Have we lost our way?

[grannymh]

Regarding post 11 – another source

The following is difficult reading; however, it could be beneficial provided that quotes are not taken out of context. One needs to understand the document as a whole.

The following was published by the Vatican in September, 2000:

The Declaration “Dominus Iesus” [sic] On The Unicity and Salvific Universality of Jesus Christ and the Church

 

[oremus]

People attend Mass expecting to be entertained as much of today’s world centers on entertainment and self gratification.

They do not realize that they assist at Mass by their very presence.

Worship is a verb.

I once heard the head of the liturgy committee (isn’t this superfluous, we have a priest) thank Father for making the Mass more enjoyable!

 

[russell007]

I once heard the head of the liturgy committee (isn’t this superfluous, we have a priest) thank Father for making the Mass more enjoyable!

Oremus,

Thats sad.

We are working so hard to make the mass so accommodating for all walks of life.

Only having to go to mass on Holy Days and one hour a week isnt accommodating enough for some people?

Some of these masses are what I would say a mochery

I challange you to go to YOUTUBE and put in clown mass and Liturgical Abuse.

Liturgical Abuse: Puppets (WCCTA 2008) Check this one out.

This is what the abuses lead to.

 

[sara199]

Such questions can seem terribly acidic. Not intended. They are meant to awaken us to the possibility we have forgotten our purpose. We are the light. We aren’t the doctrinally right light. We aren’t the few and only light. Neither are we the three hours per week light. We are the light…the light of God. But for heaven’s sake…what for? Henderson Latisse disposable contact lenses

We are the light because the world grows dark. The church is to shine. We’ve lost our way. We are failing to take the light to the world; instead we hunker down in spiritual foxholes called church buildings and celebrate or argue…whichever seems our congregational bent.

We’ve assumed we aren’t a part of Pelosi or Limbaugh or Gates or Sotomayor. Too, we’ve removed ourselves from the economic concerns as if we have no place in it. We are wrong. We have forgotten. Jesus didn’t hit earth to build mini-marts for Bible thumpers. He hit earth to bring relief to the political, economical, and social darknesses. He was the light and in resurrecting lit our wicks that we might do some damage to continual darkness.

 

[Cat]

it just makes me wonder. why are we getting so much influence from protestants. i just do not get it.

Jesus I trust in You…

A lot of Protestants have converted to Catholicism. I am one of them. It is inevitable that many of us will bring our practices into our Catholic faith, and if no one in authority tells us that it is wrong or inappropriate, we will continue to do so. We’re not trying to do anything evil. We just don’t realize that it’s wrong or inappropriate, and in many cases, it ISN’T wrong or inappropriate. It’s just not “Catholic.”

I’ll give you an example. It feels very awkward for me to keep my eyes open during prayer–to me, this seems most irreverent. Yet Catholics do it all the time. Praying with open eyes during Mass is “Catholic.”

So after my last foot surgery, I went back to a prayer position that I used in Protestant churches. (I can’t kneel because of a bad knee and because of the surgeries.) I lean forward in my seat (sitting on the edge of my seat) and bury my head in my hands or arms leaning on the pew in front of me. I do NOT keep my eyes open.

When I did this for the first time in a Catholic church, it made me “feel” right and reverent and humble again. Keeping my eyes open just doesn’t “feel” reverent to me. But burying my head in my hands DOES “feel” reverent.

And since Holy Mother Church has NOT ruled that people cannot do my prayer position, I’ll probably keep doing it.

Perhaps other Catholics will see me praying in this way and say, “Hmm, I think I’ll give that a try. It sure would block out extraneous sights like women in scanty clothing and and men in beer t-shirts and children eating goldfish crackers. And it would help to block out extraneous noises like elderly people chatting and cell phones going off. And it would keep me focused on God and not the beautiful church, the hymnal, the windows, what the people are wearing, etc.”

So the Catholic tries this prayer position, likes it, and then other Catholics try it and like it…do you see how Protestant influences can make their way into the Catholic Church? Gradually, with no intention of evil or disruption by the former Protestant.

This is just an example, and hopefully my “influence” is not harmful in any way to the Catholic Church. But I’m sure that other Protestant practices have crept in in exactly the same way, gradually, with no intention of watering down Catholicism, and perhaps some of these practices ARE harmful to Catholicism. And perhaps not.

I personally see nothing wrong with quite a few Protestant influences–e.g., friendliness. Warmth. Welcoming attitude toward newcomers. Assisting newcomers to understand the Church and Christianity. Witnessing in everyday life (evangelism, with or without words). Boldness in defending the faith. Enthusiasm, especially in congregational singing. Clearly enunciating the prayers and responses during Mass. Involvement in parish life. Bible studies and prayer groups. Dedicated private study of the Word of God. Private prayer. Hunger for knowledge about Jesus and His Church. Potlucks. Temperance in personal practices (eating, drinking, etc.) Rejection of the practices of shacking up and drunkenness. Faithful attendance at church (Mass). Fellowship–a term I don’t hear much in Catholic churches.

These are all “Protestant practices” that I’m sure orginated in the Catholic Church anyway, but have slipped away over the years and now are often looked down upon by Catholics who think these practices have no place in the Catholic Church. Well, I for one hope the Protestants like me succeed in bringing these practices BACK to the Catholic Church! May the influence of converts continue!

 

[wisdomseeker]

A lot of Protestants have converted to Catholicism. I am one of them. It is inevitable that many of us will bring our practices into our Catholic faith, and if no one in authority tells us that it is wrong or inappropriate, we will continue to do so. We’re not trying to do anything evil. We just don’t realize that it’s wrong or inappropriate, and in many cases, it ISN’T wrong or inappropriate. It’s just not “Catholic.”

I’ll give you an example. It feels very awkward for me to keep my eyes open during prayer–to me, this seems most irreverent. Yet Catholics do it all the time. Praying with open eyes during Mass is “Catholic.”

So after my last foot surgery, I went back to a prayer position that I used in Protestant churches. (I can’t kneel because of a bad knee and because of the surgeries.) I lean forward in my seat (sitting on the edge of my seat) and bury my head in my hands or arms leaning on the pew in front of me. I do NOT keep my eyes open.

When I did this for the first time in a Catholic church, it made me “feel” right and reverent and humble again. Keeping my eyes open just doesn’t “feel” reverent to me. But burying my head in my hands DOES “feel” reverent.

And since Holy Mother Church has NOT ruled that people cannot do my prayer position, I’ll probably keep doing it.

Perhaps other Catholics will see me praying in this way and say, “Hmm, I think I’ll give that a try. It sure would block out extraneous sights like women in scanty clothing and and men in beer t-shirts and children eating goldfish crackers. And it would help to block out extraneous noises like elderly people chatting and cell phones going off. And it would keep me focused on God and not the beautiful church, the hymnal, the windows, what the people are wearing, etc.”

So the Catholic tries this prayer position, likes it, and then other Catholics try it and like it…do you see how Protestant influences can make their way into the Catholic Church? Gradually, with no intention of evil or disruption by the former Protestant.

This is just an example, and hopefully my “influence” is not harmful in any way to the Catholic Church. But I’m sure that other Protestant practices have crept in in exactly the same way, gradually, with no intention of watering down Catholicism, and perhaps some of these practices ARE harmful to Catholicism. And perhaps not.

I personally see nothing wrong with quite a few Protestant influences–e.g., friendliness. Warmth. Welcoming attitude toward newcomers. Assisting newcomers to understand the Church and Christianity. Witnessing in everyday life (evangelism, with or without words). Boldness in defending the faith. Enthusiasm, especially in congregational singing. Clearly enunciating the prayers and responses during Mass. Involvement in parish life. Bible studies and prayer groups. Dedicated private study of the Word of God. Private prayer. Hunger for knowledge about Jesus and His Church. Potlucks. Temperance in personal practices (eating, drinking, etc.) Rejection of the practices of shacking up and drunkenness. Faithful attendance at church (Mass). Fellowship–a term I don’t hear much in Catholic churches.

These are all “Protestant practices” that I’m sure orginated in the Catholic Church anyway, but have slipped away over the years and now are often looked down upon by Catholics who think these practices have no place in the Catholic Church. Well, I for one hope the Protestants like me succeed in bringing these practices BACK to the Catholic Church! May the influence of converts continue!

i dont mean that. i mean the way priests have been behaving in the Church, the songs, and things like that. the Worship has been more like the protestants churches.

 

[Cat]

i dont mean that. i mean the way priests have been behaving in the Church, the songs, and things like that. the Worship has been more like the protestants churches.

And that’s exactly what I was referring to. Music is a great example. A lot of Protestants like myself are used to really good music in church, and we haven’t heard an organ or a classical piece in years. Most of us do not know Latin and we have never heard chant except in horror movies.

We’re also used to volunteering (using our gifts in God’s service, we called it). So we tell Father, “Yes, I’ll be happy to play/sing for Mass.” And when no one directs us in music choice (which happens all too often, since there aren’t a whole of lot Catholics involved with music ministry), we make selections based on our PROTESTANT experiences, songs that are really, really good, but not necessarily traditional Catholic.

And the congregation LIKES these songs and LIKES the way we play/sing them (usually gospel style), and so these songs and our style keep getting sung/played, and eventually they are part of Catholicism.

And the traditionalist recognize that these songs and styles are NOT part of traditional Catholicism and protests their use, but the priest rightfully points out that the various Church documents do NOT forbid different styles of music (unless they are not appropriate to the liturgy–and gospel IS appropriate to the liturgy, because it certainly isn’t a secular style any more than classical is a sacred style).

The priest also rightfully points out that HE is the head of the parish and the one in charge of approving or disapproving the music (with the bishop’s approval), and that he sees nothinig “un-Catholic” about great songs and music that lift the listeners up to the heavenlies and provide a worshipful atmosphere during Mass.

Does all this make sense?

How would you stop it?

Forbid Protestant to get involved with any ministry in the Church for at least five to ten years? Well, that doesn’t seem very practical, especially since I don’t see Catholics lining up to play piano/organ or cantor or lector or do any of the work of the Church.

Insist that Protestants be catechized? Great! That’s what RCIA is supposed to do, along with the 1-year period of mystagogy. Unfortunately, one thing that Catholics are NOT is organized when it comes to catechesis. They seem to have no clue about putting together curricula, getting it written in an understandable way (that means not using Pope Benedict’s Encyclicals as “Basic Training,” since they are written for the reading level of the esoteric intellectual!!), scheduling classes, contacting the students, and enrolling them. Protestants can plan and implement a seminar or a conference in one day, but Catholics muddle and plan and argue and in the end, nothing gets done about catechesis. I think this is something else that Catholics could adapt from Protestant–the ability to educate their people!

It’s a tough call. If you want converts, you have to be ready for them.

It reminds me of the mid-1960s, when the Jesus People and the Jesus Rock music phenomenon started “invading” the Protestant churches. Many churches just kicked them out because of their long hair and hippie clothes. Not a good idea. I would venture to say that many of these Jesus People became the Rick Warrens of today, the non-denominationalists who were hurt by this ousting and who were determined to build churches with no walls and few rules. The churches back then just weren’t prepared to deal with all the “newness.”

 

[PacoG]

Your postings cite the following:

cited:www.olrl.org/doctrine

When I went to the that website, the webpage also contains articles that are completely inapposite to the teaching of the church. One article in particular:

Answers on the Indult Mass (45K) - A lengthy article which clarifies many issues relating to the Indult Mass; points out why we should not attend these Masses.

I will pray for you because you have been led down the path of the heresy of hyper-traditionalism.

Our Lord guaranteed that the gates of hell would never prevail against His Holy Church. All generations have worried about the condition of the Church as the waves of confusion and deceit have battered the Barque of Peter. I trust in the Lord and in his guarantee.

 

[CB_Catholic]

A lot of Protestants have converted to Catholicism. I am one of them. It is inevitable that many of us will bring our practices into our Catholic faith, and if no one in authority tells us that it is wrong or inappropriate, we will continue to do so. We’re not trying to do anything evil. We just don’t realize that it’s wrong or inappropriate, and in many cases, it ISN’T wrong or inappropriate. It’s just not “Catholic.”

I’ll give you an example. It feels very awkward for me to keep my eyes open during prayer–to me, this seems most irreverent. Yet Catholics do it all the time. Praying with open eyes during Mass is “Catholic.”

So after my last foot surgery, I went back to a prayer position that I used in Protestant churches. (I can’t kneel because of a bad knee and because of the surgeries.) I lean forward in my seat (sitting on the edge of my seat) and bury my head in my hands or arms leaning on the pew in front of me. I do NOT keep my eyes open.

When I did this for the first time in a Catholic church, it made me “feel” right and reverent and humble again. Keeping my eyes open just doesn’t “feel” reverent to me. But burying my head in my hands DOES “feel” reverent.

And since Holy Mother Church has NOT ruled that people cannot do my prayer position, I’ll probably keep doing it.

Perhaps other Catholics will see me praying in this way and say, “Hmm, I think I’ll give that a try. It sure would block out extraneous sights like women in scanty clothing and and men in beer t-shirts and children eating goldfish crackers. And it would help to block out extraneous noises like elderly people chatting and cell phones going off. And it would keep me focused on God and not the beautiful church, the hymnal, the windows, what the people are wearing, etc.”

So the Catholic tries this prayer position, likes it, and then other Catholics try it and like it…do you see how Protestant influences can make their way into the Catholic Church? Gradually, with no intention of evil or disruption by the former Protestant.

This is just an example, and hopefully my “influence” is not harmful in any way to the Catholic Church. But I’m sure that other Protestant practices have crept in in exactly the same way, gradually, with no intention of watering down Catholicism, and perhaps some of these practices ARE harmful to Catholicism. And perhaps not.

I personally see nothing wrong with quite a few Protestant influences–e.g., friendliness. Warmth. Welcoming attitude toward newcomers. Assisting newcomers to understand the Church and Christianity. Witnessing in everyday life (evangelism, with or without words). Boldness in defending the faith. Enthusiasm, especially in congregational singing. Clearly enunciating the prayers and responses during Mass. Involvement in parish life. Bible studies and prayer groups. Dedicated private study of the Word of God. Private prayer. Hunger for knowledge about Jesus and His Church. Potlucks. Temperance in personal practices (eating, drinking, etc.) Rejection of the practices of shacking up and drunkenness. Faithful attendance at church (Mass). Fellowship–a term I don’t hear much in Catholic churches.

These are all “Protestant practices” that I’m sure orginated in the Catholic Church anyway, but have slipped away over the years and now are often looked down upon by Catholics who think these practices have no place in the Catholic Church. Well, I for one hope the Protestants like me succeed in bringing these practices BACK to the Catholic Church! May the influence of converts continue!

It must be your particular church, because in mine, people pray with their eyes closed all the time, and the position you describe is seen frequently after they have received the Holy Eucharist, and one which I am accustomed to using, although my knees are on the kneelers. As children, many of us were taught to bury our heads in our hands after receiving the Eucharist, or at least cover our faces with our hands, by the good Sisters who taught us. It is a traditional Catholic posture.

As for the rest of the things you posted, come join my parish. You can go to 3 Bible studies a week, study in a small group, join a book club, work the soup kitchen and food pantry, attend Mass twice a day, say the Rosary, go to a Novena in the evening, Eucharistic Adoration from Friday morning to Saturday morning, visit a prisoner, greet newcomers, eat your heart out, build a house for Habitat for Humanity, evangelize, sing in the choir, and chomp on donuts after Mass. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. You can even hang your coat on a coat rack. I guarantee you will feel welcome.

 

[a_cermak]

I believe the clown mass was Episcopalian, not Catholic, so I’m pretty sure you can’t blame that on the charismatic renewal in the Catholic Church.

I used to attend Charismatic Catholic masses at Loyola led by Fr. Mitchell Pacwa when I was a student (and Catholic). He certainly was never heretical (at least at the time, I don’t know what he’s up to since then.)

I believe the charismatic simply refers to the fact that this movement does not believe that the charisms mentioned in the book of Acts died off with the Apostles. So that healing, speaking in tongues, etc. can still be done by Christians today if they’ve received the Spirit. I don’t see where that would disagree with Catholic theology as their book of Acts is identical to the Protestant book of Acts.

 

[Cat]

It must be your particular church, because in mine, people pray with their eyes closed all the time, and the position you describe is seen frequently after they have received the Holy Eucharist, and one which I am accustomed to using, although my knees are on the kneelers. As children, many of us were taught to bury our heads in our hands after receiving the Eucharist, or at least cover our faces with our hands, by the good Sisters who taught us. It is a traditional Catholic posture.

As for the rest of the things you posted, come join my parish. You can go to 3 Bible studies a week, study in a small group, join a book club, work the soup kitchen and food pantry, attend Mass twice a day, say the Rosary, go to a Novena in the evening, Eucharistic Adoration from Friday morning to Saturday morning, visit a prisoner, greet newcomers, eat your heart out, build a house for Habitat for Humanity, evangelize, sing in the choir, and chomp on donuts after Mass. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. You can even hang your coat on a coat rack. I guarantee you will feel welcome.

Thank you, but we have a wonderful parish that does all of these things (we have a Perpetual Adoration Chapel). And coat racks! I wasn’t complaining about my parish, heavens no! I am so blessed!

I was only using the example of prayer position as an example to demonstrate how someone’s practice can become established in a larger group.

To a certain extent, this can be used to restore traditional practices, too. E.g., beating the breast during the Confiteor. If one person does it, perhaps others will do it and it will spread. Or praying quietly before Mass instead of chatting. Or bowing during the Creed (the Incarnation sentence). All of these traditions could be restored if the faithful continue to do them and others imitate. There need be no complaints or letters to the priest or simmering with resentment.

Perhaps the position of prayer with eyes open is a regional thing? I certainly do not doubt the deep faith and reverence of those who pray with eyes open–they’re probably just caught up in adoration of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament (reposing in the Tabernacle).