Have you read the Book of Mormon?

[ParkerD]

What about the claims Joseph Smith puts around the circumstances of the discovery and translation of the book? Those are extra-textual, to be sure, so the book itself I don’t think makes claims about this, but don’t we have to evaluate the evidence there and try to establish objective truth about these events?

JHow,
I would expect that a genuine person with a genuine assignment from God to bring a book to the world, would explain how the book came to be if that was part of the assignment from God. I would equally expect that those living during his own time would have many reactions–some, knowing him and his family, would try to get the gold from him (which they did); others, being religious minded but protective of their own beliefs, would scorn any such possibility as another witness of Christ coming to the world, and would seek any way they possibly could to discredit his account of how the book came to be.

People react similarly today, finding all the external ways to discredit the book, discredit Joseph Smith, discredit the message and the teachings. But not once have a seen a piece of intelligent, fully thought out writing where the authenticity aspect of the Book of Mormon is explored. The scorners and the scoffers simply don’t go there, because there are too many other easier ways to discredit–thus they don’t even consider the words of the book itself in terms of their authenticity.

As a final point again, Christ wants people to be honest within their own heart, to be “authentic” about who they are, what their weaknesses are, thus how He can help them. The Book of Mormon kindles in sincere readers the desire to move toward that kind of a relationship with Christ, by example of the writers and by their teachings whether to their children or to their communities. It does that better than any book I know of.

 

[Javl]

JAVL,
Nothing you have written demonstrates that you do understand what I meant, nor has anything you have written demonstrated that you were paying one bit of attention when you “read” the Book of Mormon three times. Of course it wouldn’t appear authentic to one whose mind was on something else besides what they were reading.

You could easily show you have a memory of what you read. I wrote about there being situations in the Book of Mormon where a father counsels his sons and another father counsels his grandchildren. Those were memorable parts of the book.

How about showing some familiarity with those, or with anything from it memorable for you other than calling the book “Science fiction” which would never be its genre classification even if it were a novel?

Of course, anything I would say to define your version of “authentic” would be wrong. It would not be according to your definition and therefore I “would not understand it”. I’m sorry, my friend, I do not play those games. I stand by all my statements and assessment of the BoM. It is pure fantasy and it is definitely SciFi fodder, regardless of what you say. Unless you can prove, legitimately, as the Bible has been proven, that the BoM is real and from The God of the universe, I will remain very skeptical as to its “authenticity”.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[JHow]

…I would expect that a genuine person with a genuine assignment from God to bring a book to the world, would explain how the book came to be if that was part of the assignment from God. I would equally expect that those living during his own time would have many reactions–some, knowing him and his family, would try to get the gold from him (which they did); others, being religious minded but protective of their own beliefs, would scorn any such possibility as another witness of Christ coming to the world, and would seek any way they possibly could to discredit his account of how the book came to be…

No matter how “authentic” a person may feel it is when they react to the text, the circumstances of how the book came to be found and translated must be open to an examination by human reason. It is not the detractors and their motives that are most concerning, it is rather, the lack of evidence provided by supporters of the book that is most damning. “It’s a real historical book - take my word for it!” is not enough.

 

[ParkerD]

JHow and JAVL,
I realize I didn’t explain myself very well about the word “authenticity”. I see that I was still not understood. I have read your responses. I disagree, but evidently we are just not going to communicate effectively about those issues. Peace to each of you. I suggest the Book of Mormon is not something to spend any time reading given your frames of mind, but the Bible provides plenty to learn from, also, so the more time spent reading that and thinking about the words and the messages, the better unless it were at the exclusion of other important things to do.

Same goes for anyone else. The Book of Mormon is only for a person with a mind seeking truths from God and truths about life in general–not for people with a frame of mind trying to prove it wrong. That becomes an immediate waste of time.

 

[zaffiroborant]

LJ,

If the person doing the looking is used to thinking that everyone is wearing a “mask”, then they will assume every writer is wearing a mask also and they won’t detect authenticity because it will be beyond their expectations and the reality they create for themselves in their personal life.

And yet again we see your dismissing of others, if someone doesn’t see things the way you do it is due to some fault in themselves. News flash, whether or not some writing has “authenticity” is a subjective point of view. Authenticity is not a difficult concept to understand in spite of your posing to be the only one who gets it. But hey why pass up an easy “intellectual” brush off of other opinions on the “authenticity” of the BOM.

 

[ParkerD]

And yet again we see your dismissing of others, if someone doesn’t see things the way you do it is due to some fault in themselves. News flash, whether or not some writing has “authenticity” is a subjective point of view. Authenticity is not a difficult concept to understand in spite of your posing to be the only one who gets it. But hey why pass up an easy “intellectual” brush off of other opinions on the “authenticity” of the BOM.

Zaffiroborant or anyone else,

I guess I need to pose a bit of an exercise to see if “authenticity” can be detected. Following are three quotes. One has authenticity, in that the words really came from actual experience out of someone’s mind. Another is a fictional situation. See if you can detect which is authentic and which is fiction. The third is either authentic or fictional and is placed so that the example is a bit more complex than just an either/or choice. (Choose using no search helps.)

Example A: “Whenever I find myself growing grim about the mouth; whenever it is a damp, drizzly November in my soul; whenever I find myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses, and bringing up the rear of every funeral I meet; and especially whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people’s hats off–then, I account it high time to get to sea as soon as I can. This is my substitute for pistol and ball. With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship.”

Example B: “Women should be respected as well! Generally speaking, men are held in great esteem in all parts of the world, so why shouldn’t women have their share? Soldiers and war heroes are honored and commemorated, explorers are granted immortal fame, martyrs are revered, but how many people look upon women too as soldiers?..Women, who struggle and suffer pain to ensure the continuation of the human race, make much tougher and more courageous soldiers than all those big-mouthed freedom-fighting heroes put together!”

Example C: “The mere speculative conviction that it was our interest to be completely virtuous was not sufficient to prevent our slipping, and that the contrary habits must be broken, and good ones acquired and established, before we can have any dependence on a steady, uniform rectitude of conduct.”

Hey, have some fun!

 

[JHow]

JHow and JAVL,
I realize I didn’t explain myself very well about the word “authenticity”. I see that I was still not understood. I have read your responses. I disagree, but evidently we are just not going to communicate effectively about those issues. Peace to each of you. I suggest the Book of Mormon is not something to spend any time reading given your frames of mind, but the Bible provides plenty to learn from, also, so the more time spent reading that and thinking about the words and the messages, the better unless it were at the exclusion of other important things to do.

Same goes for anyone else. The Book of Mormon is only for a person with a mind seeking truths from God and truths about life in general–not for people with a frame of mind trying to prove it wrong. That becomes an immediate waste of time.

With all due respect, either we can agree that external evidence of the book’s origins can be examined and critiqued rationally or we can’t. If we can’t then there really is no point in further discussion.

The “authenticity” of the text is an independent question from whether or not the original text even existed.

 

[Javl]

JHow and JAVL,
I realize I didn’t explain myself very well about the word “authenticity”. I see that I was still not understood. I have read your responses. I disagree, but evidently we are just not going to communicate effectively about those issues. Peace to each of you. I suggest the Book of Mormon is not something to spend any time reading given your frames of mind, but the Bible provides plenty to learn from, also, so the more time spent reading that and thinking about the words and the messages, the better unless it were at the exclusion of other important things to do.

Same goes for anyone else. The Book of Mormon is only for a person with a mind seeking truths from God and truths about life in general–not for people with a frame of mind trying to prove it wrong. That becomes an immediate waste of time.

Sorry Parker. There is ONLY ONE BOOK IN EXISTENCE THAT CONTAINS ALL OF GOD’S TRUTHS AND THAT IS THE HOLY BIBLE. The Bible stands alone. It needs no “key” ( Christian Science ), no explanation ( Watchtower Society ), no adjunct ( Book of Mormon ), or any thing else. All these listed are “another gospel” which all Christians are warned against. The Bible is for all true believers who are seeking the truth, nothing else is required.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Parker:

Why do you have such a fixation on “authenticity” of the BoM ? Neither I nor any of the other non-LDS on this thread see anything that is, or may be, “authentic” in the BoM ( other than the verses copied from the Bible ). The occurances are all fictional, there is no basis in fact, and they cannot be proven to be “authentic” no matter what the definition of “authentic” is or may be.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[LongJourney]

It is again an example of the circular reasoning that so many Mormons use. They have faith in their book, because the LDS faith requires it.

 

[Pahoran]

It is again an example of the circular reasoning that so many Mormons use. They have faith in their book, because the LDS faith requires it.

LJ,

every now and then you say something which makes me wonder whether you have ever actually met a believing Latter-day Saint. And that’s one of them.

I read the Book of Mormon from beginning to end; even the difficult bits. I pondered what I was reading. And I prayed to know if it was true. The Holy Ghost testified to my spirit that it is.

I am not alone in having had such an experience.

I recognise that you have not; and so I understand your scepticism. However, you ought not to project your own evidence-free speculations into the minds of others.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[LongJourney]

However, you ought not to project your own evidence-free speculations into the minds of others.

LOL EVIDENCE-FREE??? You haven’t read that link to my 550 page book, have you? However, you have the perfect right to not read it. Anyone who chooses, can.

And, yes, I have met some good Mormons, but I have also experienced some very bad, but “faithful” Mormons. Their gossip and judgmental attitudes and religious bigotry and racism was beyond belief.