you are about to finish preaching a retreat attended by 1,000 Charismatic delegates from all over the world, what message would you like to give believers who do not know the Renewal?

Father Cantalamessa: I want to say to the faithful, to bishops, to priests, not to be afraid. I don’t know why there is fear. Perhaps, in some measure, because this experience began in other Christian confessions, such as Pentecostals and Protestants.

However, the Pope is not afraid. He has spoken of the ecclesial movements, and also of Charismatic Renewal, as signs of a new springtime of the Church, and he often stresses the importance of this. And Paul VI said it was an opportunity for the Church.

There is no need for fear. There are episcopal conferences, for example in Latin America – this is true of Brazil – where the hierarchy has discovered that Charismatic Renewal is not a problem. It is part of the solution to the problem of Catholics who have left the Church because they don’t find in it a living word, a lived Bible, the possibility of expressing the faith in a joyful manner, in a free way, and Charismatic Renewal is a formidable means that the Lord has given the Church so that one can live an experience of the Spirit, Pentecostal, in the Catholic Church, without the need to leave the Church.

Nor should Charismatic Renewal be regarded as an “island” where some emotional people get together. It is not an island. It is a grace meant for all the baptized. The external signs can be different, but in its essence, it is an experience meant for all the baptized.

He has continued as preacher under the present Pope. If Pope Benedict has a member of the Charismatic Movement as his personal preacher, then I don’t think the movement can be simply dismissed as “another cancer”.

 

[yellowbird]

I just wanted to give you some hope - my parish is NOTHING like what you described. Our mass is beautiful - and our Priest is such a dedicated Holy man. Since becoming Cathoic, I’ve heard countless homilies about sin and the importance of going to confession and people are obviously listening because the lines are so long every single week. Our homilies are not fluffy feel goods… they are serious and very convicting. We mainly have altar boys - always six of them and I know several boys in our parish who are considering the Priesthood. We now have a Latin mass several times a month… I’ve never gone because I don’t know Latin - but I’ve heard they are beautiful. I could just go on and on…

I hear the sadness in your post and maybe as a newer Catholic I can’t totally relate to it because I don’t know what things were like before… but all the things you’ve mentioned (teen masses etc.) aren’t happening everywhere, and I suppose you know that -

I guess I just wanted to say this… this is His Church… He is still in control so we could never totally lose our way. I take such comfort in knowing after all my years of searching that I can totally trust in that.

 

[russell007]

Thank you for the information.

With all charitable intentions:

Taken from Wikipedia:The term Charismatic Movement describes the adoption (circa 1960 onwards for Protestants, 1967 onwards for Roman Catholics) of certain beliefs typical of those held by Pentecostal Christians by those within the historic denominations.[1] The term “charismatic” was first coined by Harald Bredesen, a Lutheran minister, in 1962, to describe what was happening at that time in the older churches. Confronted with the term “neo-Pentecostal,” he said The genesis of the Charismatic Movement however is variously attributed to Father Dennis Bennett, an Episcopal priest, in 1960. His book Nine O’Clock in the Morning gives a personal account of this period.

Does this sound like something a Roman Catholic should be involved in? Reads hereticle to me.

We are to keep our catholic identity and do not stray.

What usually happens to a group of people in unfamiliar territory when a couple of people stray from the group…They get lost.

Do sheep herders worry about the sheep that stray from the group?

Getting to know God:

Here is what the bible tells us about God for the past lets say for the sake of argument 4 thousand years.

If you read the OT youll find God has spacifics on how he wants to be worshiped, what colour curtains, the types of angels should be carved. Suggest reading about festable of booths.Read about the Noahs ark and the arc of the covenent God was very spacific.

Now I think we can agree on God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.

If we are to believe the Holy Spirit has guided the holy see on how we should worship (when we should kneel,stand, bow, sacred silence)etc…Why would anyone need to add anything to this?

Why would the God/church allow chaotic worship?

There are three ex cathedra dogmatic pronouncements (infallibly revealed truths through God that can never be changed or revoked) teaching that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. The most striking of those pronouncements reads:

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Bishop Louis LaRavoire Morrow, S.T.D., holds that “A Catholic sins against Faith by taking part in non-Catholic worship, because he thus professes belief in a religion he knows to be false.”

Yet by the admission of Catholic Charismatic pioneer, Kevin Ranaghan, the movement began with Catholics performing the grotesque ritual of seeking a spiritual blood transfusion from the dead corpse of Protestantism, and proclaiming that God “filled them to overflowing with the spirit” for doing so. Such collaborating and “seeking the holiness of the Holy Spirit” from anathematized heretics cannot be a religious movement truly of God.

Pope Pius XI further castigated interfaith projects in his Encyclical Mortalium Animos on fostering true religious unity, stating, "…It is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics.

What has been the result of the Protestant revolt which began in the 16th century?

Why are there so many different Protestant sects which claim to be founded on the Bible and the Bible alone? Let us listen to St. Alphonsus Mary Liguori: “Innovators say that the Lord gives each of the faithful a clear knowledge of Scripture. Behold, the ‘private interpretation’ of the heretics which has produced such a variety of creeds! Hence, after all the Congresses and Synods they have held, they have never been able to draw up a formula of uniform belief; hence, everyone knows that among the Reformers there are as many formulas of faith as there are individuals. This alone is sufficient to show that they are in error and do not have the true faith. God arranged that the true faith would be preserved in the Roman Church alone, so that, there being but one Church, there would be but one faith and one doctrine for all the faithful.”

Even Martin Luther, the originator of Protestantism and instigator of the idea of private interpretation of the Bible, admitted that: “There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads.”

For those outside of the Catholic Church, let this paper be an eye-opener for you to investigate the doctrinal teaching of the Roman Catholic Church that “outside of the Catholic Church, there is no salvation”. So many souls are lost because of ignorance. God wants all men to be saved. He tells us so in the Holy Bible, that He enlightens every man that cometh into the world. He provides us with all the means most proper for us to be saved. Ignorance of the means of salvation is sinful because it is due to slothful negligence. “And they did not understand until the flood came and swept them away.” (Matt. 24:39)

God Bless

cited:www.olrl.org/doctrine

 

[russell007]

I just wanted to give you some hope - my parish is NOTHING like what you described. Our mass is beautiful - and our Priest is such a dedicated Holy man. Since becoming Cathoic, I’ve heard countless homilies about sin and the importance of going to confession and people are obviously listening because the lines are so long every single week. Our homilies are not fluffy feel goods… they are serious and very convicting. We mainly have altar boys - always six of them and I know several boys in our parish who are considering the Priesthood. We now have a Latin mass several times a month… I’ve never gone because I don’t know Latin - but I’ve heard they are beautiful. I could just go on and on…

I hear the sadness in your post and maybe as a newer Catholic I can’t totally relate to it because I don’t know what things were like before… but all the things you’ve mentioned (teen masses etc.) aren’t happening everywhere, and I suppose you know that -

I guess I just wanted to say this… this is His Church… He is still in control so we could never totally lose our way. I take such comfort in knowing after all my years of searching that I can totally trust in that.

Thank for your gentle words of encouragement.

Its always heartfelt to hear of good things happening.

As you have shown there is still holiness in this world

God gave us hope

As Paul said FIGHT the good fight.

Theres always going to be people who want things the way they want them.

To put things into perspective I am going to step out on a limb here: I would “enjoy mass” a lot more if I could sit there drinking bourbon and coke Im sure I could feel the spirit hit me after couple of those being loosend up let my fears and inibitions melt away.

Is my “dream mass”-lol really so different than those who feel the need to worship as if the ceilings falling in?

See how silly that sounds I had to expand it a little to open your mind.

May God bless you and keep you!

 

[wisdomseeker]

Catholic Charismatic Renewel

Isnt this an oxymoron? Especially comming from a 2000 year old religion that has never had to change any dogmatic teaching.

I grew up in the 70s and I remember having to walk over the people in the seats just to get in line for communion.

Now everyone goes to communion. Does this mean that 99% of the people in our parish are with out mortal sin? I dont believe that
for a minute!

I think most people are not sure what a mortal sin is and if you commit one they dont know your not supposed to receieve communion.

I complain about what may be considerd small abuses in the church. Clown masses,Teen Masses with blairing guiturs and drums,
The whole congregation holding hands during the Our Father
(If you choose not to hold hands your scoffed at or perhaps your ignord when it comes time to offer peace by the person you refused to hold hands with because they think your just being a jerk when its their ignorance)

Ive seen parents feeding cookies or goldfish to their childeren and when the kid doesnt finish them the parent shuves them into his/her mouth and then goes to communion.

I walked into our church one Sunday the Narthex from top to bottom was filled with Life Teen shirts it was like having to travel through a crowded flee market just to get to Nave!

People flailing their hands “and also with you” as if that adds some sort of extra prayer power or something.

Altarboys are actually the “prescribed” however its left up to the bishop and because its left up to the bishop liberalism, left wing society we live in today your going to see mostly altargirls.

For every girl who dons a robe as a Roman Catholic altar girl today, Dorie Gruss sees one less boy who wears a priest’s collar tomorrow.

“Little boys don’t want to do what little girls are doing,” says Gruss, head of Catholics for Responsible Action here, who fears the number of altar boys will shrink with the growing legion of altar girls, and so subsequently will the pool of future priests.

In a statement published last week, which reflects the draft of a letter made public today by six other Catholic bishops on the role of women in the church,

So these seemingly benign cancers that have infiltraded the church can cause signifcate changes and harm down the road.

I quote Father Seeley

"As we are also all well-aware, it is not the Catholic Church, or Christianity in general, which controls most of the communications media today. Rather it is what is generally known as ‘secular humanism.’ That is, it is a philosophy which is atheistic. A philosophy in which God and His Church have no place. It is without God.

"It is no secret that secular humanism, through the use of the communications media, has shaped the thinking and attitudes of hundreds of millions who were once Christian, but now, because of the acceptance of the ideas of secular humanism, no longer are. This, in turn, has caused a chain reaction from parents to children, from children to other children, from universities to grammar schools to the man on the street.

"The one area in which secular humanism has made its greatest impact is in influencing people to accept principles of sexual behavior which counter both the good of individuals and of society at large. This is so true that much of what used to be called Christendom is disappearing from the face of the earth.

i have heard that father Groeschel is behind this movement charismatic renew within the Church. i dont know how much this is true. anybody knows anything about this?

peace and love of our Lord be with us all.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I enjoy watching Fr Corapi and also miss Mother Angelica
both are very orthodox in their viewpoints as is God.

Fr Corapi once said if you see things wrong going on in the church thats in your face you have the obligation to say something about it or your just as guilty if not more so.

Every time I see people mimicing the preist or doing things they think are holy acts (that are out of what we should be doing in mass)

I think of when Moses led the Hebrews from bondage and when he went away for a short 40 days came back and people were worshipping a golden calf.

I see the abuses as our golden calf.

Its like we are all children and those of you have children can relate.

If I tell a child come home right after you get off the bus and a few weeks later find out he/she has been going over to a friends house and comming home only in the nick of time when you get home and is one day caught the exscuse is well I did come home
after I got off the bus you never said I couldnt go to Johnnys house before I get home.

It seems somethings have been allowed for because these things implimented into the church (by the people with good intentions) have spread like wildfire.

If you have allowed your child to do something before and now you tell him/her no more what happens?

I think its a run away train.Its been going on so long the church is afraid to stand up and put a stop to certain things in fear of loosing members perhaps.

Maybe the church has forgotten the gate to heaven is narrow and the gates to hell are wide open.

People forget God is not pollitically correct and its not have it your way its Gods way.

Our priest had a sermon about what the orans posture is really meant for and why some hold hands during the Our Father however he was so charitable about his explinations during the “also with you” people put their hands higher it was louder and prouder it was as if they only heard thats what we are supposed to be doing instead of what he was really trying to say. I just shook my head.

Lets say there are two kinds of fathers in the world one being very loving and spoiling his children and the other still very loving yet also strict with his rules.

Pope John Paul spoiled us with his love he stated the laws but never really moved on it. Therefore most parishes when about installing exspinsive speaker systems teen mass or in truth “Mass” became more of a concert than anything else. Kids being kids wearing what they wear going up to the altar during times they should have been kneeling,Tabernacles being taken out of the church

What Ive seen in my little corner of the world after Pope Benedict
has been our pope is the tabernacle being restored back where it belongs kids no longer running up to the altar.
We are getting back a little bit more of our Catholic identity but I feel we have a lot more to go and it wont be with out making the children (us) upset. Just imagine no longer being able to put out your hands to recieve Jesus but actually kneeling to him.You know like treating him as if he was really in front of you kind of like beleieving in the real presence
Because you know if you had the faith and believed Jesus was in front of you You would have to kneel.

i pray you are right. Amen.

 

[wisdomseeker]

WisdomSeeker,

I feel the calling to be a deacon however in my Diocese you have to go to FTCM as sort of an intro for anything you want to do in your parish Teach,RCIA, Deacon etc…

The first sections we talked about the arthurs of the bible poets priests YEPD etc… They told the tales according to their background.

The poets may have painted a more fantastic story then lets say the preist may have told the story according to the viewpoints of the law.

For example they told us perhaps the parting of the red sea was more of a metaphore. I thought to myself how long before Jesus dying on the cross and raised in three days becomes a metaphore?

They called the authurs as JEPD I explained to our instructor who holds a Doctorate in theology we as catholics should look at it as YEPD instead of calling God Jehova.

She said your probably right…nothing else so then I walked back to my seat.

This FTCM class has a real protestant flavour with a touch of athiest spice if it were a soup it wouldnt even be pallitable!

it just makes me wonder. why are we getting so much influence from protestants. i just do not get it.

Jesus I trust in You…

 

[wisdomseeker]

Thank you for the information.

With all charitable intentions:

Taken from Wikipedia:The term Charismatic Movement describes the adoption (circa 1960 onwards for Protestants, 1967 onwards for Roman Catholics) of certain beliefs typical of those held by Pentecostal Christians by those within the historic denominations.[1] The term “charismatic” was first coined by Harald Bredesen, a Lutheran minister, in 1962, to describe what was happening at that time in the older churches. Confronted with the term “neo-Pentecostal,” he said The genesis of the Charismatic Movement however is variously attributed to Father Dennis Bennett, an Episcopal priest, in 1960. His book Nine O’Clock in the Morning gives a personal account of this period.

Does this sound like something a Roman Catholic should be involved in? Reads hereticle to me.

We are to keep our catholic identity and do not stray.

What usually happens to a group of people in unfamiliar territory when a couple of people stray from the group…They get lost.

Do sheep herders worry about the sheep that stray from the group?

Getting to know God:

Here is what the bible tells us about God for the past lets say for the sake of argument 4 thousand years.

If you read the OT youll find God has spacifics on how he wants to be worshiped, what colour curtains, the types of angels should be carved. Suggest reading about festable of booths.Read about the Noahs ark and the arc of the covenent God was very spacific.

Now I think we can agree on God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow.

If we are to believe the Holy Spirit has guided the holy see on how we should worship (when we should kneel,stand, bow, sacred silence)etc…Why would anyone need to add anything to this?

Why would the God/church allow chaotic worship?

There are three ex cathedra dogmatic pronouncements (infallibly revealed truths through God that can never be changed or revoked) teaching that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. The most striking of those pronouncements reads:

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Bishop Louis LaRavoire Morrow, S.T.D., holds that “A Catholic sins against Faith by taking part in non-Catholic worship, because he thus professes belief in a religion he knows to be false.”

Yet by the admission of Catholic Charismatic pioneer, Kevin Ranaghan, the movement began with Catholics performing the grotesque ritual of seeking a spiritual blood transfusion from the dead corpse of Protestantism, and proclaiming that God “filled them to overflowing with the spirit” for doing so. Such collaborating and “seeking the holiness of the Holy Spirit” from anathematized heretics cannot be a religious movement truly of God.

Pope Pius XI further castigated interfaith projects in his Encyclical Mortalium Animos on fostering true religious unity, stating, "…It is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics.

What has been the result of the Protestant revolt which began in the 16th century?

Why are there so many different Protestant sects which claim to be founded on the Bible and the Bible alone? Let us listen to St. Alphonsus Mary Liguori: “Innovators say that the Lord gives each of the faithful a clear knowledge of Scripture. Behold, the ‘private interpretation’ of the heretics which has produced such a variety of creeds! Hence, after all the Congresses and Synods they have held, they have never been able to draw up a formula of uniform belief; hence, everyone knows that among the Reformers there are as many formulas of faith as there are individuals. This alone is sufficient to show that they are in error and do not have the true faith. God arranged that the true faith would be preserved in the Roman Church alone, so that, there being but one Church, there would be but one faith and one doctrine for all the faithful.”

Even Martin Luther, the originator of Protestantism and instigator of the idea of private interpretation of the Bible, admitted that: “There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads.”

For those outside of the Catholic Church, let this paper be an eye-opener for you to investigate the doctrinal teaching of the Roman Catholic Church that “outside of the Catholic Church, there is no salvation”. So many souls are lost because of ignorance. God wants all men to be saved. He tells us so in the Holy Bible, that He enlightens every man that cometh into the world. He provides us with all the means most proper for us to be saved. Ignorance of the means of salvation is sinful because it is due to slothful negligence. “And they did not understand until the flood came and swept them away.” (Matt. 24:39)

God Bless

cited:www.olrl.org/doctrine

I agree with you. and how are we to be an example to them if we are acting just like them.

we need more priests like father Corapi.

 

[buffalo]

It all starts with the Mass, the source and summit of out faith.

** Affirm the central role of sacred liturgy in the teaching ministry of the Church** No Christian community is built up which does not grow from and hinge on the celebration of the most Holy Eucharist. From this all education for community spirit must begin. (Vatican II, The Ministry and Life of Priests, 6.)

 

[russell007]

it just makes me wonder. why are we getting so much influence from protestants. i just do not get it.

Jesus I trust in You…

In my humble opinion I think theres two major reasons our people have been influenced by the prots

This is blanketed so take it with a grain of salt.

1.They put on a good show. Turn on TBN the preachers are charismatic.The people are usually laughing or at least a mile wide smile.The music is contemparary. It looks like fun.
Of course one might loose site in all the hupla going on around you of why your there in the first place but that another thread all together.Its apealing to those who feel the need to party while worshiping.I think thats why speaking in tongues is so popular with some sects Snake handlers too.
To me this stuff sounds like it more belongs in a circus than a church.

Its “touchy feely” people like to feel good.It looks like the protestants at least from the outside are having a great time. They get together after church and on Wednesdays they usually know everyone in the congregation.

1. There church service is more of a bible lesson than it is actual worship. I mean aside from the singing when do you actually see them kneeling in worship? Unless its one of the waterd down mass type services. Back on point because of the bible lessons given to them they are usually better educated (with their point of view) then the typical catholic putting in his/her one hour a week and thats it. They can be persuasive if you dont know much about our faith.

 

[russell007]

Think about this.

Biblically speaking when God “renewd the faith” Was it done by our standards?

Did God say I would prefer for you to worship in a way you see fit?

What did John the Baptist tell you?

Have you not known? Has it not been told to you since the beginning from the foundations of the earth?

Gods ways are not your ways!

Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, 4 Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. 5 Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now you know what withholdeth, that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him, 9 Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, 10 And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: 12 That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.
13 But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth: 14 Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, **stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. **

Simple:Worshipping w/ Charisma is not prescribed from any letter of the law but is a personal interpretation of how one feels and acts.

When God renews his church it comes with more rules not laxed freedom of how mankind thinks they should have things.

The ten commandments
Lev
Forgive 70x7
Love the Lord thy God with all your heart soul and mind.
Love thy neighbor etc…

When I think of the so called Charismatic Renewel and what they do at these masses order & catholic tradition do not come to mind.

 

[buffalo]

In my humble opinion I think theres two major reasons our people have been influenced by the prots

This is blanketed so take it with a grain of salt.

1.They put on a good show. Turn on TBN the preachers are charismatic.The people are usually laughing or at least a mile wide smile.The music is contemparary. It looks like fun.
Of course one might loose site in all the hupla going on around you of why your there in the first place but that another thread all together.Its apealing to those who feel the need to party while worshiping.I think thats why speaking in tongues is so popular with some sects Snake handlers too.
To me this stuff sounds like it more belongs in a circus than a church.

Its “touchy feely” people like to feel good.It looks like the protestants at least from the outside are having a great time. They get together after church and on Wednesdays they usually know everyone in the congregation.

1. There church service is more of a bible lesson than it is actual worship. I mean aside from the singing when do you actually see them kneeling in worship? Unless its one of the waterd down mass type services. Back on point because of the bible lessons given to them they are usually better educated (with their point of view) then the typical catholic putting in his/her one hour a week and thats it. They can be persuasive if you dont know much about our faith.

People attend Mass expecting to be entertained as much of today’s world centers on entertainment and self gratification.

They do not realize that they assist at Mass by their very presence.

Worship is a verb.