Have you ever spent a LONG time at the Real Presence (Catholic or Protestant)?

[GKC]

It depends upon the Episcopalian priest, some have bothered getting holy orders. In fact CAF has such a priest (bishop indeed if I remember correctly). As you so eloquantly stated in another thread, the key to being able to confect a host (well the main one as far as protestants go) is having valid holy orders at all. Beyond that yes you need proper form et. al. but if such a priest has bothered getting valid orders then they’re probably also clued into the rest.

How would you suppose an Anglican priest would go about bothering to get valid orders?

GKC

 

[JonNC]

Since I believe the real presence is only there during communion, sitting there while no communion is going to take place would be akin to sitting and looking at unconsecrated hosts. — very little point to it.

I frankly find this expression one that needs caution. Luther himself spoke of outward and inward adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. The stance of the early reformers was more against some of the abuses, such as believing that practicing adoration would bring favor with God.
I see nothing in scripture that leads me to believe that, once consecrated, the true presence of Christ is not there to remain. Afterall, pastors regularly take the consecrated body and blood to sick and shut-ins. And Luther also spoke harshly against mixing consecrated and unconsecrated hosts.
I do not believe that sacramental union means that Christ turns His presence on and off.

EDIT: I might add that even if you are right about the presence of Christ outside the sacramental act, I would not go as far as describing those practicing inward adoration along with outward adoration as “pointless”.
Jon

 

[cheese_sdc]

well, if you could leave after knowing Him like that… i have no idea what to say…

Maybe not say anything, but rather listen.

 

[crazzeto]

How would you suppose an Anglican priest would go about bothering to get valid orders?

GKC

By becoming ordained by a Bishop who has them… In fact, I imagine an anglican priest (at least in romes eyes) may actually even be able to do this after being “ordained” by a Bishop who doesn’t have valid orders (as no valid ordination ever took place).

 

[GKC]

By becoming ordained by a Bishop who has them… In fact, I imagine an anglican priest (at least in romes eyes) may actually even be able to do this after being “ordained” by a Bishop who doesn’t have valid orders (as no valid ordination ever took place).

No, I mean under what circumstances would that happen. Outside the realm of episcopi vagantes.

The point of whether valid orders have been infused into Anglicanism from outside is not related to an individual priest somehow deciding that he might pick up some valid orders, on the way home from grocery shopping, but the fact that bishops possessing valid orders, in Rome’s eyes, have routinely participated, not in the supposed ordination of Anglican priests, here or there, but in the known, regular consecrations of Anglican bishops, starting with Old Catholics, in 1932, following the agreement of Bonn. And, having received valid episcopal lines, these Anglican bishops then dispense them, passing valid orders to all Anglican whom they ordain or consecrate. This is the Dutch Touch scenario and is not part of the consideration of Apostolicae Curae itself.

GKC

 

[PJM]

This has been my experience with Protestants regarding the Lord’s supper. Even though many consider the bread symbolic, or that Jesus is only present upon reception, there is great devotion to Jesus Christ Who died for all.

Years ago, I would bring the Catholic Eucharist to patients in the hospital. If the roommate was not Catholic, I would still pray with the person or include the roommate in some way only if the roommate so desired. I will never forger the Methodist woman who understood the difference between the religions yet shared with me how she longed for a communion worship service. At that time, her particular church did not have regular communion services. Of course, I passed this message on to her pastor and ever since when I meet a Methodist pastor, I tell him or her this woman’s desire because she is not alone.

My point is that when Christians truly understand the message of Christ and why He hung bleeding from a cross, there is a deep desire to be as close to Him as possible. To kiss the thorn torn head. To wash away the dripping blood with tears.

Of course, none of us can go back in time to the actual Crucifixtion. But we should continually love and thank Jesus, ask Him for mercy and for help in the best way we can. It is not my position to evaluate how Christians worship God. All I can do is encourage them to do the best they can in whatever circumstances they are in. It is my position to share the good news of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Catholic Eucharist. To explain that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is an unbloody re-presentation. Beyond that, the individual chooses how to worship Jesus. Active worship of Jesus Christ is essential.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16&17

Well done granny; keep up the Lord’s work.

 

[beth40n2]

Hi

I am actually about leaving the RCC.
But I got again in contact with a fellow student of mine who is a charismatic Catholic.
She took me last week to a (charismatic) adoration and I was amazed how deeply I could feel the Lord there, much more intense than in a Pentecostal or Baptist Service.
I felt as if the hot summer sun would shine on my breast.
It was really amazing.
And I got filled with the Holy Spirit and started recititing Bible Verses (this was btw welcomed) - i even got once the same Bible Verse in my heart than the monk who celebreted the adoration (he told me afterwords).

Esdra

If it wasn’t for Charismatic prayer groups and the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, I probably would not come home to the RCC. I was Pentecostal, then married a United Methodist, but was frustrated in that church. Now I am home for good. Our prayer group has good praise and worship music, praying for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and more. But we have adoration in front of the exposed Blessed Sacrament often. What a blessing.

 

[crazzeto]

No, I mean under what circumstances would that happen. Outside the realm of episcopi vagantes.

The point of whether valid orders have been infused into Anglicanism from outside is not related to an individual priest somehow deciding that he might pick up some valid orders, on the way home from grocery shopping, but the fact that bishops possessing valid orders, in Rome’s eyes, have routinely participated, not in the supposed ordination of Anglican priests, here or there, but in the known, regular consecrations of Anglican bishops, starting with Old Catholics, in 1932, following the agreement of Bonn. And, having received valid episcopal lines, these Anglican bishops then dispense them, passing valid orders to all Anglican whom they ordain or consecrate. This is the Dutch Touch scenario and is not part of the consideration of Apostolicae Curae itself.

GKC

As I have been stating, it would happen under the circomstances where one here’s a calling from the spirit to something greater than an invalid ordination. Not everyone is called, and one doesn’t mearly shop around as if going to a grocery store.

One can see this calling in the fact that valid orders have been infused at all in to Anglicanism. There have been particular priests and bishops who would seek “rouge” Bishops willing to ordaine one to the valid priesthood. These come either from the Old Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, or in some cases rouge Catholic Bishops. It’s still happening today, not just with in Anglicanism but with in certain sects of Lutheranism (which had previously lost valid orders, i.e. not Dutch but here in the US).

 

[GKC]

As I have been stating, it would happen under the circomstances where one here’s a calling from the spirit to something greater than an invalid ordination. Not everyone is called, and one doesn’t mearly shop around as if going to a grocery store.

One can see this calling in the fact that valid orders have been infused at all in to Anglicanism. There have been particular priests and bishops who would seek “rouge” Bishops willing to ordaine one to the valid priesthood. These come either from the Old Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, or in some cases rouge Catholic Bishops. It’s still happening today, not just with in Anglicanism but with in certain sects of Lutheranism (which had previously lost valid orders, i.e. not Dutch but here in the US).

As I said, that could occur in the world of episcopi vagantes, and did, primarily around the late 1800s-1920s or so. I refer you to Anson’s BISHOPS AT LARGE.The logic would be peculiar, though, in that a suspicion of invalid ordination would result is an attempt to receive valid ordination, rather than move to a Church that possessed valid orders. Any Anglican who was concerned enough to do so, and would do so, outside the cahnnels of Anglicanism, would then be (in his eyes) validly ordained, but surrounded by his fellow priests who were not, and were thus not confecting or dispensing valid sacraments.

But certainly that did happen. My point is, it is meaningless, in that Old Catholics, since 1932, and the PNCC, since 1946, have been co-consecrating Anglican bishops regularly and officially (this is what is meant by the Dutch Touch, referring to Utrecht) . And such Anglican bishops spread the such valid orders further in Anglicanism every time they ordain or consecrate. It’s is difficult to find an Anglican without such lines in his orders. The likelihood that some individual priest would find it necessary to look further, to obtain valid orders, is vanishingly small. And, of course, a priest so double dipped does not propagatethe orders, as a Bishop does. It’s a moot issue.

GKC

 

[distracted]

No but I intend to!

yes… i know that you will… learn stuff there… if you are anything like me… and we are, as someone once said, “more alike than different”

too bad the whole world can’t be in the Real Presence…

but i guess they could be… ifthey chose to be…

 

[Faith1960]

just wondering… I’ve heard of Protestants spending time There… when a Catholic friend couldn’t fulfill his or her obligation… so i know some Protestants spend time There…

seems like not many of either persuasion do, though…

When I go to Adoration, I’m usually there for about a half hour or so. I’ve never been there for a full hour.

 

[distracted]

When I go to Adoration, I’m usually there for about a half hour or so. I’ve never been there for a full hour.

hmmm… for me, that’s just the time things start getting interesting…

i hope you can find more time soon…

 

[grannymh]

When I go to Adoration, I’m usually there for about a half hour or so. I’ve never been there for a full hour.

You are doing great. Jesus treasures the half hour you give Him

 

[Esdra]

If it wasn’t for Charismatic prayer groups and the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, I probably would not come home to the RCC. I was Pentecostal, then married a United Methodist, but was frustrated in that church. Now I am home for good. Our prayer group has good praise and worship music, praying for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and more. But we have adoration in front of the exposed Blessed Sacrament often. What a blessing.

Yes, the Catholic Charismatics are great. They have so much in common with the Pentecostals.

If I wouldn’t be on the way to Anabaptism, I would have joined them for sure. They are the future for the Catholic Church. I am sure about that. But I got to know them too late. I was already on another path to Protestantism. During my search I never considered searching within the Catholic Church… I met Mormons on my way, and also JW’s. And I also started creating my own religion - with many elements of Ancient Egyptian theology. I believed in many gods for quite a time. And I thought it’s really sad that those great religions don’t exist any longer, except Hinduism which you can’t join but most be born into it. But Jesus never let me go completely away. He preserved me. And now I am proud to call myself a Christian.

Esdra

 

[grannymh]

Yes, the Catholic Charismatics are great. They have so much in common with the Pentecostals.

If I wouldn’t be on the way to Anabaptism, I would have joined them for sure. They are the future for the Catholic Church. I am sure about that. But I got to know them too late. I was already on another path to Protestantism. During my search I never considered searching within the Catholic Church… I met Mormons on my way, and also JW’s. And I also started creating my own religion - with many elements of Ancient Egyptian theology. I believed in many gods for quite a time. And I thought it’s really sad that those great religions don’t exist any longer, except Hinduism which you can’t join but most be born into it. But Jesus never let me go completely away. He preserved me. And now I am proud to call myself a Christian.

Esdra

The one thing one should remember about Catholic Charismatics is that Jesus Christ is an on-going presence in their lives through the Catholic Sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist. Participation at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a must for them.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is meant for eternal life.

granny

 

[distracted]

Yes, the Catholic Charismatics are great. They have so much in common with the Pentecostals.

If I wouldn’t be on the way to Anabaptism, I would have joined them for sure. They are the future for the Catholic Church. I am sure about that. But I got to know them too late. I was already on another path to Protestantism. During my search I never considered searching within the Catholic Church… I met Mormons on my way, and also JW’s. And I also started creating my own religion - with many elements of Ancient Egyptian theology. I believed in many gods for quite a time. And I thought it’s really sad that those great religions don’t exist any longer, except Hinduism which you can’t join but most be born into it. But Jesus never let me go completely away. He preserved me. And now I am proud to call myself a Christian.

Esdra

what keeps you from crossing the Tiber?

have you spent much time at the Blessed Sacrament?

sorry if you answered that… haven’t got time 2 read all posts…

 

[Lutheranteach]

I frankly find this expression one that needs caution. Luther himself spoke of outward and inward adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. The stance of the early reformers was more against some of the abuses, such as believing that practicing adoration would bring favor with God.
I see nothing in scripture that leads me to believe that, once consecrated, the true presence of Christ is not there to remain. Afterall, pastors regularly take the consecrated body and blood to sick and shut-ins. And Luther also spoke harshly against mixing consecrated and unconsecrated hosts.
I do not believe that sacramental union means that Christ turns His presence on and off.

EDIT: I might add that even if you are right about the presence of Christ outside the sacramental act, I would not go as far as describing those practicing inward adoration along with outward adoration as “pointless”.
Jon

I’m not in disagreement. I don’t think one gets any benefit for merely sitting in front of hosts unless their mind and heart are focused on adoration. What I want to say is if you are in “adoration” and your thoughts are completely on your grocery list, I’m not sure you get credit for just seat time.

 

[Esdra]

The one thing one should remember about Catholic Charismatics is that Jesus Christ is an on-going presence in their lives through the Catholic Sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist. Participation at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a must for them.

I know. I already was at an Charismatic adoration. I have a girl-friend (former class mate) who is Charismatic Catholic. And I have talked and written to her via email for hours.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is meant for eternal life.

granny

 

[Esdra]

what keeps you from crossing the Tiber?

I don’t really know… I was a Catholic (baptised and even raised a little bit as Catholic) but was very poorly catechised! - And I think also because of the people… I am very disappointed about them. They claim to be Christians but they don’t believe like those. At least those Catholics I got to know here. I think if Catholicsm is the main religion in a country, like it is the case here in Austria - it is so different than let’s say in the US. Maybe I would even revert to Catholicsm if I wouldn’t live in Austria… If a Church starts to get too big, it’s just very different. Watered down by “atheist Catholics” (those who only go to mass because “one has to” but don’t have any Christian roots at all. And this the case here with most Catholics. I think that’s so sad. This is also the reason why I am considering to convert one for all to the Anabaptists. They are fullhearted Christians, they are small…) and liberals…

have you spent much time at the Blessed Sacrament?

I did, but please read what happened when I was there in this thread. I think it is on page 4.

sorry if you answered that… haven’t got time 2 read all posts…

 

[JonNC]

I’m not in disagreement. I don’t think one gets any benefit for merely sitting in front of hosts unless their mind and heart are focused on adoration. What I want to say is if you are in “adoration” and your thoughts are completely on your grocery list, I’m not sure you get credit for just seat time.

I appreciate your clarification.
Thanks,
Jon