Have you heard of Centering Prayer?

[Joysong]

JimR:

Teaching CP isn’t much different than teaching a person to say the Rosary. When is a child ready to learn to say the Rosary?

There is no comparison whatsoever to praying the rosary and CP, and I think you do the readers a disservice in even suggesting this. The rosary takes about 20 minutes to pray, and the mind is very actively using prayer formulae. If the person is also meditating on the mysteries, which is advised, then at least three of the faculties are occupied, the will, the memory, and the imagination.

CP teaches that the person must reject all thoughts other than a personal sacred word for the length of about 20 minutes, and use the word to bring focus back upon God when distracting thoughts intervene. Now I find this utterly difficult if not impossible for a 3rd or 4th grader to do. No way is it similar to praying a rosary!
The only faculty occupied is the will, which opens the door to all kinds of distractions if the person is not ready for this, Jim.

Doggone it, let’s be realistic here. It is not for children, nor even for a beginner to the prayer life, for to remain in loving attention to God for any length of time, the person must first grow in that ability through the process of meditation, where love is born and nourished by what is fed into the understanding. Your concept voids the understanding completely and keeps it inert.

While I realize you and I will be ok remaining in disagreement, it seemed harmful to close and leave the reader with the idea that CP is just a simplistic practice like the rosary. At least they will have another opinion to weigh.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There is no comparison whatsoever to praying the rosary and CP, and I think you do the readers a disservice in even suggesting this. The rosary takes about 20 minutes to pray, and the mind is very actively using prayer formulae. If the person is also meditating on the mysteries, which is advised, then at least three of the faculties are occupied, the will, the memory, and the imagination.

In praying the Rosary, the mind is only active to the degree that the prayer words needs to be memorised. As a person continues to say the Rosary, it should deepen, if taught correctly. The Hail Mary’s become in essence, a prayer word, and the focus then becomes the mysteries which are meditated upon. The Hail Mary’s become so common to the prayer that the person says them automatically, without much thought. As the person mediates on the mysteries, that mediation becomes deeper, and eventually, the person reaches a level of contemplation. During the Rosary, people also get distracted with outside thoughts and distractions, they are merely to return to the prayer word(the Hail Mary’s) and bring their focus back on their meditation.

There is actually not much difference here from Centering Pray.

If you’re not praying the Rosary at this level and merely reciting the words, you’ll remain at the novice level of discursive prayer and it will be “dry as a stick,” to use Teresa’s words. Most people will eventually abandon the prayer.

CP teaches that the person must reject all thoughts other than a personal sacred word for the length of about 20 minutes

,

Not exactly, CP teaches that when you become aware of thoughts or distractions, just gently return to the sacred prayer word. You can never empty your mind of thoughts and teachers of CP doesn’t attempt to suggest that you can or should. Also, the prayer word isn’t the focus, but the intention of being in the loving presence of God, as it should be in any method of prayer.

Now I find this utterly difficult if not impossible for a 3rd or 4th grader to do.

As in teaching the Rosary, a 3rd of 4th grader is going to be focused on the words of the prayers, and the mechanics of working through the beads, if you can even keep their attention for that amount of time. However, there are some, like my daughter, who could say the Rosary on her own in the 2nd grade.
It would be similar in teaching them CP. They would be more focused on the prayer word, and there are very few 3rd or 4th graders, that will last 20 minutes in any form of prayer. But it doesn’t mean it should not be taught. It’s really up to the individual child.

Doggone it, let’s be realistic here. It is not for children, nor even for a beginner to the prayer life, for to remain in loving attention to God for any length of time, the person must first grow in that ability through the process of meditation, where love is born and nourished by what is fed into the understanding. Your concept voids the understanding completely and keeps it inert.

I’m feel that I am being realistic. I see the lack of experience and understanding about prayer in general, to be a reason for many to be opposed and even become hostile towards Centering Prayer.

Heck I was almost banned from a fundie sight for opening a thread about it. Well that and the Liturgy of the Hours

Peace
Jim

 

[DBT]

Jim -

Let me know if this makes sense in helping bridge this divide:

To use St. John’s terminology, you’re speaking in terms of the “proficient” – one who has already been brought to contemplative prayer. As such, you rightly focus on issues relating to receptivity and recollection . . . where CP would seem to be a natural fit. However, as St. Teresa teaches, this is not the way of “beginners.” And , what I and some others on this thread are talking about is what we see as the mistake CP practicioners make in applying the ways of the proficient to all . . . including beginners.

As has been noted throughout this thread, St. Teresa identifies distinct differences between the way of beginners and the way of proficients. With beginners, prayer is focused on active methods (using our intellect in prayer) and especially on the practice of virtue not quasi-passive methods (receptivity and recollection) per se. All of that comes later.

I think it is very notable that St. Teresa doesn’t even begin to discuss issues like receptivity and recollection until Chapter 28 in “Way of Perfection” and the 4th Mansion in “Interior Castle.” What does she talk about in all the preceeding pages? The way of beginners of course.

In fact she’s quite adamant against the type of advice you’re giving to those in the beginning stages of prayer. In the 2nd mansions, she teaches “we are not to seek that which has not yet been given.” She teaches that there’s a notable lack in humility in those beginners who desire the delights and consolations of contemplation before putting in the appropriate effort. At this stage of the game, St. Teresa teaches God desires the practice of virtue . . . He will give receptivity in His own way and time.

Does this make sense at all???

Dave.

 

[DBT]

And one other thing should be added to the last post . . .

CP practicioners like to cite the example of the “Cloud of Unknowing” as their proof text. But I seem to recall the author of the Cloud giving explicit advice to readers on PAGE ONE! not to give the book to those who are not already proficients (i.e. contemplatives). Is this not an explicit warning (ala St. Teresa) about “readiness?”

From my experience on this forum, CP devotees ignore this entirely and start reading the Cloud on Page 2.

Dave

 

[amoxoxoma]

Hello whatevergirl!!!

I’d like to respond by affirming what JimR-OCDS has said in his posts. There is nothing but simplicity in the practice of this prayer. I begin my prayer by acknowledging my total dependence on the God who is here and now, closer than my own breath, in whom I live and move and have my being.

How do I place my attention on that loving presence in gratitude and adoration? Frankly whosebob’s quote "Fr. Dubay suggests that beginners be instructed to conduct a simple, wordless meditation on the indwelling of the Blessed Trinity within their souls " is in fact a description of Centering Prayer, not something different and better. Whether we attend to the presence and action of God in our soul by using a device such as a prayer word, (for me it’s maranatha), or not, the method of prayer is actually the same: when we become aware that our attention has wandered away from the presence of God we simply and gently refocus our attention back on God. Sometimes we “feel” that presence, sometimes we don’t, but we know through faith that God is present to us when we are present to Him. There is never any attempt to blank out the mind (that is of course impossible). What in fact happens is that one becomes acutely aware of the present moment and how every thing we experience - the sound of a passing car, an itch on the arm, a memory of last night’s dinner, a worry about something at work, a cloud passing across the sun making the room temporarily darker, etc., all become “thoughts” that co-exist with our awareness of God’s presence, or become vehicles (if we climb into them) for losing our awareness of God’s presence. Sometimes the awareness of the presence of God becomes so strong that great emotion wells up in one’s soul and tears are produced. Sometimes thoughts and memories of things we said or did for which we need God’s fogiveness come up and we turn them over to God for healing. This prayer is simple yet all-embracing.

Also, if you have read anything by Fr. Keating or the centeringprayer.org website you will see that the practice of Lectio Divina goes hand in hand with Centering Prayer.
There is nothing to be afraid of. If this kind of prayer doesn’t seem right for you now, then don’t do it. But the condemnations of it by some on here are based on fear and ignorance.

 

[whosebob]

There is nothing to be afraid of. If this kind of prayer doesn’t seem right for you now, then don’t do it. But the condemnations of it by some on here are based on fear and ignorance.

JMJ + OBT​

Thank you for your reflection amoxoxoma, I appreciated reading it. However, this last sentence seems entirely unfair and disrespectful to those informed forums members who have carefully explained their objections to CP being taught to beginners. I’m not asking you to agree with those concerns, but please at least recognize that such well thought-out criticism is NOT based on “fear and ignorance.”

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

 

[Polly_Anna]

Here is something else on the subject:

Is Centering Prayer authentic Spirituality?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Here is something else on the subject:

Is Centering Prayer authentic Spirituality?

The thread you point us to is by a person who mistinterpreted the Vatican article, because that person is misinformed about Centering Prayer.

The Vatican was referring to Transcendential Mediation TM and Yoga, which is not Centering Prayer.

TM, practicioners seek to go outside of themselve, to seek enlightenment.

Centering prayer is the opposite, in that the person goes within to be with the sources of truth, Jesus Christ.

 

[amoxoxoma]

JMJ + OBT​

Thank you for your reflection amoxoxoma, I appreciated reading it. However, this last sentence seems entirely unfair and disrespectful to those informed forums members who have carefully explained their objections to CP being taught to beginners. I’m not asking you to agree with those concerns, but please at least recognize that such well thought-out criticism is NOT based on “fear and ignorance.”

In Christ.

IC XC NIKA

Of course you are right - a well-thought out criticism isn’t based on fear and ignorance. I didn’t intend a blanket statement towards all who may have anything critical to say about Centering Prayer. I don’t see you condemning it, but rather raising concerns about who it is taught to and at what age, what the expectations of newbies might be about “instant” contemplation, etc.

 

[DBT]

But the condemnations of it by some on here are based on fear and ignorance.

Oh my

Hi Amoxoxoma and welcome

I’m not sure how closely you’ve been following the details of this thread and what the points of divergence are, but I can assure you fear and ignorance have nothing to do with it. Speaking only for myself, would it suprise you to know that I too agree with many of the things JimR has to say? That our major point of difference has to do with the whole notion of “readiness?”

No doubt many posters around here have benefited from CP. All well and good. But when it comes to passive prayer methods, the Saints are quite clear: This is the way of proficients (contempatives); not beginners. I don’t know how anybody with even a limited understanding of the writings of the Doctors (St. Teresa in particular) could come to any conclusion other than that.

My best to you . . .

Dave

 

[Joysong]

Looking back briefly at Pennington’s book, there is nothing said whatsoever about the growth in essential virtues [humility, detachment, mortification, love of neighbor] mentioned by St. Teresa, and pointed out so splendidly by DBT above.

The position being promoted by CP users is that if one opens to God through the use of the sacred word, they are thereby more receptive to God and His action within them.

[Pennington on Centering Prayer, pg. 8]
This is essentially what we are going to be sharing in this book, “The hidden wisdom of God, that no has seen and no ear has heard, things beyond the human mind, all that God has prepared for those who love him …”

It is well to recall Jesus’s words in Jn. 14:21, “He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. But he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and “manifest” myself to him.” Implied in CP teaching is that one may expect to receive this manifestation of love from the Lord [the hidden wisdom mentioned above] with no mention of keeping his commandments and growing in virtue, simply by preparing for it through the technique of the sacred word.

Let’s see what St. Teresa has to say here:

You will ask, my daughters, why I am talking to you about virtues when you have more than enough books to teach you about them and when you want me to tell you only about contemplation. My reply is that, if you had asked me about meditation, I could have talked to you about it, and advised you all to practise it, even if you do not possess the virtues. For this is the first step to be taken towards the acquisition of the virtues and the very life of all Christians depends upon their beginning it.

But contemplation, daughters, is another matter. --snip-- for this King does not allow Himself to be taken except by one who surrenders wholly to Him.

Therefore, daughters, if you want me to tell you the way to attain to contemplation, do allow me to speak at some length about these things, even if at the time they do not seem to you very important, for I think myself that they are. If you have no wish either to hear about them or to practise them, continue your mental prayer all your life; but in that case I assure you, and all persons who desire this blessing, that in my opinion you will not attain true contemplation.

I will now explain what mental prayer is, as some of you will not understand this. God grant that we may practise it as we should! I am afraid, however, that, if we do not achieve the virtues, this can only be done with great labour, although the virtues are not necessary here in such a high degree as they are for contemplation. I mean that the King of glory will not come to our souls - that is, so as to be united with them - unless we strive to gain the greatest virtues. --snip–

I will tell you, then, that God is sometimes pleased to show great favour to persons who are in an evil state, so that by this means He may snatch them out of the hands of the devil. It must be understood, I think, that such persons will not be in mortal sin at the time.

But I cannot believe that He would grant them contemplation. For that is a Divine union, in which the Lord takes His delight in the soul and the soul takes its delight in Him; and there is no way in which the Purity of the Heavens can take pleasure in a soul that is unclean, nor can the Delight of the angels have delight in that which is not His own.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim -

Let me know if this makes sense in helping bridge this divide:

To use St. John’s terminology, you’re speaking in terms of the “proficient” – one who has already been brought to contemplative prayer. As such, you rightly focus on issues relating to receptivity and recollection . . . where CP would seem to be a natural fit. However, as St. Teresa teaches, this is not the way of “beginners.” And , what I and some others on this thread are talking about is what we see as the mistake CP practicioners make in applying the ways of the proficient to all . . . including beginners.

As has been noted throughout this thread, St. Teresa identifies distinct differences between the way of beginners and the way of proficients. With beginners, prayer is focused on active methods (using our intellect in prayer) and especially on the practice of virtue not quasi-passive methods (receptivity and recollection) per se. All of that comes later.

I think it is very notable that St. Teresa doesn’t even begin to discuss issues like receptivity and recollection until Chapter 28 in “Way of Perfection” and the 4th Mansion in “Interior Castle.” What does she talk about in all the preceeding pages? The way of beginners of course.

In fact she’s quite adamant against the type of advice you’re giving to those in the beginning stages of prayer. In the 2nd mansions, she teaches “we are not to seek that which has not yet been given.” She teaches that there’s a notable lack in humility in those beginners who desire the delights and consolations of contemplation before putting in the appropriate effort. At this stage of the game, St. Teresa teaches God desires the practice of virtue . . . He will give receptivity in His own way and time.

Does this make sense at all???

Dave.

Both John and Teresa are talking about levels of contemplation, which are beyond the novice. They’re not talking about using only discursive prayer.

"My reply is that, if you had asked me about meditation, I could have talked to you about it, and advised you all to practise it, even if you do not possess the virtues. **For this is the first step to be taken towards the acquisition of the virtues and the very life of all Christians depends upon their beginning it.**No one, however lost a soul he may be, should neglect so great a blessing if God inspires him to make use of it. All this I have already written elsewhere, and so have many others who know what they are writing about, which I certainly do not: God knows that.
" The Way of Perfection, Chapter 11.

Centering Prayer is not contemplation, but a method of prayer that can lead to it. You will not begin unless you start.

It also does not exclude, other forms of prayer. I still do Lectio Divina, The Rosary and Divine Chaplet.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

And one other thing should be added to the last post . . .

CP practicioners like to cite the example of the “Cloud of Unknowing” as their proof text. But I seem to recall the author of the Cloud giving explicit advice to readers on PAGE ONE! not to give the book to those who are not already proficients (i.e. contemplatives). Is this not an explicit warning (ala St. Teresa) about “readiness?”

From my experience on this forum, CP devotees ignore this entirely and start reading the Cloud on Page 2.

Dave

Dave,
I beleive you misunderstood.

“I lay this charge upon you and implore you with all the power and force that the bond of charity can command. You are not to read it yourself or to others, or to copy it; nor are you to allow it so to be read in private or in public or copied willingly and deliberately, insofar as this is possible, **except by someone or to someone who, as far as you know, has resolved with steadfast determination, truly and sincerely to be a perfect follower of Christ; **and this not only in the active life, but in the contemplative life, at the highest point which a perfect soul in this present life can possibly reach, with the help of grace, whilst it still dwells in this mortal body.”

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

After all of this, Father Keating has a wonderful explaination about
Centering Prayer.

It is important not to confuse Centering Prayer with certain Eastern techniques of meditation such as Transcendental Meditation. The use of the Sacred Word in Centering Prayer does not have the particular calming effects attributed to the TM mantra. Nor is the Sacred Word a vehicle to go to the spiritual level of one’s being as it is in TM. There is no cause-and-effect relationship between using the Sacred Word and arriving at some altered state of consciousness. The Sacred Word is merely a symbol of our will’s consent to God’s presence and action within us based on faith in the doctrine of the Divine indwelling. The Sacred Word is simply a means of reaffirming our original intention at the beginning of our period of prayer to be in God’s presence and to surrender to the divine action when we are attracted to some other thought, feeling or impression.

Throughout the period of Centering Prayer, our intention predominates–the movement of our will to consent to God’s intention, which according to our faith, is to communicate the Divine Life to us. Hence, unlike TM, Centering Prayer is a personal relationship with God, not a technique.

------------------- Read the entire article here;

centeringprayer.com/cp-tm.htm

 

[amoxoxoma]

Oh my

Hi Amoxoxoma and welcome

I’m not sure how closely you’ve been following the details of this thread and what the points of divergence are, but I can assure you fear and ignorance have nothing to do with it. Speaking only for myself, would it suprise you to know that I too agree with many of the things JimR has to say? That our major point of difference has to do with the whole notion of “readiness?”

No doubt many posters around here have benefited from CP. All well and good. But when it comes to passive prayer methods, the Saints are quite clear: This is the way of proficients (contempatives); not beginners. I don’t know how anybody with even a limited understanding of the writings of the Doctors (St. Teresa in particular) could come to any conclusion other than that.

My best to you . . .

Dave

DBT, of course I read the whole thread through. Frankly, IMHO, the fruits of centering prayer sufficiently speak for themselves. All I know is if I fail to sit in silent prayer on a regular basis the normal everyday irritations of life get to me more easily, my mind seems more clouded, my thoughts flit about more. When I practice centering prayer I am more present to others, can think more clearly about issues, and respond in stressful situations with more equanimity. Does any of this mean I have less or more virtue than some one who prays the rosary? No. I let God be my judge. I just know that when I pray and open myself to His presence consciously, He responds, and there is nothing to fear.

Now, I will say that I left the church in my teens, learned various forms of eastern meditation, including TM, in the late 60’s and early 70’s, but had what I can only call a “born-again” experience of the risen Christ in '79 which brought me back to christianity, and then a year later to the Catholic church, and THEN I discovered William Johnston’s “The Cloud of Unknowing”, and THEN I discovered the writings of Keating and Pennington, and knew why He brought me back to His Church. Rather than finding some exalted state of consciousness removed from the world of men, I find myself continually humbled right here in this body in time/space by the process of ongoing cleansing that submitting to God in prayer not only requires, but demands.

You or others can critique my state of grace, or determine how developed the virtues are in me, judge which mansion I may or may not be in, or engage in any other intellectual commentary you choose. I leave all that to God. But Centering Prayer will stay.

 

[Joysong]

Jim and Amox…

What is it you want to accomplish by posting the positive aspects of CP? Are you hoping that many will attempt it, including the original poster? Have you disregarded not only our cautions, but those of the saints who gave doctrinal instruction about the readiness of the person?

I realize we are at a point of no return, for you are not hearing that we do agree with you on CP’s worth, but you do not emend your thinking to consider readiness and potential harm to the reader by advocating it to anyone whomever. It will be a source of deep confusion, as I noticed in a couple of posts already. Nobody wants it to go away, Amox, and stay it will.

To casually exhort another to try it without anything else to advise them, seems rather foolhardy to me. No spiritual director worth his weight is going to speak to a devotee about prayer until he discerns how God is guiding that soul. We should do the same.

[sign]Lord, to whom do we go?[/sign]

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim and Amox…

What is it you want to accomplish by posting the positive aspects of CP? Are you hoping that many will attempt it, including the original poster? Have you disregarded not only our cautions, but those of the saints who gave doctrinal instruction about the readiness of the person?

I realize we are at a point of no return, for you are not hearing that we do agree with you on CP’s worth, but you do not emend your thinking to consider readiness and potential harm to the reader by advocating it to anyone whomever. It will be a source of deep confusion, as I noticed in a couple of posts already. Nobody wants it to go away, Amox, and stay it will.

To casually exhort another to try it without anything else to advise them, seems rather foolhardy to me. No spiritual director worth his weight is going to speak to a devotee about prayer until he discerns how God is guiding that soul. We should do the same.

[sign]Lord, to whom do we go?[/sign]

Joy,
my point is to merely inform with correct information on Centering Prayer.

Father Keating never specifies that Centering Prayer is only for the advanced, but in fact has taught it to people who are relatively new to prayer.

Again, the confusion is on your part, not those of us who know what Centering Prayer actually is.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I’ve said all I have to say about Centering Prayer, there’s nothing that can be added that will bring value to the discusion. People have their heels dug in for or against, and that’s it.

For those who wish to understand it, I would suggest you read Father Keating’s works, online or in his books.

The Holy Spirit will be your guide.

Jim

 

[DBT]

Dave,
I beleive you misunderstood.

“I lay this charge upon you and implore you with all the power and force that the bond of charity can command. You are not to read it yourself or to others, or to copy it; nor are you to allow it so to be read in private or in public or copied willingly and deliberately, insofar as this is possible, **except by someone or to someone who, as far as you know, has resolved with steadfast determination, truly and sincerely to be a perfect follower of Christ; **and this not only in the active life, but in the contemplative life, at the highest point which a perfect soul in this present life can possibly reach, with the help of grace, whilst it still dwells in this mortal body.”

Jim

With all due respect, I don’t think I misunderstand at all

Clearly the author is talking about a relatively advanced soul . . . one who has proceeded far down the path of prayer and growth in virtue. Did you happen to notice how similar this discription is to what St. Teresa describes in the 3rd Mansion? These souls are clearly not beginners. That’s my entire point about “readiness.”

And if that’s not enough, what about the part that comes immediately after what you bolded?

and this not only in the active life, but in the contemplative life

“The Cloud” begins with a bang (sorry for the pun) . . . jumping right in to the type of discussion St. Teresa has in the 4th Mansions. This is the way of the contemplatives. The author of “The Cloud” felt no need to discuss the types of things St. Teresa talks about in Mansions 1-3 because all those issues were assumed already resolved in the individual this book was written for. This book was not a guide for the masses per se . . . but spiritual direction for a specific individual whom the author knew well.

In your quote, it seems clear to me the author of “The Cloud” felt a heavy dose of discernment was needed whether or not his book would be appropriate for any given soul. Do you view this admonishment as an open invitation to teach the tenets of CP to any soul that comes one’s way? I don’t think he does.

Jim, my fellow brother in Carmel, I just don’t think we’re on the same wavelength about this whole “readiness” issue. So rather than let things deterioriate, it’s probably best I take my leave of this. My points have been made . . . let the reader decide.

It’s been good talking with you . . .

Dave.

 

[TobyLue]

Here is another article regarding Centering Prayer. Also here To me with all these negatives and especially meditations that are derived from eastern mysticism, I would rather err on the side of caution and stay away completly. There are many, many other forms of meditation especially Lectio Divina. Why take a chance?