Have you read the book Laudato Si?

[phaster]

I’d be hesitant to cite Donald Wuerl…

FWIW

(ignoring politics/personality as much as possible) if you watch the video you’ll see Cardinal Donald Wuerl say about the pope

0:40 “what we get is the moral frame of reference by which we arrive at those policy positions”

1:01 “there is a human dimension to everything we do and that therefore carries with it a moral and ethical dimension”

then the news reporter brings up a clip of rush limbach who says

1:44 “essentially what this papal encyclical is that every Catholic should vote for the Democrat Party, how in the hell else do you interpret it when the Pope comes out and sounds like Al Gore on global warming”

the news reporter the asks wuerl to comment on what was said in the limbach clip,… wuerl responds

02:19 "what the Pope is doing is something very very different from [rush limbach] is saying

[basically in Laudato Si is saying ] why don’t we all discuss this" (which implies a moral frame of reference NOT a political one)

 

[phaster]

Global warming vs pollution. Everybody I know is against “pollution.” This would be dumping trashing in streets, rivers, lakes, and oceans. It would also be companies that have factories expelling all kinds of nasty things into the air or ground water. Then came “global warming,” which was on the heels of “we’re going to head into the next ice age.”

learned back in catholic high school that biblical authors wrote with symbolism in mind,… IOW their intent with stories (for lack of a better term) was to instill a spiritual/moral sense into their audience (who for the most part unable to read the text for themselves)

also thought about the fact that it was heresy by Wycliffe and Tyndale to translate the bible into english back in the 13th and 14th century

John Wycliffe - Wikipedia

Tyndale Bible - Wikipedia

I mention these facts because in many ways pope francis w/ laudato si is also trying to instill a spiritual/moral sense into people who for the most part are scientifically illiterate WRT physics, chemistry and biology, etc. (and studies from these various fields of science taken together point to the inconvenient fact that mankind is indeed the cause of global climate change)

FYI

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the difficult point those who do not have a formal university level science background to appreciate is subtle effects a green house molecule has on the atmosphere,… so instated consider the basic need for a human being to have water

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I mention people need water because its easy to imagine that an individual stuck in a desert w/ out any water to drink, will die in a few day

now lets consider the apparently true story of a drunk person drowning in a kitchen sink (which does not hold more than a few gals)

http://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2004-26.html

point being a small amount of something necessary for life (in the wrong place) can be deadly

although this might sound pretty far out there and alien at first, analyzing laudato si from the perspective of an OODA loop which is something I learned as a pilot (to prevent acting on impulsively on gut reactions), is very enlightening

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as I see things OODA loop analysis make me appreciate how difficult a task it is for the pope to instill a spiritual/moral sense into people who for the most part are scientifically illiterate about the only planet we have

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[arvo]

I read it only scarcely but I took entirely different message from it than is mentioned in this thread - Laudato sin and Pope speaks about integral ecology and integral development and it means that there is no ecology without care for the vulnerable people, for their bodies and soul. We should not care about nature only, we should care about people too and it is the integrality of this message.

Generally this article The Vatican's Journey From Anti-Communism to Anti-Capitalism - The Atlantic by The Atlantic summarizes the popes message clearly although The Atlantic wrote it before the Laudato Si.

Pope Francis is building his message on the one by Benedict XVI, who in Caritas in Veritate has real courage to say:

These processes have led to a downsizing of social security systems as the price to be paid for seeking greater competitive advantage in the global market, with consequent grave danger for the rights of workers, for fundamental human rights and for the solidarity associated with the traditional forms of the social State. Systems of social security can lose the capacity to carry out their task, both in emerging countries and in those that were among the earliest to develop, as well as in poor countries. Here budgetary policies, with cuts in social spending often made under pressure from international financial institutions, can leave citizens powerless in the face of old and new risks; such powerlessness is increased by the lack of effective protection on the part of workers’ associations. Through the combination of social and economic change, trade union organizations experience greater difficulty in carrying out their task of representing the interests of workers, partly because Governments, for reasons of economic utility, often limit the freedom or the negotiating capacity of labour unions. Hence traditional networks of solidarity have more and more obstacles to overcome. The repeated calls issued within the Church’s social doctrine, beginning with Rerum Novarum [60], for the promotion of workers’ associations that can defend their rights must therefore be honoured today even more than in the past, as a prompt and far-sighted response to the urgent need for new forms of cooperation at the international level, as well as the local level.

 

[arvo]

Benedict XVI message on the failures of marekt is very loud and clear:

The market is subject to the principles of so-called commutative justice , which regulates the relations of giving and receiving between parties to a transaction. But the social doctrine of the Church has unceasingly highlighted the importance of distributive justice and social justice for the market economy, not only because it belongs within a broader social and political context, but also because of the wider network of relations within which it operates. In fact, if the market is governed solely by the principle of the equivalence in value of exchanged goods, it cannot produce the social cohesion that it requires in order to function well. Without internal forms of solidarity and mutual trust, the market cannot completely fulfil its proper economic function . And today it is this trust which has ceased to exist, and the loss of trust is a grave loss.

I just wanted to stress this social dimension of Laudato Si and encyclicals of this decade.

And the big question is - are Republicans listening in this message of (conservative) Benedict XVI and (libearl) Francis? Can you name at least one powerful Republican who is taking into account in his or her decisions the Social teaching of the Catholic Church? Can you name the concrete decisions by this Republican? I can not do this.

It is so easily to make prohibitions on the people and then subjugate them into the full-force inhumane market capitalism and to extract any remaining wealth from the powerless people and fashion himself/herself as a Knight of the Lord only because of abortion laws and gay bashing. But it is not the Christian way. God have the free will. And God asks us to do more than just issue prohibitions on the other people.

 

[StudentMI]

That’s all fine and good, but still, it’s been said by much better commentators than Donald Wuerl.

(cough) McCarrick (cough)

 

[phaster]

I read it only scarcely but I took entirely different message from it than is mentioned in this thread - Laudato sin and Pope speaks about integral ecology and integral development and it means that there is no ecology without care for the vulnerable people, for their bodies and soul. We should not care about nature only, we should care about people too and it is the integrality of this message.

Generally this article The Vatican's Journey From Anti-Communism to Anti-Capitalism - The Atlantic by The Atlantic summarizes the popes message clearly although The Atlantic wrote it before the Laudato Si.

Pope Francis is building his message on the one by Benedict XVI, who in Caritas in Veritate has real courage to say:

I just wanted to stress this social dimension of Laudato Si and encyclicals of this decade.

And the big question is - are Republicans listening in this message of (conservative) Benedict XVI and (libearl) Francis?

FWIW the reason I suggest looking at Laudato Si from the view point of science instead of a political frame of reference is because traditional left vs right politics is akin to a clock pendulum that swings back and forth (yet the core problems are never addressed)

for example in political science there is something called the nolan chart that classifies where an individual/political-party based upon left vs right politics AND the amount of government

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but what I find lacking in this this political classification chart is something fundamental for long term viability of the system,… specifically scientific literacy AND a sense of balance

as I see things the reason the global community is having such a big mess w/ climate change and the pandemic is simply because political leaders and their partisan supporters are ignoring what science is saying

(for example)

Climate change and COVID-19: The denial playbook is the same

harsh truth is, in general the political right is blind to science AND the political left blind to fundamental economics

Left-wing populists cause hardship too

 

[phaster]

it’s been said by much better commentators than Donald Wuerl.

(cough) McCarrick (cough)

perhaps, but FWIW could not find a video that was short and more or less to the point,… then wanted to avoid the question(s) of political scandal

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[drjsp]

One of the problems Francis encounters with Laudato si’ is that in regard to the issue of “global warming”, “climate change” or whatever term you prefer, there has been so much politicizing what we know or don’t know about our planet that it’s difficult to know what is and what isn’t objective truth. Particularly skewed is the certainty of the notion of “man-made” climate change and the degree of negative effect on the planet.

Pope Francis pricked up some ears when addressing that notion and I’d have to agree with those who say he’s making some scientific presuppositions based on what may be flawed or politically influenced conclusions. Nonetheless, it’s an impressive document that outlines man’s responsibility to the rest of God’s creation.

 

[AlbMagno]

I think climate change is a very established and accepted theory among Climate Scientists and Environmental Chemists. The politicization only came in the last two decades or so, and is only wide spread in the US as far as I know.

 

[Maximian]

Do you find thatcthe development of doctrine respects the principle of non-contradiction?

 

[KMC]

So far…do you have a particular topic in mind with that question?

 

[Maximian]

No.

Im interested in the teaching approach

 

[KMC]

I think one where someone might say development violates that principle, but it does not, has to do with “no salvation outside the Church.”

 

[drjsp]

The unanswered question is to what degree man has had on climate change and that his been the most politicized, IMHO.

 

[phaster]

actually it takes longer than most people think,… after combustion a CO2 molecule stays in the atmosphere a number of human lifetimes

FYI

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the difficult point those who do not have a formal university level science background to appreciate is subtle effects a green house molecule has on the atmosphere,…

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also FWIW

too often people think they can be an expert in the topic which looking at the issue as a catholic is a sin of pride

What do you think of climate change?

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Pride | Catholic Answers

When Being Right is Wrong: The Deadly Sin of Pride

the reason I point out the sin of pride is because there are serious consequences when mistakes are made (and scientific issues are not taken seriously or dismissed as a hoax)

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[phaster]

been interested in the topic of the environment and climate change for decades because I’ve always liked multidisciplinary science problems (it give me an opportunity to learn new things)

anyway since I’ve been looking at the topic for a while, am trying to step back and illustrate step by step why everyone should not take climate science or laudato si lightly

starting off w/ the basic definition of what is pollution,… science tells us burning fossil fuels creates greenhouse gases which trap solar radiation in the atmosphere

the thing about a green house gas like carbon dioxide is it stays up in the atmosphere for up to a thousand years

people have a hard time grasping and dealing w/ how quickly things can change (like what is happening w/ this pandemic)

anyway we are where we are w/ many not believing that a virus we can’t see can cause so much harm,… sadly a greenhouse gas we can’t see can also cause lots of harm

since climate science has its own lingo that only another scientist understands, figure I would try my hand at illustrating and pointing out key concepts that hopefully makes all the mumbo jumbo understandable

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