Have you been born again?

[paul_c]

From another perspective, it’s extremely easy.

You simply abdicate your personal responsibility for your spiritual decisions in favor of doing/believing whatever the Church tells you.

You put the eternal status of your soul into the hands of a group of men who, while they claim to be infallible in this area, also admit to writing the book that justifies this claim and also admit to being far from saints in their own personal lives.
(Yes, I know the claim is that the Holy Spirit inspired inerrant scripture - but that falls back to being a claim made by a group of imperfect men again).

“I was only doing/believing what I was told” isn’t going wash at the Judgement you’re expecting.

I’m not suggesting anyone leave the Church, but do maintain an awareness of personal responsibility for your spiritual life.

People need to be careful not to confuse humility with abdication of personal responsibility.
We also need to be careful not to confuse superficial individualism with acceptance of personal responsibility.

Actually, Anon, Catholics are more about personal responsibility than most of our Reformed/Born again Breathren. After all, isn’t the Typical Born Again mantra that Jesus died for our past,current, and future sins and that upon Faith, we are saved for all time, regardless of what we do in our lives? Don’t most Protestants believe in Sola fide and OSAS? And don’t they scoff at Catholics, who are trying to work on their sanctification, as trying to “earn” their salvation.

Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that after being saved initially by grace by Faith, in Baptism, that we need to stay in the state of Grace. This means we need to do God’s will and if we fail to do so, we need to be reconciled through confession and repentence in the sacrament of reconciliation. This means every Catholic is accutely aware that they have full personal responsibility for their own salvation, by virtue of what we do or don’t do in life. Sure, we are obdient to the teachings of the church, but we are also responsible for our actions.

You on the other hand, are responsible for your own beliefs but have abdicated responsibility for your actions, relying instead on Christ’s mercy. To a Catholic this is proposterous because it implies that you can make up your own truth while being actually responsible for nothing that you do for your salvation.

 

[tmac1956]

snip…I may have to start a new thread on this- something about Jesus’ One True Universal Worldwide Church. Where do you think it should go?

www.carm.org

 

[graceandglory]

Actually, Anon, Catholics are more about personal responsibility than most of our Reformed/Born again Breathren. After all, isn’t the Typical Born Again mantra that Jesus died for our past,current, and future sins and that upon Faith, we are saved for all time, regardless of what we do in our lives? Don’t most Protestants believe in Sola fide and OSAS? And don’t they scoff at Catholics, who are trying to work on their sanctification, as trying to “earn” their salvation.

Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that after being saved initially by grace by Faith, in Baptism, that we need to stay in the state of Grace. This means we need to do God’s will and if we fail to do so, we need to be reconciled through confession and repentance in the sacrament of reconciliation. This means every Catholic is acutely aware that they have full personal responsibility for their own salvation, by virtue of what we do or don’t do in life. Sure, we are obedient to the teachings of the church, but we are also responsible for our actions.

You on the other hand, are responsible for your own beliefs but have abdicated responsibility for your actions, relying instead on Christ’s mercy. To a Catholic this is preposterous because it implies that you can make up your own truth while being actually responsible for nothing that you do for your salvation.

Excellent explanation.

 

[anon5216]

I agree that we are personnally responsible … However, when Paul C. wrote being humble and submitting to the Chruch he also meant [IMHO - sorry Paul C if I mis-undertand] that the submission was primarily to Christ … Christ founded the Church … Christ guides the Chruch - you may disagree but the free for all of various beliefs - in the fractured church today gives testimony …

In the current day and age of “individualism” …[This is just one example] where some individuals hold that abortion is a grave moral evil and others that it is an acceptable and laudable “choice” … then “humbly submitting” becomes an exercise in personal opinion or relative morality …

Don’t like what this church teaches about the state of one’s soul … find one that fits your model … how is that for submission … humble or bold … submission it is not … moral relativism …

So the answer to “Have you been born again?” becomes yes, [according to my current definition], yes - absolutely …

I agree that looking for a church that doesn’t require anything you’re not willing to agree with for that reason alone, is not being spiritually sincere.
As well, such a person would not be taking personal responsibility for their spiritual life, since they’re just looking for some church to approve of their lifestyle.

I would have to say that the Catholic Church itself is not immune from moral relativism however, as the periodic scandals through the centuries, and especially the response to those scandals, has demonstrated.

 

[anon5216]

Ah. But you see. We all do this. Every last one of us Christians. You do it. So do I. Don’t believe me? Prove to me that you learned everything FIRST from your Bible. You did not. You learned from humans, my friend. We all did.

To be honest, I don’t believe the Bible is the inerrant “Word of God”. I believe it is a collection of writings by fallible humans - some more inspired than others.
I also appreciate scriptures of completely non-Christian spiritual traditions - again without defining any of it as inerrant and dictated by God. So yes, we all learn from humans.

You didn’t pick up your Bible one day, devoid of any prior human catechetical influence, and just divinely come up with truths as postulated within Scripture. We ALL frame our reading of Scripture around various teachings of human beings. We don’t first read Scripture, figure out what’s true, then latch onto groups who think and teach likewise. Just the opposite is true. We all get taught something, determine that it sounds true, gradually place our trust in it, then latch onto Scripture inasmuch as it supports the human teaching. No one ever has done it any other way.

OK, that sounds reasonable, but do all Catholics really function that way, or do a large percentage simply never do serious questioning and study and just go along and accept?
I expect that many more people participating in these forums actually do their spiritual “homework” than the general social Catholic, but …

So, here’s the real question then. Since we all do it this way, it becomes obvious it IS the way it was meant to be done…but there is a quandary that presents itself, given the diversity of belief, and given that there is only ONE Truth, not many…Therefore, many groups of “teachers” are wrong (or only “partially” right), and are not authentic, Holy-Spirit guided shepherds of the Truth…and it follows that, in fact, only ONE group is authentic, “sent” by Christ, and maintains the FULLNESS of the entire Truth.

Your logic doesn’t follow at all. Truth is not some set of sentences in a book, and no book of any faith can be proven to be dictated by the Holy Spirit. This is all just claims by fallible humans and/or wishful thinking.

Our position, as the faithful, therefore, is to find where this authentic authority resides, and how we become sheep of the flock it gathers and leads unto Christ. Before the Reformation, this was quite simple. Since then, not so simple. Quite difficult, in fact.

It was not simple even before the because the Church has never proven its claims by any other means than using its own writings and assertions. Circular logic can never be a valid proof of anything.

This is why I am Catholic. I do not abdicate my personal responsibility in the least. On the contrary, my personal responsibility is to find the Truth from authentic teachers, humble myself unto it (which is equivalent to humbling myself before the Lord, since it is He who made it so), and live my life responsibly in accord with the teachings of this Christ-appointed Church. This “abdication of responsibility” argument is an insult to any Christian, Catholic or not, for it can be argued that everyone allows what they are taught to run their lives for them. It’s a weak argument, and belittles the commitment to Christ of all the faithful.

God Bless

Every case is different. You sound like you did your research and came to a personal responsibility conclusion to accept the Catholic path and the Church’s authority.
That I can totally respect.

However, the abdication of responsibility argument does apply to many - not just Christians, but Buddhists and Hindus and Muslims, etc. equally as well.
What vast quantities of people have, is a weak argument for their commitment to whatever religious path they’re affiliated with.

 

[anon5216]

Actually, Anon, Catholics are more about personal responsibility than most of our Reformed/Born again Breathren. After all, isn’t the Typical Born Again mantra that Jesus died for our past,current, and future sins and that upon Faith, we are saved for all time, regardless of what we do in our lives? Don’t most Protestants believe in Sola fide and OSAS? And don’t they scoff at Catholics, who are trying to work on their sanctification, as trying to “earn” their salvation.

I agree with you on the “Born Again mantra” entirely. I also agree about some Catholics actually working on their sanctification.
However, I have not met that many Catholics personally (not just via web forums) who really do that.

Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that after being saved initially by grace by Faith, in Baptism, that we need to stay in the state of Grace. This means we need to do God’s will and if we fail to do so, we need to be reconciled through confession and repentence in the sacrament of reconciliation. This means every Catholic is accutely aware that they have full personal responsibility for their own salvation, by virtue of what we do or don’t do in life. Sure, we are obdient to the teachings of the church, but we are also responsible for our actions.

Here I have to disagree about “every Catholic being acutely aware of their full personal responsibility for their own salvation”.

You on the other hand, are responsible for your own beliefs but have abdicated responsibility for your actions, relying instead on Christ’s mercy. To a Catholic this is proposterous because it implies that you can make up your own truth while being actually responsible for nothing that you do for your salvation.

No. I’m not one of those “Born Again” Christians.
Although I was raised Catholic, I currently do not identify myself as Christian, and don’t belong to any religious organization of any type.

I have not abdicated responsibility for my actions and do not rely on Christ’s mercy in the manner of many non-Catholic Christians.
I am not just making up my own truth, but also do not accept the Catholic Church’s claims of infallibility and inerrancy of the Bible.
To be honest, various aspects of Indian spirituality seem far more advanced to me than Catholic mythology.

That being said, I do not believe it is a false religion. I do appreciate the spiritual greatness of saints like Padre Pio, etc., and do believe someone like you can work out their salvation via the Catholic path.

 

[paul_c]

I agree with you on the “Born Again mantra” entirely. I also agree about some Catholics actually working on their sanctification.
However, I have not met that many Catholics personally (not just via web forums) who really do that.

Here I have to disagree about “every Catholic being acutely aware of their full personal responsibility for their own salvation”.

No. I’m not one of those “Born Again” Christians.
Although I was raised Catholic, I currently do not identify myself as Christian, and don’t belong to any religious organization of any type.

I have not abdicated responsibility for my actions and do not rely on Christ’s mercy in the manner of many non-Catholic Christians.
I am not just making up my own truth, but also do not accept the Catholic Church’s claims of infallibility and inerrancy of the Bible.
To be honest, various aspects of Indian spirituality seem far more advanced to me than Catholic mythology.

That being said, I do not believe it is a false religion. I do appreciate the spiritual greatness of saints like Padre Pio, etc., and do believe someone like you can work out their salvation via the Catholic path.

I’m sorry that I misunderstood your perspective for that of a born-again. Thanks for clarifying. And yes, there are a significant number of Catholics that are Catholics in name only, who do not really understand or practice their faith. It distresses me that this is the case. All I can do, is try to educate those I come into contact with.

There is great power through love for those who truly practice the Catholic faith. I am pleased that you are here on this forum. Perhaps you will be open to that love and rejoin the faith as you learn more about it. I am encouraged by the fact that you recognize the spiritual greatness of Padre Pio. Start with that and learn why he believed in the teachings of the Catholic Faith and what he said about it. I think you will find it enlightening.

God Bless.

 

[SteveGC]

Anon, I’m picking out a few things you said in your reply to me…

yes, we all learn from humans.

Truth is not some set of sentences in a book, and no book of any faith can be proven to be dictated by the Holy Spirit. This is all just claims by fallible humans and/or wishful thinking.

… the Church has never proven its claims by any other means than using its own writings and assertions. Circular logic can never be a valid proof of anything.

What vast quantities of people have, is a weak argument for their commitment to whatever religious path they’re affiliated with.

Sorry, I also made a presumption that you hailed from the non-Catholic Christian camp which professes Bible-only and once saved…etc.

To reply to the quotes of your statements above, I just really wanted to say a couple things.

I did not mean to imply that the Truth is some sentences in a book. The Bible, in Christian faith, DOES contain the true teachings of Christ. And Christ Himself, is The Truth. (The Truth is not a something, it is a someBODY). The Bible tells a good portion of the story and teachings of this Truth. The oral teachings passed down through the ages compliments those things written down in the Bible. You may already know all this, as a former Catholic. But I just wanted to clarify.

Lastly, in your quest for Truth, you will be hard pressed to find any hard evidence which compels you, on it’s own, to entrust your soul to it. If you need some other spiritual path to give you some credible, non-biased, non-circular rationale for its validity, you’ll forever be wandering. You do atleast, appear to be a theist, recognizing and accepting the existence of God. Hopefully you also recognize that truth is an objective singularity, not a subjective plurality (i.e. there is but ONE truth out there). And so, I will also say…

Christianity actually offers some quite compelling historical “evidence” of it’s authenticity. I’m no expert in where to send you to see this for yourself, but suffice it to say that there are credible, non-biased accounts of not only Jesus’ existence, and His death and resurrection…but also of His miracles performed on earth, and most notably, the vast amounts of authentic prophetic writings from scattered, unrelated civilizations, all anticipating the arrival of a single, Messiah - characterized in all of these writings in the same way.

All that being said, you should realize that to a very large extent, faith precedes reason. For someone seeking any reasonable spiritual path for themselves, some portion of reason may be necessary, but ultimately it is faith which leads to understanding, and conviction that what you place your trust in, is in fact, the Truth.

God Bless you on your search for Him