Have you stopped seeking truth or have you given up and just accepted your faith tradition without question?

[St_Francis]

…continued from above

1. I’ve never felt the Holy Spirit. I have never had my mind and body entered by Him such that I have the faith and knowledge to believe.

In order to receive grace (not *feel *it, but receive it), God must give us a little bit of grace so that we can and will decide to predispose ourselves to receiving His grace. If you simply decide out of the blue one day to pray for God’s grace, even tho you didn’t *feel *that initial bit, you had it. And if you pray for it, you will get more, whether you feel it or not.

(And why is someone who believes in scientific proof using feelings as a measure anyway )

1. My education has let me take into scope the world in a secular manner. The more I observed, the more I saw that religions are tantamount to tradition and superstition.

I too had a very secular education, so I know where you are coming from. But consider this: either one of the multitudes of solutions that humanity knows of is correct, or none. 99.9999999999999% are wrong, and maybe even 100%! So, naturally when we look at the various religious or a-religious expressions, we find a lot of different things, because most people are shooting for something but not hitting the bullseye in what they are doing.

However, what is really remarkable is that there is so much *similarity! *Sure, one group may say you can only have 1 wife, and another 4 wives, but they do agree about *marriage. *Even those who believe you can have as many wives as you can support still consider adultery an evil act.

Consider too that all societies agree on what constitutes virtue. Even in our debased society, we admire courage, unselfishness, industriousness. And you won’t find a society which is based on admiring cowardliness, selfishness, and laziness, will you?

While the outward expressions of different cultures vary, there are still important underlying similarities.

Sociologically and and anthropologically, all religions dance to the same subtle beat, they all look for the same answers to the same questions,

Yes, that would make total sense, no? When different people are trying to come up with solutions to the same problem, their solutions often have a lot of similarity.

they all revolve around tradition,

Cultural traditions are very important to social cohesion.

they all evolve to fit the times

Except the Catholic Church.

and they all rely on a higher power.

Apparently Buddhism does not teach a deity, and of course atheism does not.

Some of these are gross simplifications, but lets just say I can see past the smoke and mirrors.

My intent in this was not to offend, but just to answer your question.

I’ll overlook the smoke and mirrors comment then

The difference between you and me then is that I feel life has intrinsic meaning outside of God.

Do you have scientific evidence for this?

Yes, some people require scientific evidence to differentiate knowledge from faith.

But that is a standard set by the individual.

The use of the term “better” is relative in this context. I would say that if you’re gay that you are not better off.

My reply to this became so long that I decided that if you wanted to discuss it, it would be better off in its own thread.

I see this as a protectionist force. If everyone lives the same way, adhering to the same morals, then life becomes simpler, which is great for a variety of reasons. However, this is not the world we live in, and there are many moral structures in the world. **These differences in morality only support the idea the morality is relative to the culture, and not intrinsic to people. **

Remember the similarities I mentioned above? In reality, the basis for a stable society generally contains very similar elements, altho perhaps expressed in different ways.

People convert in and out of all types of religion including atheism (practical or overt). I would say that people convert for many different reasons but this does not in any way provide evidence that one or another system of thought is correct.

Therefore, I believe this goes to show that what He taught is true if you’re believer that He is always right.

Whether what Christ taught is true is either correct or incorrect; it cannot be correct only for those who believe. Either those who believe are right, or those who do not believe are right, but you can’t have both groups being right.

 

[St_Francis]

I understand. There a lot of different ideologies out there

It is true that there are many things I take on faith during the day. It is also true that I can be wrong in my faith because I don’t truly know. I might have faith that everyone is going to obey traffic lights, but all it takes is for one person to run a red light to refute my faith as false. Not in all cases mind you, but in this specific instance of faith.

Without the faith that people will stop for red lights, you would be paralyzed with fear and unable to drive.

We know that 99.9% of the time in the US, people will stop for red lights. It is therefore reasonable to have faith that for the most part, people will stop, but we also know that it is reasonable to be somewhat cautious as that .1% runs the red light. It would be unreasonable to think, Gee, .1% of the time, people *do ***run red lights, so maybe I should not drive through an intersection when the light is green unless all the perpendicular lanes are fully stocked with fully stopped cars.

Why? There are those that feel the virgin birth isn’t true, and then there are those that hold fast to the belief that it is. What is the cut off point for what is reasonable or what isn’t? Or, is it the case that faith can apply at all times if someone has it.

Feelings, nothing more than feelings… well, first, you don’t base your faith on feelings!

The reason Christ established the Catholic Church is that He wanted there to be a way that people would know the Truth and that the Truth would be protected. That is why one of the Apostles wrote that the *Church *is the pillar and ground of Truth.

it is very reasonable to believe in the Virgin Birth if you take as your starting point that God created the world. If He could do that, then creating a Child in a woman’s womb would be very simple and not disturb her virginity at all.

Sure. Most of these are quick and off the top of my head, I didn’t have a lot of time to collectively gather and articulate everything perfectly.

1. Logically, the claim of a God is so outrageous that it requires a large amount of supporting evidence that I have yet to see or experience.

Wow, that’s my reaction to materialist evolution!

1. Any time I have needed God for anything, either as a child or teen, I have been remorsefully let down. The lack of my prayers being answered at every given point was a large set back in my faith. The less God made himself known to me the less known to me he became.

I read a little story once about a woman whose very young daughter came down with a life-threatening fever. The parents rushed the child to the hospital, where the parents helped the ER staff put ice wrapped in towels on the child to lower her temperature.

The child cried with the shock and pain of this, and begged her mother to stop, but the mother knew that if she stopped, her daughter would die.

Yes, it is true that God frequently says No to our prayers. Growing up, my parents frequently said no to me also, and now that I have children of my own, I understand their point of view a lot more! When we ask for things selfishly, when we ask for things which God sees will not be good for us, when we ask for things which conflict with God’s Will, He says no.

Because God created us, He actually owes us nothing. Everything we get is a gift from Him, and we should thank Him for what we have rather than complaining over what we don’t have…

continued…**

 

[St_Francis]

Argh!!!

I suppose by now that anyone reading my two posts above will see that they got posted in the wrong order… And I didn’t find out about it until it was too late to switch them around.

 

[lynx]

…continued from above

Oh no! Second half before the first half. Well that’s ok. I’ll reply to the first half when I get home.

If you simply decide out of the blue one day to pray for God’s grace, even tho you didn’t *feel *that initial bit, you had it. And if you pray for it, you will get more, whether you feel it or not.

I tried for about 15 years. Is that enough?

(And why is someone who believes in scientific proof using feelings as a measure anyway )

Because I had already given the scientific no. Albeit tough to believe, I believe I have a good idea of how God works even while disbelieving. So, assuming God did exist, it’s true he might not be found in scientific method. Fine, but that means that if I play by the Christian rules I want the same response from God, and I didn’t get it.

Consider too that all societies agree on what constitutes virtue. Even in our debased society, we admire courage, unselfishness, industriousness. And you won’t find a society which is based on admiring cowardliness, selfishness, and laziness, will you?

True, but this is true of any group, religion need not apply. So what does this tell you about group dynamics and human behavior? The fact that we see it repeated yet different supports the idea that we have a need for a system of belief, religious or otherwise.

When different people are trying to come up with solutions to the same problem, their solutions often have a lot of similarity.

Or it could be people think the same way, it depends on the problem. The tougher the question the greater the opinion varies on the answer. Look at how religions see the after life or the beginning of mankind. These answers can be radically different from the Christian standard.

Cultural traditions are very important to social cohesion.

In doing things together we bond, regardless of tradition. Tradition is used to make sure we do stuff together.

Except the Catholic Church.

I disagree. The Catholic church makes room and adapts to scientific discovery, example heliocentrism.

Apparently Buddhism does not teach a deity, and of course atheism does not.

Buddhism does recognize external powers, but no one true God. Atheism is not a religion because it completely lacks faith.

I’ll overlook the smoke and mirrors comment then

LOL, that’s good cuz i’m sticking to it like glue

Do you have scientific evidence for this?

I have mostly logical, but I can throw in some scientific evidence. What place do people have in the world? What place to we have in life? What is the aim of life? The aim is to thrive and reproduce. As such, if you are alive and well, it should be your goal to thrive and reproduce (this is not always a physical element). If we look at an ant, it clearly knows its role to itself and its society. Seeing as we are much smarter and more capable than other creatures it behooves us to have a greater sense of global morality and responsibility. Therefore, not only should we as people seek to live happy lives and reproduce, we should look to maintain our environment and its resources so future populations can thrive better than us. This is the logical aspect. The scientific aspect would be to observe ant and bee colonies, or really any group of living organisms to see what being alive ultimately means for them. Example, a guard ant’s life will probably consist of only guarding a colony; nothing more nothing less. While this is mostly observational, it contains a hypothesis that is testable, gains conclusive empirical results through testing, and is repeatable. Of course this is a very complex experiment, so opinions on the results will vary, but they’ll become more accurate in time.

But that is a standard set by the individual.

I thought it was set by the dictionary. But it can also be set by the individual, it just doesn’t make an sense to me. If you faith in something why do you need proof? To absolutely validate faith seems like you don’t have faith at all.

My reply to this became so long that I decided that if you wanted to discuss it, it would be better off in its own thread.

If you feel it can be done without a lot of gay bashing then go for it.

Remember the similarities I mentioned above?

No, I have the memory of a goldfish

People convert in and out of all types of religion including atheism (practical or overt). I would say that people convert for many different reasons but this does not in any way provide evidence that one or another system of thought is correct.

I’m not saying Christianity is wrong, i’m saying I don’t believe in God.

Whether what Christ taught is true is either correct or incorrect; it cannot be correct only for those who believe. Either those who believe are right, or those who do not believe are right, but you can’t have both groups being right.

I believe I can. Right and wrong become completely subjective when introducing a higher power. The feelings one can feel and experience must force them to believe, and are as real as you or me. However, if someone else from a completely different ideology has no idea what you’re talking about or feeling does that make it any less real? If we’re talking about the tangible then one can discern reality from fantasy, otherwise reality is in the mind of the believer.

 

[lynx]

Without the faith that people will stop for red lights, you would be paralyzed with fear and unable to drive.

We all have fear. I don’t let fear run my life.

We know that 99.9% of the time in the US, people will stop for red lights. It is therefore reasonable to have faith that for the most part, people will stop, but we also know that it is reasonable to be somewhat cautious as that .1% runs the red light. It would be unreasonable to think, Gee, .1% of the time, people *do *****run red lights, so maybe I should not drive through an intersection when the light is green unless all the perpendicular lanes are fully stocked with fully stopped cars.

Validating my example that faith can be misplaced, even if .1% of the time, is not going to help your position. For something to be true it must true all the time. If your faith is shown to be false it is false.
St Francis;6655458:

Feelings, nothing more than feelings… well, first, you don’t base your faith on feelings!

The reason Christ established the Catholic Church is that He wanted there to be a way that people would know the Truth and that the Truth would be protected. That is why one of the Apostles wrote that the *Church *

is the pillar and ground of Truth.

it is very reasonable to believe in the Virgin Birth if you take as your starting point that God created the world. If He could do that, then creating a Child in a woman’s womb would be very simple and not disturb her virginity at all.

Assuming God exists this sounds reasonable. But the existence of God is a big leap. Also, the virgin birth goes against science as we know it. So, it has a lot going against it.

Wow, that’s my reaction to materialist evolution!

What? There’s evidence everywhere supporting the truth of evolution, so much that even the Church believes it to be truth. What do you mean?

I read a little story once about a woman whose very young daughter came down with a life-threatening fever. The parents rushed the child to the hospital, where the parents helped the ER staff put ice wrapped in towels on the child to lower her temperature.

The child cried with the shock and pain of this, and begged her mother to stop, but the mother knew that if she stopped, her daughter would die.

Yes, it is true that God frequently says No to our prayers. Growing up, my parents frequently said no to me also, and now that I have children of my own, I understand their point of view a lot more! When we ask for things selfishly, when we ask for things which God sees will not be good for us, when we ask for things which conflict with God’s Will, He says no.

Because God created us, He actually owes us nothing. Everything we get is a gift from Him, and we should thank Him for what we have rather than complaining over what we don’t have…

Good job with anecdote. God doesn’t answer prayers. Faith in God is misplaced. You have proven it to me well. The foolishness of this anecdote is comparing those who cry against God as children. Well here’s one for you, a woman at the high school prom feels pain in her abdomen. She takes her date to the back of the school. She eventually gives birth to her son. Her date, the father, decides to leave the child in a dumpster. He has given life to his boy, placed him the safety of a cozy dumpster, obviously his obligations are over.

By the way, i’m pretty pissed off that you have so carelessly shrugged off my past pain as complaining. I hate you more now than anyone i’ve hated in years. You know so little about me; where you get off denouncing my suffering as complaining i’ll never understand. I’ve been thinking about what I can possibly say to make you feel ****, as much as I feel right now. Sitting here just thinking…

 

[eucharisteo]

Argh!!!

I suppose by now that anyone reading my two posts above will see that they got posted in the wrong order… And I didn’t find out about it until it was too late to switch them around.

Back away from the keyboard!

You need a break.

Lynx, I’m sure you’ve heard this already. But, belief is God’s grace manifested in the form of faith. Faith is the belief in things hoped for. It’s in our nature, but God allows us to reject Him. I’ve read and heard someone say that when someone dies and dies in the state of lacking grace, lat it they reject God, they are choosing hell over God and God gives them what they want. They would be in more pain to be with God eternally than to spend an eternity in hell away from Him. It’s an interesting analogy.

There are a lot of bad things in the world. There are a lot of bad people in the world. Each person ultimately chooses their fate, but because God transcends time and space he already knows what we will choose. This infinitely blows my mind. I never understood or even thought about what predestination and free will. It sounds like a contradiction. But it is God that gives me the grace to accept something that sounds insane. To not believe is to deny my humanity. I am nothing without God. Without God I would do everything in my power to end my life so that I wouldn’t have to spend one more minute in this cruel dark world.

Having worked in government and the people and cultures I’ve been exposed to in my years is enough to say man is evil. Sure there is some good no doubt. But apparently God sees something in us that we just don’t understand. He sees something in me that I don’t see. I would just assume terminate anyone that crossed me if it were not for my love for God, which gives me the ability to love others. Life’s been unfairly difficult for me. But somehow early in my life I caught the message God gives us what we need, not what we want. Sometimes he allows us to have what we think we want and we experience all the absence in that desire.

God loved me first by giving me the grace to believe. That in essence makes me feel special. I have found Him. I hope you have found what you truly desire, because this is probably it for you I think. I personally can’t find the will power within me to trust anyone that does not believe in God. To not believe in God leads me to believe they can not believe in man. You see, non-believers have nothing holding them back from committing the worst crimes. For those who have a conscience, guilt is an inconvenience. What’s worse than being someone that does not believe?..being someone that once believed yet rid themselves of all belief in God. But I do have hope, evident in that I do not believe that most people claiming to be atheist are not truly atheist. They push their disbelief so hard that they in essence proclaim their faith of disbelief. Which means they had to believe so that they could reject. They are most likely agnostic. Just my personal observation. I’ve come close to not believing but feel fortunate that God gave me the grace to me to believe in him. The difference is that I answered that call with belief rather than rejection.

I feel sorry for non-believers because they must feel pretty much alone. Do you feel alone? How did you become atheist? What event in your life led up to rejecting God? That’s about as honest as I can get about the subject of atheism.

 

[St_Francis]

…By the way, i’m pretty pissed off that you have so carelessly shrugged off my past pain as complaining. I hate you more now than anyone i’ve hated in years. You know so little about me; where you get off denouncing my suffering as complaining i’ll never understand. I’ve been thinking about what I can possibly say to make you feel ****, as much as I feel right now. Sitting here just thinking…

I guess I am not the best person to talk with you about these things then.

I apologize for the pain I have caused you by using the word complain. FWIW, I did not mean it as whinging. Please consider too that I do not know you, nor you me, and so I have no idea about what you have suffered. If I had known you better, I would probably have used a different word.

I will continue to pray for you, take care!

 

[benedictus2]

Have you stopped seeking truth or have you given up and just accepted your faith tradition without question?

There was a time when I was a Catholic very happy to be Catholic but just content with what I knew and sort of existed on the policy of live and let live (I look back on that now and it was really just laziness).

Then I met a Protestant who questioned what I believed. That got me into reading, into CAF and a wonderful odyssey of faith experience.

Do I still seek theTruth? Yes and No. No because I know I have found the Truth. Yes because I only apprehend a tiny bit of it. But as I do more reading I get to grasp a little bit more and a little bit more. When I get to heaven then I will truly know.

Whoa! what a ride it has been and continues to be

Praised be to the Trinity who is Truth. Thanks be to Christ for leaving us His Church to guide into knowledge of Him who is Truth.

 

[benedictus2]

First, the Church tells us that God can be known by Natural (non-faith) reason.

I was listening to Catholic Radio last Saturday. Speaking was a Jewish convert to Catholicism. He related how some young people who studied what the Church taught about the world regarding people and relationships realized it was true in a practical way. This caused them to also realize that if the Church teaches the truth about practical living then perhaps the Church also teaches the truth about spiritual things. This caused some to return to the Church or enter the Church.

The interviewer then asked this man if he thought the Church was a truth telling institution. And, of course, he said, it is. So, on two levels: our day to day life and relationships, and our relationship with God, the Church is telling the truth.

Those who believe need to read their Bible and their Catechism. Ignorance about the Bible is ignorance of Christ. Ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding before you read, and I suggest not reading a lot in one sitting.

Finally, there are many intriguing ideas out there, all competing for our attention. Be sober, be vigilant. Or as a sign on a Church I passed read, Avoid truth decay. Read your Bible.

God bless,
Ed

Very well said. I might add though that where there are intriguing and competing ideas, the best bet is to pass it by the lens of Magisterial teaching.

 

[Lutheranteach]

While I was born with the ability to have faith in God, and do. I was also born with the total inability to join lockstep and without question those that teach any faith, point of view, philosophical adherence, etc. And I have to admit I look upon those that do with a certain amount of trepidation. I am very much an independent when it comes to such things. I always seek the truth and am immediately doubtful of anyone who says they have it.

 

[eucharisteo]

… I always seek the truth and am immediately doubtful of anyone who says they have it.

spoken like one seeking truth

 

[benedictus2]

While I was born with the ability to have faith in God, and do. I was also born with the total inability to join lockstep and without question those that teach any faith, point of view, philosophical adherence, etc. And I have to admit I look upon those that do with a certain amount of trepidation. I am very much an independent when it comes to such things. I always seek the truth and am immediately doubtful of anyone who says they have it.

You are seeking truth and don’t know that in Christ you have found the truth so are you still looking for truth elsewhere ?

And how will you know if you have found it?

 

[benedictus2]

But apparently God sees something in us that we just don’t understand. He sees something in me that I don’t see.

Someone once wrote that since Christ dwells in us, when the Father looks at us, it is His Son who looks back at Him

I would just assume terminate anyone that crossed me if it were not for my love for God, which gives me the ability to love others.

Yes, yes, yes to that. I can only love others because I love God. Others matter because they matter to God. And this is what I pray : that what matters to Him will matter to me.

 

[eucharisteo]

Someone once wrote that since Christ dwells in us, when the Father looks at us, it is His Son who looks back at Him
Yes, yes, yes to that. I can only love others because I love God. Others matter because they matter to God. And this is what I pray : that what matters to Him will matter to me.

Fiat Voluntas Tua

 

[edwest2]

We all have fear. I don’t let fear run my life.

Validating my example that faith can be misplaced, even if .1% of the time, is not going to help your position. For something to be true it must true all the time. If your faith is shown to be false it is false.

Assuming God exists this sounds reasonable. But the existence of God is a big leap. Also, the virgin birth goes against science as we know it. So, it has a lot going against it.

What? There’s evidence everywhere supporting the truth of evolution, so much that even the Church believes it to be truth. What do you mean?

Good job with anecdote. God doesn’t answer prayers. Faith in God is misplaced. You have proven it to me well. The foolishness of this anecdote is comparing those who cry against God as children. Well here’s one for you, a woman at the high school prom feels pain in her abdomen. She takes her date to the back of the school. She eventually gives birth to her son. Her date, the father, decides to leave the child in a dumpster. He has given life to his boy, placed him the safety of a cozy dumpster, obviously his obligations are over.

By the way, i’m pretty pissed off that you have so carelessly shrugged off my past pain as complaining. I hate you more now than anyone i’ve hated in years. You know so little about me; where you get off denouncing my suffering as complaining i’ll never understand. I’ve been thinking about what I can possibly say to make you feel ****, as much as I feel right now. Sitting here just thinking…

The Church believes evolution to be the truth? Where does it say that?

God bless,
Ed

 

[CMatt25]

I always seek the truth and am immediately doubtful of anyone who says they have it.

Me too. For me it’s because when someone twists truth with faith and belief that raises a red flag for me. No one and that includes Catholics can say with 100% absolute certainty they have the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Oh sure we like to think we do but in reality it is actually a matter of faith and belief. Every single tradition can justify their beliefs.

Our earthly journeys are lifelong paths as we seek truth and in faith walk with His Spirit. But humans are human with finite understanding. And thus attaining a perfect infallible knowledge of the absolute 100% certain truth will not be assured until He comes again.

With faith it is then when we shall achieve the absolute truth we seek. With the hope of reaching where by faith He is seated at the right hand of God today. Basking in His heavenly presence for all eternity.

God bless each of us as we journey. Peace.

 

[eucharisteo]

The Church believes evolution to be the truth? Where does it say that?

God bless,
Ed

You mean you haven’t read 3 John Chapter 2:1-4

1For thou shalt teach the heretics the truth that they from the monkey they were descendeth.
2From monkey they were were born and to monkey they shall returneth.
3Admonish those that to do not believeth in the money.
They shall not inheret the Kingdom of God.
These heretics are anathema.

 

[LittleSoldier]

By the way, i’m pretty pissed off that you have so carelessly shrugged off my past pain as complaining. I hate you more now than anyone i’ve hated in years. You know so little about me; where you get off denouncing my suffering as complaining i’ll never understand. I’ve been thinking about what I can possibly say to make you feel ****, as much as I feel right now. Sitting here just thinking…

Oh wow, Lynx, somebody hit a button. I used to feel so desperate and I prayed and prayed and absolutely nothing happened. I remember reading about faith in the bible and I thought that God would love me if I showed even the smallest amount of faith, and maybe He would even answer a prayer. He didn’t. I would cry myself to sleep because I honestly didn’t know what to do. It seems that in the bible people would do something like touch Jesus’ robe and He would turn around and say something like “You’re faith is amazing! Your daughter has been healed!” or something like that.

It sounded so good. I kept thinking I could do something like that and I would try, but it didn’t work.

It (and other things) got so bad that I tried to take my life a couple of times. I don’t know what the answer is. My faith is weak. I just feel so bad for you right now. I wonder how many people have felt so discouraged by praying and not receiving even a feeling in return. I’ve been there so many times.

I just wanted you to know I know you weren’t complaining; you were being very honest about something that bothers you. It bothers me, too. I wish I could help but I don’t know how.

 

[benedictus2]

You mean you haven’t read 3 John Chapter 2:1-4

1For thou shalt teach the heretics the truth that they from the monkey they were descendeth.
2From monkey they were were born and to monkey they shall returneth.
3Admonish those that to do not believeth in the money.
They shall not inheret the Kingdom of God.
These heretics are anathema.

And of bananas you shall eat until the day you die.

 

[StrawberryJam]

The Church believes evolution to be the truth? Where does it say that?

God bless,
Ed

Your question for the day is your concern about the catholic church’s teaching on evolution after reading Lynx’s post.

You started a thread in the back fence about evolution, a banned topic.

You simply amaze me.

Not to mention your dismissal of what your church does accept on the topic of evolution.

I’m not surprized about the dismissal of a human being you are sharing discussion with here though.