Have you encountered a problem with lack of Advent in Protestant churches?

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LindaSK

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I have been a church musician forever - both piano/organ and vocal. I came into the Catholic Church Easter Vigil 2007. I was playing in a Methodist Church at the time. The pastor did not have a problem with my conversion, but, some of the members did. My most recent membership had been in a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.I began life in a union church - Evangelical Lutheran/UCC. In the Lutheran and UCC Churches, Christmas was Christmas and Advent was Advent. I was asked to fill in for an organist at a Mass, which began my journey Home, to make a long story short!

Anyway, I still play for Mass, but I recently started playing in another Methodist Church. I questioned their using ‘Angels from the Realms of Glory’ the 2nd week of Advent, then, ‘O Little Town of Bethlehem’ last Sunday. The pastor pretty much told me I had no right imposing my Catholic values on their church. She (yes, I struggle with that, too) later apologized for her remark and hoped I wasn’t offended. I was upset, but didn’t say anything at the time. I gave her this:
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The Intrusion of Christmas. Advent is a season rich in tradition, symbolism, art, music, and liturgical practice. It has its own unique themes as well as those that point the way to Christmas. And yet, we annually confront the pressures and questions of “Why can’t we put up the Christmas tree in the sanctuary on the first Sunday of Advent?” and “Why can’t we sing Christmas carols in early December?” The answer, of course, is that doing so allows Christmas to intrude. It allows the themes, practices, spirituality, history, traditions, symbols, art, and music of one season to displace those of another. We lose the richness and the benefit of experiencing the promise, longing, hope, and expectation of Advent. The world, television, and shopping malls have done all they can to convince us that Advent does not matter — it has no place in our culture — and many of us have come to accept that for our church, as well. Our faith teaches us something very different.
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• • • •

Dean McIntyre (dmcintyre@gbod.org) is the **Director of Music Resources for The United Methodist General Board of Discipleship **

I told her Advent was not a Catholic ‘invention’, that it was observed in the other Protestant churches I had played for. She then informed me that I would not be happy about this Sunday - today. The children are putting on a pageant complete with wisemen and baby Jesus, with the singing of FIVE Christmas carols AND ‘O Holy Night’.

I suggested they celebrate Advent instead and do the Christmas pageant Christmas Eve or the following Sunday - during the CHRISTMAS season!

I got this:
*— On Mon, 12/14/09, Joy wrote:
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Linda,
 
    After prayerful consideration, I will be presenting the nativity with the children on Sunday; because this is when the children will be in worship.  I did go back to look at previous years' bulletins, and it has been the practice of this congregation to sing Christmas hymns/songs during Advent.
    I am attaching a copy of a revised bulletin, because of a couple of changes at the end of the service.  We are not singing "Joy to the World" as the final hymn, and Joyce Taylor will be singing "O Holy Night" after the lighting of the Advent candle.
 
Thank you,
Pastor Joy
Prayerful consideration shouldn’t involve looking at past years’ bulletins!! Anyway, I reponded…

*To:
"Joy
Since they are already singing Christmas carols Sunday, couldn’t we at least PLEASE save ‘O Holy Night’ for Christmas Eve since both Joyce and Tom will be there that night? It certainly makes more sense, and the choir is only singing one anthem on Christmas Eve.

Linda
*

This was ignored!

Do I have a right to be at least a little upset by this, or am I overreacting?? I have always in the past felt like I was participating in worship in a Christian Church - in an ecumenical sense. Now I feel like I am just a hired musician. I should be asleep. I do play for a Mass after this service. I am grateful for that! I guess in 6 1/2 hours it will be over, but it just feels so wrong. Sorry for being so long-winded! Do I just try to get them to do better next year? Oh, the church was also decorated full-blown Christmas the first Sunday of Advent.
 
\Now I feel like I am just a hired musician.\

**But that’s exactly all you are! Didn’t you realize that?

Even in an Episcopal Church, you’d be just the hired help.

She’s the pastor. She’s the boss. That’s all there is to it.**
 
I guess it’s just that my (name removed by moderator)ut always mattered before. I either chose the hymns based upon the scripture readings or worked with the pastor to plan services/Masses. I truly feel ‘put in my place’. For the first time, it doesn’t feel like a music ministry, but a job. In all my years and in all the churches I’ve played in, I have never felt this way. And I feel like I’m cooperating in liturgy that is really wrong. When I started here, I had asked this new pastor how she felt about observing Advent as such. She led me to believe she would observe it appropriately. She and her husband even choose to go to Mass when they vacation in Canada. So, I am am disappointed and upset by this. The world does Advent badly. Christian churches should feel obligated to get it right, beginning with their pastor.
 
Maybe this pastor will celebrate Easter next December too.

The point is, as great as an organist you may be, you’re just the hired help to her. And I’m sorry for that. They are not a Catholic Church. If it helps, think of it as just a job at a party, or at a bar. And the patrons want to hear Christmas music. Even if its in July. That is if you want “bread in your jar”. [Sorry for the Billy Joel “Piano Man” quote.]

:p:shrug:
 
I was a Protestant (evangelical) for 47 years before becoming Catholic in 2004.

We never celebrated Advent as I was growing up in the Conference Baptist churches.

I saw an Advent wreath for the first time in the 1980s at a Christian and Missionary Alliance (evangelical Protestant) church in North Carolina.

Other than that, I never saw Advent celebrated.

I think that some evangelical churches have glommed onto Advent, just as they have glommed onto other “traditional” Christian practices; e.g., candles, contemplative prayer, silence, Gregorian chant, Rosary (ecumenical, using Our Fathers instead of Hail Mary, and meditating the Life of Jesus), even Confession/Reconciliation.

It’s “cool” nowadays to use “traditional” practices in evangelical Protestant churches. The critics are very vocal, though, claiming that these idolatrous or “Catholic” practices are “works of man” and therefore have no place in Christian churches and will put Christians “at risk” for “getting on the Road to Rome.”

I had relatives in more traditional Protestant churches (Methodist, Reformed, Lutheran)_, and I knew that they celebrated a “church calendar.” But I didn’t know anything about it.
 
Hi Linda,

Just an observation from a Protestant guy who is now thinking very carefully about becoming a Catholic after 23 yrs w/my Catholic wife.

I grew up in the Reformed Church - RCA - We had Advent every Christmas season too…the candle lighting, the readings, the tree…the music…the children’s programs etc etc…The Christmas season always lasted several weeks into the new year in terms of music & decorations too…even though it started a little earlier in it’s full blown state.

Some of the Music I learned to enjoy…the incredible hymn’s, the choirs…the solos & special music presentations…contata’s, musicians - piano, violins, horns, etc were awsome…and my heart aches missing this kind of old world tradtional musical worship experience.

I have sat quietly by for years while my wife’s church’s musical taste is all new age, fast paced songs written w/ in the last 20 years…that ( in the four CC’s we have attended during the our marriage anyway) no one even tries to sing along with. The people just stare ahead & wait for the song to be over…maybe one or two hymns at Easter & Christmas…like 3 or 4 songs a year of tradtional music are ever included. When they do use these songs…THE PEOPLE SING & SMILE & GET INVOLVED IN THE MUSIC…It’s just amazing to me why the CC uses all this new age music that no responds to…in light of the fact that there are alternatives available.

anyway, please consider…

Protestant’s mean no disrespect to tradition…no disregard for something that we were “suposed” to be doing…It just happens that as part of the coarse of our worship to God…we do a few things differently…really not a big deal - just different - like I have learned to endure all the up beat conteporary snare drums & electric guitar #'s.

This music works to bring the congregation together in song and worship, to be ready to celibrate Christmas…Not unlike the Catholic church does…but just in a different way…
Please don’t judge them wrong…for something that is just different, I doubt God is angry some church sang the wrong song at the wrong time of the year…& is marking this down in his book of mistakes made here on earth for review once we all get to heaven.

I have been discovering the other side of the same coin w/ respect to the CC’s teachings left and right lately. What we think we know is not always the case…just our expierience & training…

Merry Christmas…

Mike
 
LindaSK said:
I have been a church musician forever - both piano/organ and vocal. I came into the Catholic Church Easter Vigil 2007. I was playing in a Methodist Church at the time. The pastor did not have a problem with my conversion, but, some of the members did. My most recent membership had been in a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church.I began life in a union church - Evangelical Lutheran/UCC. In the Lutheran and UCC Churches, Christmas was Christmas and Advent was Advent. I was asked to fill in for an organist at a Mass, which began my journey Home, to make a long story short!

Anyway, I still play for Mass, but I recently started playing in another Methodist Church. I questioned their using ‘Angels from the Realms of Glory’ the 2nd week of Advent, then, ‘O Little Town of Bethlehem’ last Sunday. The pastor pretty much told me I had no right imposing my Catholic values on their church. She (yes, I struggle with that, too) later apologized for her remark and hoped I wasn’t offended. I was upset, but didn’t say anything at the time.

…

Do I have a right to be at least a little upset by this, or am I overreacting?? I have always in the past felt like I was participating in worship in a Christian Church - in an ecumenical sense. Now I feel like I am just a hired musician. I should be asleep. I do play for a Mass after this service. I am grateful for that! I guess in 6 1/2 hours it will be over, but it just feels so wrong. Sorry for being so long-winded! Do I just try to get them to do better next year? Oh, the church was also decorated full-blown Christmas the first Sunday of Advent.
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As a musician your opinion in this matter should be taken seriously. It is your duty to speak up when something appears out of order. Whether og not your advice is followed or not is another matter, though. This is the priest/pastor to decide.

I’m a Lutheran, from Norway, so I don’t have the slightest idea about how they do things in an American Methodist church. But I agree with you. And I also think you should take a look at your contract with the Methodist congregation and/or their rules/laws to see what you as a musician are responsible for (choice of music etc).

I recognise the problem where churches increasingly forget the difference between Advent and Christmas and mix them together. I think it’s important that you let them know, no matter what the outcome is.
 
Taking it from a business point of view, rather than religious, the boss is the one in charge. It is her prerogative and duty to define what message the liturgy is to convey. As staff support it is your function to advise her what music will best convey that message, but the final decision is hers. If you can do it without violating your conscience then do so; otherwise you must seek a more acceptable position.

Again, this is strictly from a managerial point of view. My wife has played for other churches, mostly Episcopalian, without problem, but I haven’t followed the details. The Episcopal and Lutheran liturgies are close enough to Catholic that I wouldn’t foresee a conflict.
 
I’m afraid that I do not agree with Frost, -with all respect-. As a couple of people said: “You are a hired musician”. I think it’s important to respect their ways, and in doing so, in return they will respect you. When I came into the Catholic Church from Orthodoxy, there was (in my opinion) so much that I wanted to teach about reverance etc. that I felt could be learnt. I still feel that in some areas. People generally feel uneasy about someone telling them what they’re doing wrong, even IF you may know more than them in certain areas, -like music. I currently am singing with a good (and large) choir. Occasionly, I know that the conductor is wrong (I have yrs of experience), but most of the time I don’t say anything. The Holy Spirit knows how to help us move carefully, cautiously, and slowly in such matters, and I try to listen and follow His guidance. Your zeal is admirable, but… Best to you.
 
Joseph629 said:
I’m afraid that I do not agree with Frost, -with all respect-. As a couple of people said: “You are a hired musician”. I think it’s important to respect their ways, and in doing so, in return they will respect you. When I came into the Catholic Church from Orthodoxy, there was (in my opinion) so much that I wanted to teach about reverance etc. that I felt could be learnt. I still feel that in some areas. People generally feel uneasy about someone telling them what they’re doing wrong, even IF you may know more than them in certain areas, -like music. I currently am singing with a good (and large) choir. Occasionly, I know that the conductor is wrong (I have yrs of experience), but most of the time I don’t say anything. The Holy Spirit knows how to help us move carefully, cautiously, and slowly in such matters, and I try to listen and follow His guidance. Your zeal is admirable, but… Best to you.
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It has nothing to do with disrespect to other people’s ways og being arrogant because one knows better. As I said, the musician must look at his/hers contract and role within the congregation. Does it open for active participation? If it does, then the musician should let his/hers voice be heard - in a respectable manner, of course.

And as to your conductor-example: If I were that conductor, I would appreciate help given carefully and respectfully.

Please don’t think that all criticism is negative. When it comes to your job, letting people know of your professional opinion is your duty. It is also your duty to do it respectfully - and to accept your superiors decision.
 
I thank you all for your comments - a lot of truth there. For my part, I’m glad this morning is over!!! The pastor at the Methodist Church never spoke to me. She knew this was upsetting to me - to be completely disregarded in everything - literally, EVERYTHING! - I suggested regarding the liturgical season of Advent, especially, this Sunday. While compromise is a good thing, feeling compromised doesn’t set well.

I felt really bad. I got to the church at the last minute, and left for Mass as soon as I could get out of there! They got my best effort in between, but my heart truly wasn’t in it. My prelude, offertory and postlude were all Advent music, so, in that regard, I stayed true to my Faith, but I really feel like they all missed out on the anticipation the Advent season is meant to foster as Christmas approaches.

The pastor didn’t even robe. She was wearing a Christmas-y sweater outfit. The bulletin read, ‘O Come, O Come, Emmanuel’. In her ‘children’s message’, she asked how many days until Christmas. The right answer which she expected was 5. Then, from there, they were dismissed to dress for the Nativity pageant! They proceeded to read the Christmas narrative from Luke, and sang multiple verses of 5 popular carols. They even had wisemen and sang ‘We Three Kings’. Then, they lit the last Advent candle, and topped it off with the singing of ‘O Holy Night’! It was done with guitar, so I really had nothing to do with it. I will play a nice arrangement of it on Christmas Eve. So, other than lighting some candles for the candlelight service Christmas Eve, they’ve already had Christmas - from the readings to the music to the pageant and the decorations. I’m sure many now won’t feel the need to bother to come Thursday night, especially families who had kids in the pageant today.

On the plus side of my day, after my heart stopped pounding, Mass went well and I was especially grateful to be participating in that! It took a few extra settling prayers beforehand! Afterwards, I helped decorate our church for Christmas. That was fun! All things in their time. Things like this serve to further convince me that I am where I belong, that I really have come home.

So, thank you again. This has been eye-opening for me.

May you all have a blessed Christmas, while still enjoying these last few days of Advent, of anticipation and spiritual preparation for the coming of our Savior. I play for a Penance Service tomorrow night. It helps keep priorities in order.

Dona nobis pacem!
 
Hmmm. Sounds like there’s a real power struggle going on here. Pride to the degree that it seems to have gotten past the healthy self-esteem level.

Um… do you think Jesus prefers that this is happening? Is there anything you could do differently to disarm the tension?

You could think of it this way.

If the issues you’re having were with the priest at your Catholic parish, what would you do?

The pastor of that non-Catholic Christian church has got the same role as the Catholic priest at your own church.

She’s practicing and leading according to her perception of what this timeline is about. It’s not like she’s teaching a heresy against Christianity, itself. Advent is a traditional method of recognizing the timeline before Christmas Day. And that’s all it is.

I suggest that you might want to consider that your preferences in HOW to do your music ministry at that church are just that… yours. She’s the boss.

Like the priest who’s the pastor at the Catholic church you attend is the boss.

Just do what you can. I’m not so sure that you’re winning her over or convincing her of your point of view, professional as it may be.

You’ve told her how you consider things should be. She’s heard you. Declined to agree with you.

Then, you tell her again how you consider things should be. She’s heard you, again. She has again declined to agree with you.

I’d say let it roll. Do the job she’s paying you to do. And then let it go.

Otherwise, I fear that you’re agreeing at some level to keep yourself in a “near occasion of sin.” Pride is sneaky that way.

And this isn’t even a situation that you’re being called to “instruct the ignorant.” That “instruct the ignorant” has to do with matters of faith. Not a matter of devout practice, as Advent is.

If you’re having the cold pricklies doing the job at that non-Catholic Christian church that doesn’t practice the same traditions as the Catholic Church does… then that’s just an indication that the Catholic Church and other Christian churches do some things differently when it comes to such traditions.

By the way, sometimes I have had to perform my job differently than I know was the way that I as the expert was specifically hired to do. The boss decided that she knew better than me for how I was to do my job. I respectfully told her that what she said is EXACTLY the wrong thing… that I’d been hired by her predecessor to do exactly what I was doing. She had an issue with that. I wound up having to un-do almost a year’s worth of work just to meet her requirements. It comes down to this – sometimes you just have to do what they’ve paid you to do. And nothing more.
 
VeronicaAnne said:
Hmmm. Sounds like there’s a real power struggle going on here. Pride to the degree that it seems to have gotten past the healthy self-esteem level.

Um… do you think Jesus prefers that this is happening? ** Is there anything you could do differently to disarm the tension?**

You could think of it this way.

If the issues you’re having were with the priest at your Catholic parish, what would you do?

The pastor of that non-Catholic Christian church has got the same role as the Catholic priest at your own church.
She’s practicing and leading according to her perception of what this timeline is about. It’s not like she’s teaching a heresy against Christianity, itself. ** Advent is a traditional method of recognizing the timeline before Christmas Day. **** And that’s all it is.
**
I suggest that you might want to consider that your preferences in HOW to do your music ministry at that church are just that… yours. She’s the boss.

Like the priest who’s the pastor at the Catholic church you attend is the boss.

Just do what you can. I’m not so sure that you’re winning her over or convincing her of your point of view, professional as it may be.

You’ve told her how you consider things should be. She’s heard you. Declined to agree with you.

Then, you tell her again how you consider things should be. She’s heard you, again. She has again declined to agree with you.

I’d say let it roll. Do the job she’s paying you to do. And then let it go.
**
Otherwise, I fear that you’re agreeing at some level to keep yourself in a “near occasion of sin.” Pride is sneaky that way. **
**
And this isn’t even a situation that you’re being called to “instruct the ignorant.” That “instruct the ignorant” has to do with matters of faith. Not a matter of devout practice, as Advent is.**

If you’re having the cold pricklies doing the job at that non-Catholic Christian church that doesn’t practice the same traditions as the Catholic Church does… then that’s just an indication that the Catholic Church and other Christian churches do some things differently when it comes to such traditions.

By the way, sometimes I have had to perform my job differently than I know was the way that I as the expert was specifically hired to do. The boss decided that she knew better than me for how I was to do my job. I respectfully told her that what she said is EXACTLY the wrong thing… that I’d been hired by her predecessor to do exactly what I was doing. She had an issue with that. I wound up having to un-do almost a year’s worth of work just to meet her requirements. ** It comes down to this – sometimes you just have to do what they’ve paid you to do. And nothing more.**
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I had to take some time to think about this before I replied. I JUST got the Methodist pastor’s bulletin for Dec. 27. The hymns are not all Christmas and it is certainly still the Christmas season. At about the same time I was looking at her bulletin, I heard on EWTN, “If we don’t know how to wait for Christmas, we won’t know how to celebrate it properly when it comes.” What I witnessed in this Methodist church exemplifies this remark. As I said before, the world gets it wrong, but Christian churches should get it right.

** Is there anything you could do differently to disarm the tension?** Well, I tried talking with her. Having her tell me I had no right to try to impose my Catholic values was, I thought, inappropriate on her part. Advent is not a Catholic novelty! So, I came and went yesterday and just did my ‘job.’

If the issues you’re having were with the priest at your Catholic parish, what would you do? I do exactly the same thing with my priest. I present my question - of course, this wouldn’t even come up. Advent IS Advent and Christmas IS Christmas. But, we did just make a change at Mass. We discussed it, tried it, and we were both happy with the results. We work together. He never just dismisses me. The musicians choose the music, not the priest, according to the readings and the liturgical season. At this Methodist Church, there is no cooperation. The pastor chooses the hymns and the liturgy. So, what works in settling ‘issues’ with my priest doesn’t work with this pastor.

** Advent is a traditional method of recognizing the timeline before Christmas Day. **** And that’s all it is. **
** And this isn’t even a situation that you’re being called to “instruct the ignorant.” That “instruct the ignorant” has to do with matters of faith. Not a matter of devout practice, as Advent is.** I disagree with you here. The first Sunday of Advent is New Year’s Day, as it were, for Christians, not just Catholics, as it is the beginning of the liturgical year. Just as churches don’t sing Easter hymns and use the Easter liturgies during Lent, the same attention should be paid to distinguish between Advent and Christmas IN CHRISTIAN CHURCHES. What the stores TV, radio, etc. do is out of our control pretty much. But, a pastor should be a teacher and a proper leader. The easy way out it just to follow the culture.

**
Otherwise, I fear that you’re agreeing at some level to keep yourself in a “near occasion of sin.” Pride is sneaky that way. ** I’m still thinking about this! I’ve just been to confession! I hoped to enter Christmas with a clean slate, so to speak.

** It comes down to this – sometimes you just have to do what they’ve paid you to do. And nothing more.** In all my years and in all my experiences, I once found myself in a somewhat similar position. I was teaching music in a ‘Christian’ school. Things were going on that didn’t seem very Christian. I, along with quite a number of others, chose to leave as a matter of principle. It was certainly not about pride! I guess I would have the same option here.

Thank you for your insight. Merry Christmas - in 4 days!!
 
Coming from a Catholic background, I found it difficult to not observe Lent and Advent in our current church. However, this year our Pastor suggested we attatch more importance to Advent and it;s significance.As a result we gradually decorated the church. The first Sunday of Advent the only “decoration” was the Advent wreath.As the weeks progressed a few more decorations were added. Yesterday the tree was up and I suspect when we arrive on Thursday evening more will have been added. The music selections also were made to focus on the need to prepare our hearts for the birth of our Lord and Saviour. His sermons also reflected this theme as well.I can say I really felt the true sense of preparing the way for our Saviour’s coming. Merry Christmas to all. God Bless. NLM
 
I was raised in the Methodist Church and back then, our Sunday services resembled in many ways the Episcopal service of Morning Prayer. We did observe Advent, though not with the rigor and vigor of the Episcopal Church. I have been to the successor of the same church, where my mother still attends, and I am amazed at the informality and “happy clappy” attitude toward worship.

Methodism is an offshoot of Anglicanism, and even in the very Low Church times that John Wesley lived in Advent was a definite season of the Church of England, as it has always been, since the first Prayerbook.

So, I would say that Pastor Joy (get used to it!) is a bit of an aberration.
 
The boss is the boss. Nuff said. If you do not like it, get another boss.
 
My in-laws (who are Methodist) were complaining about Advent in their church. They have been singing Advent hymns and doing the Advent thing, and they do not like it one bit. Basically, they have adjusted to the world’s time-table that has the Christmas Season running from at least Thanksgiving to Dec. 26, then ending at once. I tried to explain, but it was no use. They want to sing Christmas songs now, not after Christmas.

Oh well.
 
Remember you are a Catholic playing in a Methodist church. You should respect the way the do things and not try to change it. It would be like a Methodist playing in a Catholic church and telling them they are wrong and this I what I want to play instead. What would the priest say. I don’t think he would say Ya lets do it your way. Or its like a Methodist going to a Catholic church and telling them the way you worship is wrong. That wouldn’t fly with the priest eather. Remember you are a paid musican and a guest in there house of worship. Just because its the way your church does it don’t meaan its the way they need to do it.
 
Growing up in a Methodist church singing Christmas songs before Christmas was pretty much accepted. Never knew anything different. It was only after I became Lutheran did I first hear about Advent and what we didn’t sing then and I was somewhat suprised. So, I wouldn’t be too harsh on them or take it too personal. You do have a point and it sounds like you made it. Your faithful and loving witness could be compromised if you make more of this than has already been made. Pray about this and let the Holy Spirit work- that is always the best way!

Blessings & peace to you. In Christ,
mlz
 
I can only speak for myself, but this Methodist pastor celebrates 4 Sundays of Advent, and Twelve Days of Christmas, beginning December 25th.

If folks want to sing Christmas hymns, why not have an Evensong service? That’s certainly an Anglican and Methodist thing to do. But lets not buy into the world’s rush into Christmas.

It would be helpful if someone would write some more decent Advent hymns, though…
 
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