Having a personal relationship with Mary

[thirdworld]

The Blessed Virgin Mary is responsible for me converting to Catholicism and becoming religious and serious about my faith in Jesus Christ. I have always felt a connection with her and I feel that she has been there for me even when I was not devoted. “Do whatever He tells you.” is the message Mary has been sending through the centuries in the Bible and through apparitions. Devotion to the Blessed Mother is a way of honoring God. She is the Mother of God, our Savior and is the most important woman in history. She deserves respect, love, and honor. She does not deserve adoration which is reserved for God alone, and Catholicism does not encourage or condone this. I can have a personal relationship with my heavenly Mother and her Son, there is no competition. Mary is not divine, her Son is, I would be silly to worship her. The whole reason Catholics and Orthodox Christians honor Mary is because of Jesus Christ without Him she is not worthy of our veneration, it’s all about Jesus. Of course, you don’t have to honor Mary, that’s up to you. But Mary loves all her children and wants to assist (through the power of her Son, none of her own power) you in your journey to salvation. I need all the help I can get personally so I choose to have devotion to my Mother.

 

[david_ruiz]

No. He was talking to the Church He founded. Those who depart from that are no longer in a position to inherit these promises.

There are three levels of priesthood, foreshadowed in the OT, and fulfilled in the New. There is the High Priest, the ministerial priesthood,a nd the priesthood of all believers.
There are differences of authority and tasks for each.

No. All the baptized are called to preach the gospel, but binding and loosing is a power given to those Jesus placed in authority over His flock.

Sure. You can call it that.

yes, but Catholics find it most expedient to confess them to those to whom Jesus gave the power to remit them.

My point was that when Mary is given to John by Jesus at the cross it does not apply to us either .It was meant for John and Mary.Yes ,we can glean from the story ,just as I’m sure you would say we glean from the above situations. But it is NOT like someone here said ,that Jesus was talking to all of us ,and Mary is our mother now.Just as you seperated us from some of Jesus 's words (the above scenarios) , I do here. Mary is the mother of Jesus …John was to care for her.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Actually God is responsible. He used Mary and worked His will through her to bring you to the Church

The Blessed Virgin Mary is responsible for me converting to Catholicism and becoming religious and serious about my faith in Jesus Christ. I have always felt a connection with her and I feel that she has been there for me even when I was not devoted. “Do whatever He tells you.” is the message Mary has been sending through the centuries in the Bible and through apparitions. Devotion to the Blessed Mother is a way of honoring God. She is the Mother of God, our Savior and is the most important woman in history. She deserves respect, love, and honor. She does not deserve adoration which is reserved for God alone, and Catholicism does not encourage or condone this. I can have a personal relationship with my heavenly Mother and her Son, there is no competition. Mary is not divine, her Son is, I would be silly to worship her. The whole reason Catholics and Orthodox Christians honor Mary is because of Jesus Christ without Him she is not worthy of our veneration, it’s all about Jesus. Of course, you don’t have to honor Mary, that’s up to you. But Mary loves all her children and wants to assist (through the power of her Son, none of her own power) you in your journey to salvation. I need all the help I can get personally so I choose to have devotion to my Mother.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Whether the Hebrew word for the Holy Spirit is a feminine word or not, scripture tells us clearly that that God is Spirit and is to be worshipped in spirit. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit…no room for Mary there.

If the Holy Spirit is not guiding what you refer too as the Holy Church, then it is simply not a Christian organization.

Jesus is in Heaven in Body and Spirit. remember after He arose He ate with the disciples. We believe in the resurrection of the body.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Actually God is responsible. He used Mary and worked His will through her to bring you to the Church

No, we believe Mary is a deity…

 

[rinnie]

My point was that when Mary is given to John by Jesus at the cross it does not apply to us either .It was meant for John and Mary.Yes ,we can glean from the story ,just as I’m sure you would say we glean from the above situations. But it is NOT like someone here said ,that Jesus was talking to all of us ,and Mary is our mother now.Just as you seperated us from some of Jesus 's words (the above scenarios) , I do here. Mary is the mother of Jesus …John was to care for her.

Yes actually it was someone here that said that Jesus was talking to us. It was revealed to us from the Holy Spirit. That teaching was given to us from the Catholic Church. And the Advocate the Holy Spirit is indeed here in the CC.

Are you sure you were raised Catholic? If you were you should have caught that one

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

No, we believe Mary is a deity…

She’s the wisdom deity, right?

'Cuz see, when I find myself in times of trouble, mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom. And she says, “Let it be.”

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Just don’t start singin’ Maggie May or Mean Mr. Mustard ok!

She’s the wisdom deity, right?

'Cuz see, when I find myself in times of trouble, mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom. And she says, “Let it be.”

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

No, we believe Mary is a deity…

 

[david_ruiz]

David, I think the history and reasoning is flawed here. The OT priesthood was a foreshadowing of the New priesthood established by Christ. The Hebrew priesthood could not offer valid sacrifices, just the blood of animals and a sincere heart. The Early Church did indeed have a priesthood very very early on. Crack open the Didache and read it. It an early second century worship manual of sorts and it points toward the sacrificial nature of the priesthood, discusses liturgy and worship, sacrifice, the Eucharist, etc. I’d also encourage you to read the Early Fathers, all of whom believed in a priesthood, not a mere council of elders in a presbyterian model. In the very primitive Church the Christians were in a cocoon of sorts. They were still worshipping in the synagogue and things were in their infancy. We see presbyteros used interchangeably with episkopos, etc. But very, very quickly we see differentiation. Episkopos is the bishop, the ultimate shepherd. The presbyteros helps the bishop. With time and the outrageous growth (thanks be to God!) of the parishes, bishops could no longer handle performing every wedding, every baptism, every Eucharistic celebration, so they started delegating some of it to the presbyterate.

Don’t you find it odd that in the East (Orthodox) lands there is a sacrificial priesthood so early AND in the West (Catholic) there is a sacrificial priesthood, then in the Coptic lands, and on and on? There is not one community that had a Calvinist/Presbyterian elders/pastors model that you can point to in the second century?

Also, regarding your reference to the High Priest being Christ Jesus, presumably from Hebrews, you’re correct. Jesus is our only HIGH priest. And you’re right, we’re all priests, but not as you think. The clerical priests of Catholicism, Orthodoxy, etc. merely share in the same priesthood of Christ and are an extension of his Sacramental power through humanity. We are the body of Christ as the Church. Through the clergy Christ’s priesthood lives, breathes, sacrifices Himself for us, forgives us, baptizes us, counsels us, etc. The priesthood of all believers in Catholicism refers to the vocation we all have as Christians to teach, preach the Good News, be fishers of men, good examples, and stewards of Christ’s sacraments as well. But we are not ordained and able to convey these channels of grace as individuals. Paul talks about how each person has a unique vocation, ability given by God, and purpose. But these gifts differ. The ministerial priesthood and the priesthood of the laity are two different dimensions of one sublime Saviour’s desire for us.

Thank-you for being charitable and saying "the history " and not “my history”.I believe what you say .indeed ,the little reading of some early fathers I have done is very persuasive .I was listening to catholic radio- Fr. Rick Pavlacki(?) and he said a lot of this stuff is not in the bible because the apostles were so busy establishing the basic facts ,that Jesus was the Messiah (big for the Jews) ,and the gentiles Savior also .So, no you won’t find transubstantiation, the “Immaculateness”.or Assumption, purgatory, etc. fully developed if at all in the bible .He also said some are too strict with “find it in the bible ,if not forget it” attitude.I got his point.It dawned on me a little later ,that perhaps I am strict with the bible and trying to do only what they might have done during the apostles time ,is because, those basic facts I did not have straight when I was in “religion” (in my case Catholicism,could have been any denomination).So when I was born-again,I saw the power in the simplicity of the earliest ,pure , gospel as found in the bible .It was there the largest obstacle was overcome , myself and my religious efforts or my self -righteousness (for I had stopped being religious, but I sure did try to use it ,though from my past to justify myself in that dilemma of all dilemmas-facing one’s judgement day, while still alive).So I found life in the simple basics ,and freedom.Why would I think there was anything else ? I was just like those in apostolic days ,where getting saved was THE battle,and afterwords Joy and abundant living promised , in the Holy Spirit and fellowship of the saints (brothers and sisters , in the Lord ,on my side of life). It would seem only natural to remain in the pioneer stage, and not see the necessity of the added stuff. Indeed there may even be a little mistrust of them perhaps because they may cloud the issue or that they could be wrong .Certainly you will agree, that just keeping the simple message was tough for the apostles were challenged in their own lifetime with false teachers and gospels or dogmas. So when you say these things can be found in the second century Didache or a 3rd century Father ,that is a LONG time away from my spiritual father St. Paul. Again ,many reformers who go through a “conversion” experience,after being religious ,have similar longings to remain “Pioneer”,where they found life.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi David,

Blessings to you my brother. Thanks for your post. Hey, I’m still re-discovering Catholicism and treading carefully, slowly, and dipping my toes in the water as well. I’ve only had Catholicism, Anglicanism, and more unlikely Orthodoxy on the table as possibilities. For me, apostolic succession, sacraments, the priesthood, respect for tradition, these things are paramount. I really believe Christ established a visible, organic Church. The primitive Church of the NT is in its infancy and Christ promised the Holy Spirit would reveal all truth. Over the centuries these truths were steadily revealed as heretics came along and the truth had to be crystalized. Thanks to the bishops of the One Church from Nicea to Ephesus to Chalcedon, etc. we have the truth about Christology, eschatology, soteriology, etc.

I think the Fathers and the didache are not as far removed from the first 12 apostles as you might think, brother David. Take Ignatius of Antioch. He was one of the students of St. John the Apostle, the beloved disciple of Jesus. So Ignatius learned, listened to, and was nurtured by this great apostle himself! St. Polycarp, another sublime and very holy saint, was also a disciple of St. John. So imagine these men listening to John and hearing first-hand the apostolic witness!

I think that’s a powerful reality to digest and contemplate. These men both were highly Eucharistic, believed in the Real Presence, believed in the power of bishops and succession, and were very catholic in their thinking. And they were second generation students of an apostle.

Thank-you for being charitable and saying "the history " and not “my history”.I believe what you say .indeed ,the little reading of some early fathers I have done is very persuasive .I was listening to catholic radio- Fr. Rick Pavlacki(?) and he said a lot of this stuff is not in the bible because the apostles were so busy establishing the basic facts ,that Jesus was the Messiah (big for the Jews) ,and the gentiles Savior also .So, no you won’t find transubstantiation, the “Immaculateness”.or Assumption, purgatory, etc. fully developed if at all in the bible .He also said some are too strict with “find it in the bible ,if not forget it” attitude.I got his point.It dawned on me a little later ,that perhaps I am strict with the bible and trying to do only what they might have done during the apostles time ,is because, those basic facts I did not have straight when I was in “religion” (in my case Catholicism,could have been any denomination).So when I was born-again,I saw the power in the simplicity of the earliest ,pure , gospel as found in the bible .It was there the largest obstacle was overcome , myself and my religious efforts or my self -righteousness (for I had stopped being religious, but I sure did try to use it ,though from my past to justify myself in that dilemma of all dilemmas-facing one’s judgement day, while still alive).So I found life in the simple basics ,and freedom.Why would I think there was anything else ? I was just like those in apostolic days ,where getting saved was THE battle,and afterwords Joy and abundant living promised , in the Holy Spirit and fellowship of the saints (brothers and sisters , in the Lord ,on my side of life). It would seem only natural to remain in the pioneer stage, and not see the necessity of the added stuff. Indeed there may even be a little mistrust of them perhaps because they may cloud the issue or that they could be wrong .Certainly you will agree, that just keeping the simple message was tough for the apostles were challenged in their own lifetime with false teachers and gospels or dogmas. So when you say these things can be found in the second century Didache or a 3rd century Father ,that is a LONG time away from my spiritual father St. Paul. Again ,many reformers who go through a “conversion” experience,after being religious ,have similar longings to remain “Pioneer”,where they found life.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think, David, you are overreacting to terms. Fr Mitch Pacwa is probably the person you are speaking of.

He is right, the first 100 plus years were spent in just coming out through the Holy Spirit…there were 300 years of being an underground belief, although persecutions were not happening every where and not all the time. The Church, from its beginning, was always working to be one.

These words you have drawn on that are in use up to even today came about as universal names that were accepted across cultural and language lines. There is nothing wrong with that.

Simplicity is a great virtue and something to cherish. And we have to also be careful of gaining too much intellectual knowledge that will then supercede where our authentic faith is truly at, and then we get bogged down…too much knowledge hurts faith, and I am not saying either that faith correlates with ignorance.

Anyway, keeping you in prayer…God bless!

 

[lil_flower_luv]

She’s the wisdom deity, right?

No, not “deity” at all. She brings us wisdom and help in time of need, yes.

'Cuz see, when I find myself in times of trouble, mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom. And she says, “Let it be.”

My point: Mary is not a goddess!
The OP of this post talked about their conversion being brought about because of Our Lady. I was just poking fun by commenting on what you said, which was, “Actually God is responsible. He used Mary and worked His will through her to bring you to the Church.” It just goes without saying that God worked through His Mother because she is not a god!

 

[LilyM]

She’s the wisdom deity, right?

'Cuz see, when I find myself in times of trouble, mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom. And she says, “Let it be.”

Yes, she speaks words of wisdom. So does every wise person, no? Doesn’t make them God.

And Mary DID say ‘Let it be’. As in ‘Let it be done unto me according to your word …’ How does that make her a goddess or anything other than a handmaid of God, which is exactly what she (and we) claim her to be?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Yes, she speaks words of wisdom. So does every wise person, no? Doesn’t make them God.

And Mary DID say ‘Let it be’. As in ‘Let it be done unto me according to your word …’ How does that make her a goddess or anything other than a handmaid of God, which is exactly what she (and we) claim her to be?

I made what we call a “joke.” Not a hilarious one, I admit, but a joke in spirit nonetheless.

 

[Windfish]

I don’t think of myself as having a “personal relationship” with the Blessed Virgin or Christ at all. I just have never thought that way. If someone can show me a passage in the Bible where having a “personal relationship” with them is something I am called to do, then I will change position.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

I don’t think of myself as having a “personal relationship” with the Blessed Virgin or Christ at all. I just have never thought that way. If someone can show me a passage in the Bible where having a “personal relationship” with them is something I am called to do, then I will change position.

I have called you friends, because I have told you everything I have heard from my Father. (John 15:15) - Jesus to the Apostles

Jesus demonstrates in John’s Gospel that he is our friend. It doesn’t get much more personal than that - that of being a friend to another.

And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren; for nothing will be impossible for God." Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Then the angel departed from her. During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. (Luke 1:36-44)

This passage demonstrates that Mary was told of Elizabeth’s pregnancy and made haste to be with her. That is being a good friend! Elizabeth responds with much gratitude to Mary’s friendship towards her.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I have called you friends, because I have told you everything I have heard from my Father. (John 15:15) - Jesus to the Apostles

Jesus demonstrates in John’s Gospel that he is our friend. It doesn’t get much more personal than that - that of being a friend to another.

Very good post! I just wanted to add that we as Catholics take part in receiving Jesus in His Real Presence through the holy Eucharist. That is a pretty personal relationship, as well!

 

[Reuben_J]

Very good post! I just wanted to add that we as Catholics take part in receiving Jesus in His Real Presence through the holy Eucharist. That is a pretty personal relationship, as well!

yet we are asked why we don’t choose the most excellent relationship, the most personal with Jesus.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

yet we are asked why we don’t choose the most excellent relationship, the most personal with Jesus.

So true, Reuben.

One day…one day everything will be different, God willing.