Have you experienced Paul VI's mass in Latin? (like the Pope's mass)

[Bebekoualy]

Has anyone tried the OF in Latin?
Which means the WHOLE thing in Latin, not just Gregorian Chant. The words of consecration, etc etc. Everything.

This is the mass the way it should be said, in a way. IF you look at the Vatican’s Texts about the Vatican II council. You’ll see they want the latin to be retained in the latin rite.

I discovered it, and it changed my view on the new rite. It is absolutely wonderful!!
What do you think of it?

 

[corsair]

Yes, and I must say it is a far better experience than the “standard” OF weekend Mass.

Still it can not compare to a well sung High Mass (EF) in beauty or reverence (my opinion).

There will be many that disagree with me but thats OK too.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

There is ABSOLUTELY NO TRUTH to the statement that the Council wanted the Mass to remain in Latin. Quite the opposite is the truth.

Get over it. The Mass in Latin, while beautiful, is NOT the Mass that the people can either understand or that they can participate in. That is EXACTLY why they went to the vernacular.

It is those that keep agitating, that claim that ONLY the Latin Mass is beautiful, etc. that are causing significant problems in the Church. One can only pray that once Benedict XVI dies, this will all go away PERMANENTLY!

 

[Mark1970]

Yes, and I must say it is a far better experience than the “standard” OF weekend Mass.

Still it can not compare to a well sung High Mass (EF) in beauty or reverence (my opinion).

There will be many that disagree with me but thats OK too.

That’s “ditto” for me!

 

[jam070406]

There is ABSOLUTELY NO TRUTH to the statement that the Council wanted the Mass to remain in Latin. Quite the opposite is the truth.

Get over it. The Mass in Latin, while beautiful, is NOT the Mass that the people can either understand or that they can participate in. That is EXACTLY why they went to the vernacular.

It is those that keep agitating, that claim that ONLY the Latin Mass is beautiful, etc. that are causing significant problems in the Church. One can only pray that once Benedict XVI dies, this will all go away PERMANENTLY!

I have participated in the EF many times.
I find it far more beautiful then the OF. I just can’t get over it.

 

[Corki]

There is ABSOLUTELY NO TRUTH to the statement that the Council wanted the Mass to remain in Latin. Quite the opposite is the truth.

Get over it. The Mass in Latin, while beautiful, is NOT the Mass that the people can either understand or that they can participate in. That is EXACTLY why they went to the vernacular.

It is those that keep agitating, that claim that ONLY the Latin Mass is beautiful, etc. that are causing significant problems in the Church. One can only pray that once Benedict XVI dies, this will all go away PERMANENTLY!

There is ABSOLUTELY NO TRUTH to the statements that the council “went to the vernacular” or that people can’t participate unless the Mass is in the vernacular.

The council documents, in fact, were adament that Latin be retained and put the responsibility on the Bishops to make sure that everyone knew the Latin responses. It’s only what happened later, including the failure of many bishops to fulfill this charge, that resulted in a completely vernacular Mass.

 

[CaptCrunch73]

I think I’d prefer the Ordinaries in Latin and everything else in the vernacular. But since we’re discussing what Vatican II actually said about the use of Latin we mine as well look at the documents, here’s a link to Sacrosanctum Concilium.

Section 36 seems to discuss the use of Latin.

1. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
2. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.
3. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language.
4. Translations from the Latin text into the mother tongue intended for use in the liturgy must be approved by the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned above.

 

[puzzleannie]

yes in the early days following the introduction of the Mass of Paul VI at least where I was going to school that Mass in Latin was still the norm, and not until I was married and had my first child did our parish (campus ministry at that time) and surrounding parishes start using English and other vernacular languages. It actually took longer for the ethnic parishes, Lithuanian, Slovenian, Italian etc. to get translations in place so for quite a while you could still find the “new” Mass in Latin. By the late 70s however it seems to have been if not forbidden, actively discouraged. Then in the 80s you got some parishes with the indult for the Tridentine Mass, but I don’t recall anywhere that had the “new” Mass in Latin until the EF became more generally available.

 

[At_Trent]

There is ABSOLUTELY NO TRUTH to the statement that the Council wanted the Mass to remain in Latin. Quite the opposite is the truth.

Get over it. The Mass in Latin, while beautiful, is NOT the Mass that the people can either understand or that they can participate in. That is EXACTLY why they went to the vernacular.

It is those that keep agitating, that claim that ONLY the Latin Mass is beautiful, etc. that are causing significant problems in the Church. One can only pray that once Benedict XVI dies, this will all go away PERMANENTLY!

You get over it pops. Believe it or not, there are literate Catholics who can read and do understand the Mass.

And your slurs concerning pope BXVI are repulsive.

 

[corsair]

Well said, At Trent. I think somebody has a bad case of “wrong side of the bed” today.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

Has anyone tried the OF in Latin?
Which means the WHOLE thing in Latin, not just Gregorian Chant. The words of consecration, etc etc. Everything.

This is the mass the way it should be said, in a way. IF you look at the Vatican’s Texts about the Vatican II council. You’ll see they want the latin to be retained in the latin rite.

I discovered it, and it changed my view on the new rite. It is absolutely wonderful!!
What do you think of it?

The Tridentine Mass, slightly modified for our occassional Response in about 1961, is highly demanding of properly Formed (Trained formally) detailed ritual practise by a proper Priest. It is All Latin; we have Very few Latin Responses. Only the Gospel and Epistles are Reread in English by the Priest begining the Homily in English.

• Any significant deviation or ‘new ideas’ like part English are forbidden and should be reported to the Parish Council and Bishop. The Tridentine Mass is Very Details structured, and permits No digression: The USCCB Liturgical Norms

. Have Ushered Numerous Tridentine Masses, (Tridentine High Mass last Sunday) after we were trained. There is No Communion in Hand, or “Amen”, ever. Except for Handicapped, everyone Kneels, Communion on Tongue Only by Priest or Deacon, etc., etc. It is very powerful and Moving. Again, the Entire Mass, Especially Consecration Must be in Latin. The Teaching Authority for the Tridentine Mass is the St Peter’s Fraternity Seminary in Nebraska. One of their Professors, and their Priest were the “Deacons” Assisting the Celebrant Properly, Formally for High Mass, which requires 3 Trained Clergy. Not many know that the Novus Ordo is an Older form of Mass, based on Research before Vatican II of the earliest Masses of the first 3 Centuries, which had Communion on Tongue or The Then consecrated bread in Hand. The Apostles bwegan the Sign of Peace as the Easteern 'Kiss Of Peace, modified by Vatican II to a handshake option in western societies.
"Mass of the Early Christians"

 

[egnubo]

There is ABSOLUTELY NO TRUTH to the statement that the Council wanted the Mass to remain in Latin. Quite the opposite is the truth.

Get over it. The Mass in Latin, while beautiful, is NOT the Mass that the people can either understand or that they can participate in. That is EXACTLY why they went to the vernacular.

It is those that keep agitating, that claim that ONLY the Latin Mass is beautiful, etc. that are causing significant problems in the Church. One can only pray that once Benedict XVI dies, this will all go away PERMANENTLY!

MY MY MY COOL IT. Unless you were there in Vatican II, I would be really hesitant to say what you do in capital letters.

 

[ProVobis]

I think I’d prefer the Ordinaries in Latin and everything else in the vernacular. But since we’re discussing what Vatican II actually said about the use of Latin we mine as well look at the documents, here’s a link to Sacrosanctum Concilium.

Section 36 seems to discuss the use of Latin.

Indeed but even that’s been translated with some vernacular bias:

For example, there’s no “mother tongue” or “frequently” in the Latin. Or break of thought with artificial periods. The rest of the translation could be a good exercise.

1. § 1. Linguae latinae usus, salvo particulari iure, in Ritibus latinis servetur.

§ 2. Cum tamen, sive in Missa, sive in Sacramentorum administratione, sive in aliis Liturgiae partibus, haud raro linguae vernaculae usurpatio valde utilis apud populum exsistere possit, amplior locus ipsi tribui valeat, imprimis autem in lectionibus et admonitionibus, in nonnullis orationibus et cantibus, iuxta normas quae de hac re in sequentibus capitibus singillatim statuuntur.

§ 3. Huiusmodi normis servatis, est competentis auctoritatis ecclesiasticae [110] territorialis, de qua in art. 22 § 2, etiam, si casus ferat, consilio habito cum Episcopis finitimarum regionum eiusdem linguae, de usu et modo linguae vernaculae statuere, actis ab Apostolica Sede probatis seu confirmatis.

§ 4. Conversio textus latini in linguam vernaculam in Liturgia adhibenda, a competenti auctoritate ecclesiastica territoriali, de qua supra, approbari debet.

 

[CaptCrunch73]

Indeed but even that’s been translated with some vernacular bias:

For example, there’s no “mother tongue” or “frequently” in the Latin. Or break of thought with artificial periods. The rest of the translation could be a good exercise.

Well, I’m a real novice at Latin but I’m trying Would “indigenous” work for “mother tongue” and “often enough” for “frequently” work?

 

[ProVobis]

Well, I’m a real novice at Latin but I’m trying Would “indigenous” work for “mother tongue” and “often enough” for “frequently” work?

It could. But my point was that I could have used the expression such as “vulgar tongue,” which technically is not incorrect, but it would not have been as desirable.

As far as “frequently” goes, the Latin “haud raro” is literally “not rarely” so almost anything could have been used, including your example, so I think you got the idea.

However, what is not mentioned in the SC is that Trent set a limit on the upside on the translations by stating that anyone promoting an all-vernacular was in anathema.

 

[Paxvobis]

I haven’t, but I’ve wanted too. I have, however, been to an OF partly in Latin (mainly the Kyrie (yeah, I know it’s Greek but whatever), the Gloria, the Sanctus, and the Angus Dei).

There is ABSOLUTELY NO TRUTH to the statement that the Council wanted the Mass to remain in Latin. Quite the opposite is the truth.

Really!? This is the first time I’ve ever heard this. What about the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy? It said “Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites..” Please explain your argument.

Get over it. The Mass in Latin, while beautiful, is NOT the Mass that the people can either understand or that they can participate in. That is EXACTLY why they went to the vernacular.

Participation at the Mass comes through prayer. I can participate equally well at both the OF and the EF.

It is those that keep agitating, that claim that ONLY the Latin Mass is beautiful, etc. that are causing significant problems in the Church. One can only pray that once Benedict XVI dies, this will all go away PERMANENTLY!

I agree that those who say that ONLY the Latin Mass is beautiful are wrong and that this is a problem. But what about those who just prefer the EF to the OF? Why are you being like those people whom you criticize who want to ban one form of the liturgy in favor of the other?

 

[pnewton]

Personally, I prefer the vernacular, as it engages me better. But yes, we have had the Mass start to finish in Latin and I know the chants to the responses. It helps us when we have need of bilingual Masses and I see it as an important part of our Catholic heritage. The idea that Latin is going to go away I find highly dubious.

 

[jantoniello]

At St. John Cantius in Chicago, the Liturgy is celebrated with the fullness of Tradition supporting it. The Ordinary Form is celebrated ad orientem and in Latin (save for the readings and the prayer of the faithful). The Cantians are models of the priesthood and true Liturgy patrimony.

I was only ever moved to tears 3 times in my life at Mass from beauty. 2 of those times were at St. John Cantius, both in the OF.

 

[Brendan]

Our parish has a regularly scheduled week day OF Mass in Latin. Well, mostly in Latin, readings are in English, and the Kyrie is still in Greek and the Amen, Alleuia part of the Sanctus are still in Hebrew

We used to have a weekend OF Mass in Latin, ad orientum, but that was switched over to an EF Mass when Summorum Pontificum was issued.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Our parish has a regularly scheduled week day OF Mass in Latin. Well, mostly in Latin, readings are in English, and the Kyrie is still in Greek and the Amen, Alleuia part of the Sanctus are still in Hebrew

We used to have a weekend OF Mass in Latin, ad orientum, but that was switched over to an EF Mass when Summorum Pontificum was issued.

Lucky!