Having a personal relationship with Mary

[david_ruiz]

“Therefore it means more for Mary to have been a disciple of Christ than to have been the mother of Christ…a greater blessing to have been Christ’s disciple than to have been Christ’s mother…The Church is something better than the virgin Mary.Why ? Because Mary is part of the Church, a holy member, quite exceptional, supremely wonderful, but still a member.”…St.Augustine Sermon 72/A,7…Why was this sermon necessary ? Were people back then trying to make Mary more than she was ?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Would that be a problem? Nobody is saying she is part of the Trinity nor is she equal to them.

I’m not saying anyone did either. I’m simply saying the language used could dangerously mislead someone to think such unless it was clarified.

Are you sure of this that it cannot be applied to another human being?

I have yet to find it used as such in the New Testament.

She is Christ’s Mother! ***Christ’s ***Mother. She is worthy of all her titles. She is Queen of Heaven and Earth because of her role as the Mother of God. Why NOT Queen? I don’t follow any other kind of reasoning.
Okay, Jesus was just talking to John. So, I guess in His parables or addressing the pharisees, He was only talking to or about a handful of people. When He spoke to the woman about adultery, was He just talking to her about that grave sin? When He spoke to those who were self-righteous, could he have only meant the self-righteous at that time, or all who are self-righteous? The WORD of God was on Jesus’ lips to be given to all of us. I don’t see John 19:25-27 as the exception.

With all due respect, you are REALLY comparing apples and oranges. Not all the parables carried the same meaning, nor were always addressed to the same people (the Parable of the Prodigal Son, for example, was addressed to people who were judging converting sinners and thought themselves righteous). You admit this, but I don’t think you quite realize the implications in what you’re really arguing. You wouldn’t treat your friend’s statements that way, neither should we take our Lord’s words as such.

The fact is, Christ spoke to John to ask him to take care of His mother, and that is the only context seen in these verses. To say, “The word of God was on Jesus’ lips to be given to all of us”…well, all right, so when Christ told Peter: “Get behind me, Satan!” that means He thinks we’re all Satan and should just get behind Him? Again, you can’t treat scripture that way.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I still don’t understand what that means at all.

Oh well. I don’t think it really matters.

It’s OK. It is a relationships that grows, it can’t be forced. The rosary is a good place to start.

If you don’t have a rosary, I know where you can get one for free.

 

[Reuben_J]

I’m not saying anyone did either. I’m simply saying the language used could dangerously mislead someone to think such unless it was clarified.

Then why don’t it is clarified? We certainly do not have a problem in clarifying issue. Priestly sermon, Sunday school, Catechism, et al, should be able to do all that.In fact in Catholicism, some of these things do not need clarification - people are quite familiar with it; it is no rocket science anyway.

I have yet to find it used as such in the New Testament.

What about in the Old Testament? After all it is also part of the Bible, isn’t it?

You did not comment on me saying what’s important is that we know what we are talking about.

 

[KathleenGee]

People should know about the confraternity of the Rosary based in Portland, Oregon through Holy Rosary Dominican Church.

It is the international headquarters, if I understand that right.

I, myself, find the rosary tedious and my mind wanders when I try to meditate on the life of Christ…they have pictures on prayer cards of each mystery to help people visualize the events of Scripture.

The rosary is based on the life of Christ which began through Mary. The rosary has developed over time. Many Catholics come to slowly know Mary and her presence through the rosary.

The rosary is Mary’s beautiful chain to bind Satan…she the woman who crushes the head of Satan.

We begin with the Apostles Creed, Pater (Our Father), Ave (Hail Mary) 3 times for faith, hope and charity – in God, not Mary, and a Gloria (Glory be) giving final honor to G od.

Then there are 5 decades, one P ater, ten Ave’s with Gloria. There are 4 rosaries – the Infancia – beginning at the beginning of Christ’s conception, the Annunciation, Mary visiting Elizabeth, the Nativity, the presentation of the Lord in the Temple as an infant, and then when He was lost in the temple.

The second are the Sorrowful mysteries…Gethsemane, the scourging of Christ, His crowning of thorns, His walk and falls to Calvary, and then death on the Cross.

The Luminous mysteries are new, brought in by John Paul II. They start with Christ’s baptism at Jordan River, the first miracle at Cana, the sermon of the Mount, the transfiguration of our Lord, and then the institution of the Eucharist.

And then we have the Glorious mysteries…The resurrection, the ascension, Pentecost, and then in tribute to Mary and her fiat, we begin to end the rosary with her assumption into heaven and her coronation as queen of heaven and earth.

Catholics are not supposed to be praying the Rosary during Mass.

So from the content here, we are focusing on Christ through Mary. We Catholics should be praying the rosary every day for the intentions of the Holy Father and our priests, for the conversion of sinners and the perseverance of the just as well as our loved ones and country and peace in the world. The rosary is very powerful over the evil one.

The more people get beyond the deliberate negative image of Mary put out by anti-Catholic teachers, the more they see how Christ directed our devotion is and just how much the interior form of the Church is based on Scripture.

 

[rinnie]

Yesterday on EWTN radio there was a commentary in which the speaker talked about the value of having a personal relationship with Mary. I guess I had never considered my requests for Mary’s intercession as developing a personal relationship with her – I had always reserved that for Christ. I think the commentary was done by Cardinal Rigali. As a Mormon I didn’t even think about having a personal relationship with Jesus – that was something I wanted to develop with the Father through Jesus. Is that the same way we Catholics normally would look at our relationship with Mary?

I guess it would depend on the Catholic. I feel that I have a very close relationship with the Blessed Mother. I hope I do. When Jesus died on the Cross he said to St John behold your Mother and to her behold your son. That is where we are taught that Jesus left her here for us also and became our Mother.

To me my relationship with Mary is alot like my relationship with Jesus. I feel that with both of them in my life I am very blessed and very loved. I do not think Jesus would mind if we also loved and were close with his Mother.

He knows that there is only One God that we pray to, and worship. He knows our heart. And he also knows the love and confort that his Mother can give to us also. God gave us her for a reason.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

With all due respect, you are REALLY comparing apples and oranges. Not all the parables carried the same meaning, nor were always addressed to the same people (the Parable of the Prodigal Son, for example, was addressed to people who were judging converting sinners and thought themselves righteous). You admit this, but I don’t think you quite realize the implications in what you’re really arguing. You wouldn’t treat your friend’s statements that way, neither should we take our Lord’s words as such.

Well then, it’s a very good thing I’m in Communion with the Church. You and I know that Mary IS Mother-- stated in Catholic Dogma. I only wanted to make it easier for you and all others who deny this to understand the “why” through the scripture references and the words of Christ. Our conversation here can only go knee deep if we compare scripture with scripture. Catholic Teaching goes beyond that, as I’m sure you know.

The fact is, Christ spoke to John to ask him to take care of His mother, and that is the only context seen in these verses. To say, “The word of God was on Jesus’ lips to be given to all of us”…well, all right, so when Christ told Peter: “Get behind me, Satan!” that means He thinks we’re all Satan and should just get behind Him? Again, you can’t treat scripture that way.

Does Christ think we’re all Satan? I don’t think He would have much of a reason to come here, in that case.

In all seriousness, what I meant by those words was to be taken the way the Gospel is supposed to be taken, as the Good News. Yes, Jesus speaks to every heart in a different way, but He had a mission on earth, not only to die and bring us new life, but to speak the* words* of Life. Why did He entrust Mary to John on the cross when He could have done it before? When He knew He would suffer for us, why entrust His Mother to His beloved disciple right there and then, dying? Just wondering how you’ll approach that.

Can you honestly sit down–with all you know as an intelligent individual and believer–and deny Mary as the Mother of all? Why can it not make sense to you?

God Bless!

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Then when Jesus promised us the Holy Spirit,that he would guide us ,bring things to remembrance , give us power , making us priests -that was for everybody, right? When he said preach the gospel to all, forgiving ,binding that was for all of us to do .right ? Whenever we break bread , we can all do it in remebrance of Him, right? When he said confess your faults ,one to another , that could be between any two people ,right?

Hey, there are going to be as many translations of the Bible as there are people on this planet. That is where the Magisterium or Teaching Authority of the Church comes in. God Bless you.

 

[JustaServant]

Yesterday on EWTN radio there was a commentary in which the speaker talked about the value of having a personal relationship with Mary. I guess I had never considered my requests for Mary’s intercession as developing a personal relationship with her – I had always reserved that for Christ. I think the commentary was done by Cardinal Rigali. As a Mormon I didn’t even think about having a personal relationship with Jesus – that was something I wanted to develop with the Father through Jesus. Is that the same way we Catholics normally would look at our relationship with Mary?

I think it better for Catholics not to adopt evangelical phrases. Even as an evangelical I believed the phrase "personal relationship’ to be insufficient in describing our faith. It’s like someone asking if I have a personal relationship with my wife…
I beleive a better word is devotion. It speaks to a much deeper relation. I would think even devout Protestants would see that as a better phrase.

 

[david_ruiz]

Well then, it’s a very good thing I’m in Communion with the Church. You and I know that Mary IS Mother-- stated in Catholic Dogma. I only wanted to make it easier for you and all others who deny this to understand the “why” through the scripture references and the words of Christ. Our conversation here can only go knee deep if we compare scripture with scripture. Catholic Teaching goes beyond that, as I’m sure you know.
Does Christ think we’re all Satan? I don’t think He would have much of a reason to come here, in that case.

In all seriousness, what I meant by those words was to be taken the way the Gospel is supposed to be taken, as the Good News. Yes, Jesus speaks to every heart in a different way, but He had a mission on earth, not only to die and bring us new life, but to speak the* words* of Life. Why did He entrust Mary to John on the cross when He could have done it before? When He knew He would suffer for us, why entrust His Mother to His beloved disciple right there and then, dying? Just wondering how you’ll approach that.

Can you honestly sit down–with all you know as an intelligent individual and believer–and deny Mary as the Mother of all? Why can it not make sense to you?

God Bless!

because i am afraid ,afraid to be wrong .I see all the stuff that goes on with Mary,and same was done with female figures in cults and past religions.I know that proves nothing ,but ,it also seems so “unjewish”.The old testament seems so paternalistic(men of faith) ,though there are great women of faith also…I do not trust tradition either .It seems that those who spilt their blood to follow jesus did not have time for this topic(first 2 ceturies).It seems that after the blodletting this became a popular topic.Plus to many peoples came into the faith from different religions and cultures at that time (3-4th cent.) ,and i can not be sure it influenced the church on this side topic.Further ,as you state ,the bible could have been clearer ,but was not ,and hence the reliance on tradtion. .So ,I am afraid ,to venture too far from "KNOWN’ truth’s in the bible.But do not feel too bad for me ,I have plenty on my spiritual plate just with the “GROOM”

 

[KathleenGee]

David, you are right to be afraid because there are false Mary’s…in the church…I am afraid of them, too, and stay away from any new things…False apparitions of Mary appeared with the authentic at Lourdes.

But you have to also understand the great discernment given the church through the bishops to determine whether or not something is true or false. Most are false…same with false prophets of Old Testament.

God has given us Mary in these times when man is capable of totally annihilating himself and the earth through the power of evil.

The Catholics have been very correct in their relaying of our devotion and relationship we know Mary has with the Church. We are not saints but we are in communion with them who have earned the prize of eternal life with Christ The True Mother of Christ would never lead you away from Him but only closer to the Lord and the sanctified life.

Mary is our source of hope and consolation and strength that what we are witnessing today will eventually overcome by good and a new springtime of Christianity. When we pray with Mary, she magnifies the grace with her prayer combined with ours, making our prayers very strong in defeating evil and accomplishing good.

 

[david_ruiz]

Hey, there are going to be as many translations of the Bible as there are people on this planet. That is where the Magisterium or Teaching Authority of the Church comes in. God Bless you.

I agree .But not to worry ,most newer ones are very liberal ,and more in line with Catholic teaching .I’ll stick to my King James .It served saints for hundreds of years .At least the bible is in a lot of languages-it was a big deal to get the bible in the vernacular ,in church history.(That church, with her magisterium ,burned a few people who tried to put forth a decent translation). At any rate we were commenting on your statement that Jesus Gave us all Mary to take care of. I am merely using your method of interpretation to other scriptures, which I take you did not like.You like separation of "powers " so to speak-like the priest up there(altar) or in there(confessional) with something between us,a bit like the old testament ,where only the priest can go into the holy of holies. Priest is used a thousand times in the O.T. yet only a handful in the new ,and to say we are all priests. Just because it has been abused( a thousand translations) does not mean it is not true. A magisterium may fix that but create other problems if it ask you to abdicate your priesthood ,your first-class priesthood that the bible says you can have , if you so desire His fullness. Again ,your little jab is well taken , you are off the hook of responsibility to any truth I was trying to allude to.

 

[Vixit]

I think it better for Catholics not to adopt evangelical phrases. Even as an evangelical I believed the phrase "personal relationship’ to be insufficient in describing our faith. It’s like someone asking if I have a personal relationship with my wife…
I beleive a better word is devotion. It speaks to a much deeper relation. I would think even devout Protestants would see that as a better phrase.

I agree. I especially hate to see the whole ‘Charismatic catholic’ thing.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I always hear in Catholic circles people angry at the Protestant desire to have a “personal relationship with Jesus” but why is it ok to have a “personal relationship with Mary?”

 

[david_ruiz]

QUOTE=KathleenGee;7085851]David, you are right to be afraid because there are false Mary’s…in the church…I am afraid of them, too, and stay away from any new things…False apparitions of Mary appeared with the authentic at Lourdes.

But you have to also understand the great discernment given the church through the bishops to determine whether or not something is true or false. Most are false…same with false prophets of Old Testament.

Thank-you ,but I still would be hesistant ,because thru the ages ,those bishops have had different views on the things of Mary.It even took them 1900 years just to determine that she was “Immaculate”.

God has given us Mary in these times when man is capable of totally annihilating himself and the earth through the power of evil.

.I am not sure I have this right ,but was not the theme of Lourdes , to pray for peace in the late 1800’s ? So people started praying the rosary like crazy and what happened ? Maybe we did not pray enough , or it would have been worse if we had not or…but the twentieth century was one of the worst ever as far as world peace. Indeed ,as you say we developed the means to annihilating ourselves (atom bomb),but maybe we should try praying to someone else .

The Catholics have been very correct in their relaying of our devotion and relationship we know Mary has with the Church. We are not saints but we are in communion with them who have earned the prize of eternal life with Christ The True Mother of Christ would never lead you away from Him but only closer to the Lord and the sanctified life.

I am sorry ,but I wonder why you have to say that ,that Mary would not lead me away from Him. It reminds me of the man saying ,get in my car ,I won’t hurt you.But you are right,that is my fear.

Mary is our source of hope and consolation and strength that what we are witnessing today will eventually overcome by good and a new springtime of Christianity. When we pray with Mary, she magnifies the grace with her prayer combined with ours, making our prayers very strong in defeating evil and accomplishing good.

This may seem goofy ,but when an FBI agent is put on the counterfeit money detail ,I have been told they study and look at thousands and thousands of real bills .Then and only then ,the teacher sticks in a phony bill ,and it sticks out like a sore thumb , even though they never saw it or studied the counterfeit bill before.See, they are so full of the real thing ,the not so real sticks out … In my Christian walk , I am around people (saints) who talk of Jesus ,or the Holy Spirit . It is always “the Lord” this or the “Father” that, or the Spirit this,and the Bible that. That is all I have heard for years and years. So what you say say seems beautiful but very strange ,strange
to my experience.Yet I feel bad because you seem nice but we can not connect,and bad because it seems wrong to me. Bad because you seem to have your needs met .and won’t ever desire just what I have experienced.This is very serious.Lord help us all.

 

[david_ruiz]

I think it better for Catholics not to adopt evangelical phrases. Even as an evangelical I believed the phrase "personal relationship’ to be insufficient in describing our faith. It’s like someone asking if I have a personal relationship with my wife…
I beleive a better word is devotion. It speaks to a much deeper relation. I would think even devout Protestants would see that as a better phrase.

True .You do not hear that much anymore - devout-devoted .However,evangelicalism is correct to keep first things first .First you must be born again ,that is have a personal ,saving experience with the Savior, where you are a new creature .Now it is this new creature that must decide how devoted they will be to His calling .We must be careful NOT to ask or encourage one to be devoted ,when they have NOT been born again .That is burdensome religion…I would not ask if you have a personal relationship with your wife, but I would ask if you are married,and if you say yes , then I can encourage and admonish your devotion to your spouse.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Then why don’t it is clarified? We certainly do not have a problem in clarifying issue. Priestly sermon, Sunday school, Catechism, et al, should be able to do all that.In fact in Catholicism, some of these things do not need clarification - people are quite familiar with it; it is no rocket science anyway.

I know. The problem is often here on CAF, it isn’t, and requests to clarify it are often met with hostility.

What about in the Old Testament? After all it is also part of the Bible, isn’t it?

You did not comment on me saying what’s important is that we know what we are talking about.

I don’t understand that last part, but regarding the Old Testament, I’m not aware of any form of worship or worship-like activity given to people by people of God. Abraham bowed to other men out of respect, but he prayed only to God. As for the New Testament, everyone who prostrates to mortal men and commits prayer towards a person (the Greeks to Paul and Barnabas, Cornelius to Peter, the apostle John to an angel twice) are reprimanded. The role in the New Testament of intercessor and veneration is likewise changed because we no longer have prophets but the Son of God to intercede for us before the Father (Heb 1:1-2).

Our conversation here can only go knee deep if we compare scripture with scripture. Catholic Teaching goes beyond that, as I’m sure you know.

I know. That’s why I’m not a Roman Catholic.

Why did He entrust Mary to John on the cross when He could have done it before? When He knew He would suffer for us, why entrust His Mother to His beloved disciple right there and then, dying? Just wondering how you’ll approach that.

The apostle John was the only apostle who stood there by the foot of the cross, and who would have been able to taken care of the Virgin Mary. For his faith, John was given the trust to take care of the Virgin Mary as his own mother. I recognize that in the Roman Catholic Church it is believed she remained a virgin - then she would not have had any direct children of her own to take care of her after Christ passed away (and later ascended to heaven). Using this standard, John was chosen to take care of her as an adopted mother.

However, the placing of the statement is nonsensical, in my honest opinion. I have a feeling we would be having this conversation even if Christ gave the Virgin Mary to the apostle in John 1:1.

Can you honestly sit down–with all you know as an intelligent individual and believer–and deny Mary as the Mother of all? Why can it not make sense to you?

Because nowhere in scripture is that title ever given to her, nor does any New Testament writer ever speak to her of such a way. Likewise, in the context of which we are speaking, that one passage in John does not confirm it, neither in plain language or context.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I always hear in Catholic circles people angry at the Protestant desire to have a “personal relationship with Jesus” but why is it ok to have a “personal relationship with Mary?”

I’ve noticed some (though not all) people on CAF get more irate if you question a relationship with Mary more than if you question a relationship with Christ. :hypno:

 

[KathleenGee]

I would not have a personal relationship with Mary without one based on Christ.

I have been reflecting on Mary alot these past months, perhaps why I have been active on this topic.

I think people again are fearful because they are not wanting to depend on men…but we are Catholic because of the Holy Spirit working through those called to be Christ’s ministers…consecrated in truth and Spirit.

The sheep know their Shepherd and He knows them…and we have this experience among us acknowledging the Lord working through the Church faithful to Him.

Only you through praying to the Lord can lead you into deeper understanding…

I experience Christ when people speak of Him…I am the same in faith…but with Church and sacraments…

I can accept your faith in Christ, acknowledge many of the same fruits, but you cannot recognize mine.

My son attended a ‘liberal’ Catholic school…when the Church was working to correct errors…and he said their idea of being a Christian was just being nice.

Christ gives me strength to relate to all kinds of people, including atheists…

 

[Reuben_J]

I’ve noticed some (though not all) people on CAF get more irate if you question a relationship with Mary more than if you question a relationship with Christ. :hypno:

If you notice they become irritated maybe it is because the question may be laced with the insinuation that one should not be praying to Mary.

I can’t say I have a personal relationship with her but I don’t see anything wrong with it having understood the role of Mary in the Church. My spirituality is Charismatic but like all Catholics, I also love Mary and she is a major intercessor in my prayer life. I do not go into Marian devotion but that’s not saying I don’t believe in it.

Even your statement infers that Catholic put more importance to Mary than Jesus. This accusation may upset Catholics because it is not true. But more so, the issue does not arise; it’s two different things. As you may understand we don’t compartmentalize our belief and do not make an issue of what essential or not. Faith is a package not pick and choose.