Have you ever talked/written to your priest/bishop about a liturgical issue/abuse? If so, what happened?

[tcraig]

I read posts like these and it makes my heart ache, not only for the people who have been hurt, but for the “progressive” clergy and professional liturgistas with their pride and arrogance and bullheadedness.

This is what the aftermath of Vatican II’s nonapplication/misapplication in America has brought us to: instead of “singing a new church into being”, we savage good and decent and innocent people and literally drive them out of our churches.

“You shall know them by their fruits”, and IMO, I suspect that Jesus as Ultimate Judge will not be happy with a good many of the “fruits” that have bloomed over the last 40 years.

Thank you, Wolseley, for your kind words. The saddest thing of all is that I was a new Catholic - only 10 months in the Church - when I wrote that letter. We had moved from our original parish that we joined in to the abusive one, and I spent a lot of time making sure that the things that bothered me (and I was sure were abuses) were *actually *abuses.

Now, with more experience under my belt, I would get angry at such a letter and send a copy of it, along with my original letter, to the Bishop. But at the time I was totally devastated that a priest would respond to me in such a manner.

 

[awalt]

Right, as scylla said, this is the Liturgy forum. There is a Social Justice forum.

And besides, why are you assuming that proper liturgy and social activism are mutually exclusive? Why can’t we have properly conducted liturgies AND work for social justice? Are they somehow opposed to each other?

I understand the forum structure - my point was way more people and threads on liturgy abuses than living out Christ’s word. If the hours spent complaining about liturgical abuse were spent helping the poor we would be in a lot better place.

Just my opinion…

 

[puzzleannie]

Then you find yourself in disagreement with the Pope:

“I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing today is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the liturgy…” - Joseph Ratzinger, “Milestones: Memoirs 1927-1977”

while I heartily agree with what Joseph Ratzinger has written about liturgy, I doubt he participated in the forums as cardinal or that he participates now, and the poster was referring to complaints about liturgy on this forum, 90% of which are about offenses to personal preference, not about true liturgical abuse.

 

[LindaS]

Yes, we spoke to the priest. He told us that if we didn’t like the way he said Mass, to leave the parish. BTW, not the pastor, but the parochial vicar. Later, after much prayer, we wrote to the Bishop, who acted immediately. The priest was called into the Bishop’s office and told to say Mass according to the GIRM. Wonderful Bishop. We miss him. We also got a new pastor in the middle of all this, and he was also great.

Peace,
Linda

 

[estesbob]

No, because I do not think that the vast majority of what is considered an “abuse” here is even worth mentioning as it is pretty minor stuff.

That has been my expeprience also

 

[estesbob]

while I heartily agree with what Joseph Ratzinger has written about liturgy, I doubt he participated in the forums as cardinal or that he participates now, and the poster was referring to complaints about liturgy on this forum, 90% of which are about offenses to personal preference, not about true liturgical abuse.

Exactly!

 

[Martini]

I talked to an interim pastor one time. He was a deeply abusive man in a liturgical sense.

He left the Sacramentary and the Book of Gospels in the sacristy. Instead, he ad-libbed off the cuff. As a server, he gave me Holy Communion as if I was concelebrating. He spoke from the ambo about the non-necessity of going to confession. The list goes on and on.

He was filling-in after another very abusive man (who was removed from our parish by the bishop), while we awaited our permanent replacement.

After the second Mass I had a very gritty, harsh and emotional conference with him behind closed doors. Suffice to say for the next 90 days the Masses were by the book. After he left though, he reverted right back to form from what I understand…

 

[Harpazo]

while I heartily agree with what Joseph Ratzinger has written about liturgy, I doubt he participated in the forums as cardinal or that he participates now, and the poster was referring to complaints about liturgy on this forum, 90% of which are about offenses to personal preference, not about true liturgical abuse.

That may be, but there are cases in which Priests stray from what is to be done at the Mass. As Fr. Mitch always says “It’s not my Mass, it’s Christ’s Mass and I have no business messing with it.”

If all Priests could be like that! I was terrified of bringing a non-Catholic to Mass with me for the longest time. I did once, and she never came back, because it was almost exactly like her Baptist service that she didn’t feel a need to convert. How can we show non-Catholics the beauty of the Catholic faith, if we refuse to see it and show it ourselves?

Needless to say, I’ve left the Roman Rite and will begin the process of becoming a Maronite Catholic. The Roman Rite parishes in my area are filled with such heterodoxy, that no one can distinguish them from a Protestant service. No longer do priests want to maintain loyalty to the Pope and Magisterium, but would rather act in a “do-it-my-way” manner. I pray for the Roman Rite priests in my area daily.

Pace e Bene
Andrew

 

[Steeltemplar]

I understand the forum structure - my point was way more people and threads on liturgy abuses than living out Christ’s word. If the hours spent complaining about liturgical abuse were spent helping the poor we would be in a lot better place.

Just my opinion…

I would ask this: What do you honestly know about the lives and practices of the people who are concerned about these liturgical abuses? How do you know that these people aren’t quite active in various acts of charity or responsibility? You don’t know their lives, how many children they might have and how much time the spend raising them to be good Catholics, or many other details.

Why is it that you think concern about liturgical abuse and helping the poor (or other important things) are mutually exclusive somehow?

Further, it does not take much less time for you to accuse people here than it does for them to express their concern about abuses.

And why should they not be concerned? The liturgy is very important to our spiritual lives. Liturgical abuse can and has dissuaded people from joining the Catholic Church. Thankfully, when I converted, the parish I had seen was orthodox. If I had been to some which I have seen since then my conversion might have been delayed. Abuses obscure the real teaching and message of the Church - both to Catholics and to non-Catholics.

 

[Martini]

I understand the forum structure - my point was way more people and threads on liturgy abuses than living out Christ’s word. If the hours spent complaining about liturgical abuse were spent helping the poor we would be in a lot better place.

Just my opinion…

And if all Masses were simply celebrated within the instructions set by the Church, there would be no need for complaining and we could focus on other matters.

That would work too, right?

 

[japhy]

Well… the priest I sent a letter to a couple weeks ago has received it. But as of yet, no reply, no response.

Sigh.

 

[THurifer2]

not in this parish but in a very troubled neighboring parish, both sides of the dispute (over very real issues that affected nearly every aspect of parish pastoral, liturgical and catechetical life) contacted the bishop in organized public ways. His response was correct in every way, but the dispute escalated and went on for many years, was reported on local news media frequently (very slanted) and even in national news a couple of times. 2 pastors later, a lot of very public resignations and accusations, the parish seems to have done a 180, has recently hosted a Marian Conference, and a Divine Mercy 3-day retreat is planned.

SOunds like the liberals nearly succeeded in the goal of their quest to destroy your church…glad to see God win…again.

 

[benedictgal]

Agreed- there is way more discussion about liturgical abuse on this site than helping the poor and disadvantaged, ways to grow spirituality, how to live the life of Christ in a secular world…it’s amazing. People don’t seem to realize the Mass is intended to send us out to evangelize in the world. The inward focus is downright scary at times.

Jesus told Judas that

the poor you will always have with you

when Judas made almost the same remarks as you have, await, when the woman was annoiting Jesus with costly nard oil.

Liturgial abuse is very serious. It compromises the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The first commandment above all else is to love God. Loving God means giving Him the proper worship that is due. Before we can take care of the poor, fight for the disadvantaged and do all these other acts of mercy, we need to love God first and foremost.

The Church has very specific norms, guidelines and rubrics when it comes to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. These must be followed. If Rome didn’t think that such “shadows” were obscuring the beauty of the Mass, Pope John Paul II wouldn’t have issued Redemptionis Sacramentum and called the Synod on the Eucharist to address these important issues.

The Second Vatican Council called the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass the

source and summit

of the Church’s life. If the Mass is not properly celebrated according to the established rubrics, norms and guidelines, then we are no better than our ancestors in the Faith, ancient Israel who constantly had to pay for the infractions they committed against God when it came to worship.

If worship were not so important, then Jesus wouldn’t have taken the time to use a whip to drive the moneychangers and animal vendors from the Court of the Gentiles, which, itself, was a place of prayer.

Redemptionis Sacramentum guarantees the rights of Catholics to have the Mass properly celebrated.

 

[benedictgal]

while I heartily agree with what Joseph Ratzinger has written about liturgy, I doubt he participated in the forums as cardinal or that he participates now, and the poster was referring to complaints about liturgy on this forum, 90% of which are about offenses to personal preference, not about true liturgical abuse.

Actually, puzzleannie, then-Cardinal Ratzinger played a key role in writing Redemptionis Sacramentum, as the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments contributed significantly to this document. In other words, he was already very much aware of the problems that we are currently facing regarding liturgical abuse. He certainly doesn’t need us to tell him that things are not what they should be. After all, he’s written three books on the subject, and wrote a major document, Sacramentum Caritatis, as Pope. To those (and I certainly don’t mean you, puzzleannie, as you have made your point in the above post I quoted) who treat his words lightly, I wouldn’t be too dismissive of him. After all, a lot of what he wrote as Cardinal is now coming to pass with him as Pope.

In tomorrow’s daily Mass readings, we will hear the story of King Nebuchanezzar’s son seeing that enormous hand writing on the wall. I believe that we are now seeing that hand return, only, in this case, it’s wearing a huge papal ring and it is guided by Christ, himself, as that hand belongs to his Vicar on earth, who happens to be the former Jospeh Ratzinger.