Having a problem believing in Hell

[alongexpected]

Hello,

As the title states, I’m having a huge problem believing that there is a Hell, or at least that certain things the Church considers mortal sins would land you there. The specific “sins” have all been said before; masturbation, apostasy, birth control, missing one Mass. I started to look around at my family and friends. My older brothers and their wives, who have used birth control for years. My atheistic neighbor who is a wonderful family man and helps out around the block whenever he’s asked. My formerly-Catholic-who-turned-evangelical-aunt who is probably the warmest and kindest person I’ve ever known. Catholic doctrine demands that I believe that all these people would go to Hell if they died suddenly right now.

I used to think that Hell was just for murderers and such. Then I got older and learned all the Catholic prohibitions. Really turned me off. How in God’s name can you equate rape or murder with masturbation?

I’ve heard the counter to this; that it’s all God’s law, which has been clearly handed down and taught through the ages and we’re given the choice and all that. But, sorry, I just can’t see it. I can’t see my brother sent to Hell for birth control usage while Pol-Pot (let’s say he made a deathbed repentance/conversion) will eventually make it to Heaven. That makes zero sense.

 

[paduard]

Hello,

As the title states, I’m having a huge problem believing that there is a Hell, or at least that certain things the Church considers mortal sins would land you there. The specific “sins” have all been said before; masturbation, apostasy, birth control, missing one Mass. I started to look around at my family and friends. My older brothers and their wives, who have used birth control for years. My atheistic neighbor who is a wonderful family man and helps out around the block whenever he’s asked. My formerly-Catholic-who-turned-evangelical-aunt who is probably the warmest and kindest person I’ve ever known. Catholic doctrine demands that I believe that all these people would go to Hell if they died suddenly right now.

I used to think that Hell was just for murderers and such. Then I got older and learned all the Catholic prohibitions. Really turned me off. How in God’s name can you equate rape or murder with masturbation?

I’ve heard the counter to this; that it’s all God’s law, which has been clearly handed down and taught through the ages and we’re given the choice and all that. But, sorry, I just can’t see it. I can’t see my brother sent to Hell for birth control usage while Pol-Pot (let’s say he made a deathbed repentance/conversion) will eventually make it to Heaven. That makes zero sense.

I suggest that if, as the topic title sugests, you have a problem believing in hell, then you must surely will have a problem in believing in heaven.

I guess what you may really mean is that you have a problem regarding who or who may not go to hell.

 

[puzzleannie]

Hello,

AsCatholic doctrine demands that I believe that all these people would go to Hell if they died suddenly right now.

I .

no Catholic doctrine does not demand you believe this. Since you misunderstand (whether from ignorance, poor teaching, or deliberately) the teaching, why not first ask for the actual teaching, and discuss that.

 

[kildare]

For a while it was a real stumbling block for me too, but then I figured or learned about God’s Perfect Justice and Infinite Love.
You see what happens is, I think , is that when teh people sin like that, they go a bit farther away from God and from Love.
But no man alive can say even that anyone is in Hell. that is completley up to the Divine judge! Hell is separation from God and Love

 

[tonyrey]

Hello,
As the title states, I’m having a huge problem believing that there is a Hell, or at least that certain things the Church considers mortal sins would land you there.
The specific “sins” have all been said before; masturbation, apostasy, birth control, missing one Mass.

Can you provide evidence for your statements?

I started to look around at my family and friends. My older brothers and their wives, who have used birth control for years. My atheistic neighbor who is a wonderful family man and helps out around the block whenever he’s asked. My formerly-Catholic-who-turned-evangelical-aunt who is probably the warmest and kindest person I’ve ever known. Catholic doctrine demands that I believe that all these people would go to Hell if they died suddenly right now.

Can you provide evidence for your last statement?

I used to think that Hell was just for murderers and such. Then I got older and learned all the Catholic prohibitions. Really turned me off. How in God’s name can you equate rape or murder with masturbation?
I’ve heard the counter to this; that it’s all God’s law, which has been clearly handed down and taught through the ages and we’re given the choice and all that. But, sorry, I just can’t see it. I can’t see my brother sent to Hell for birth control usage while Pol-Pot (let’s say he made a deathbed repentance/conversion) will eventually make it to Heaven. That makes zero sense.

What you stating is false!

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hello,

As the title states, I’m having a huge problem believing that there is a Hell, or at least that certain things the Church considers mortal sins would land you there. The specific “sins” have all been said before; masturbation, apostasy, birth control, missing one Mass. I started to look around at my family and friends. My older brothers and their wives, who have used birth control for years. My atheistic neighbor who is a wonderful family man and helps out around the block whenever he’s asked. My formerly-Catholic-who-turned-evangelical-aunt who is probably the warmest and kindest person I’ve ever known. Catholic doctrine demands that I believe that all these people would go to Hell if they died suddenly right now.

I used to think that Hell was just for murderers and such. Then I got older and learned all the Catholic prohibitions. Really turned me off. How in God’s name can you equate rape or murder with masturbation?

I’ve heard the counter to this; that it’s all God’s law, which has been clearly handed down and taught through the ages and we’re given the choice and all that. But, sorry, I just can’t see it. I can’t see my brother sent to Hell for birth control usage while Pol-Pot (let’s say he made a deathbed repentance/conversion) will eventually make it to Heaven. That makes zero sense.

Friend, the best way to understand this is to think of heaven and hell as they are. They are not a physical place that one enters as a reward or punishment for obeying rules and laws. Rather they are states of our soul. Being in heaven means your soul is in full union with God and is in eternal bliss from God’s love. Being in hell is the opposite, we are separated from God and thus like fire our soul is tortured and burned because we cannot accept God’s love.

One of the Church Fathers wrote, and sorry I forgot the name right now, that he believes that when we die we are all subject to the same mystical fire which is God’s love. To those who are in Communion with God this fire brings bliss, eternal happiness. To those who are defiled, this fire brings purification. To those who reject God, this fire brings pain and suffering. My explanation for this is like an unwanted lover. A man courts a woman but the woman doesn’t want the man. No matter how the man showers the woman with love, with signs of affection and showers of gifts, the woman still rejects the man. It comes to a point that the woman reviles the man for being persistent with his love, even though the man is pure in intention and trully loves the woman. Such is God’s love to those who reject it. Because they wish to be with someone else other than God, God’s love then gives them pain.

And this is why even sins that may seem trivial to us would lead us to hell. Because we desire something that is not of God, then we cannot be with God.

 

[alongexpected]

Can you provide evidence for your statements?

Can you provide evidence for your last statement?
What you stating is false!

I don’t understand…one unconfessed mortal sin is a Hell-sentence. Is that not Catholic doctrine?

 

[Spock]

I don’t understand…one unconfessed mortal sin is a Hell-sentence. Is that not Catholic doctrine?

It sure is, but it is “impolite” to bring it up. Nowadays it is politically (or theologically) correct to say: “we cannot make a judgment who is hell-bound”. This was not always the case, but recently the rhetoric is tuned down somewhat. Read more about it here: godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/PopeCalls.htm … in a tongue-in-cheek “news” article.

 

[fide]

Hello,

As the title states, I’m having a huge problem believing that there is a Hell, or at least that certain things the Church considers mortal sins would land you there. The specific “sins” have all been said before; masturbation, apostasy, birth control, missing one Mass. I started to look around at my family and friends. My older brothers and their wives, who have used birth control for years. My atheistic neighbor who is a wonderful family man and helps out around the block whenever he’s asked. My formerly-Catholic-who-turned-evangelical-aunt who is probably the warmest and kindest person I’ve ever known. Catholic doctrine demands that I believe that all these people would go to Hell if they died suddenly right now.

I used to think that Hell was just for murderers and such. Then I got older and learned all the Catholic prohibitions. Really turned me off. How in God’s name can you equate rape or murder with masturbation?

I’ve heard the counter to this; that it’s all God’s law, which has been clearly handed down and taught through the ages and we’re given the choice and all that. But, sorry, I just can’t see it. I can’t see my brother sent to Hell for birth control usage while Pol-Pot (let’s say he made a deathbed repentance/conversion) will eventually make it to Heaven. That makes zero sense.

Maybe this from the Catechism can help you understand what the Church teaches:

CCC 1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”<1 Jn 3:14-15> Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.<Cf. Mt 25:31-46> To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

…

CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.”<Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG # 12> The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

CCC 1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”<Mt 7:13-14>

…

CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;<Cf. Council of Orange II (529): DS 397; Council of Trent (1547):1567> for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:<2 Pet 3:9>​

 

[Pieman333272]

I don’t understand…one unconfessed mortal sin is a Hell-sentence. Is that not Catholic doctrine?

Not quite, friend.

First of all, you have to know it’s a mortal sin - so a liberal who never read up on Catholic moral theology who masturbates wouldn’t **probably **go to hell for that - perhaps something else, but not that.

Also, it doesn’t have to be confessed. It **should **be confessed, but in issues where that isn’t possible, true repentance would also work. Also, it’s not like you never have the chance to confess- you can walk in any Saturday, or sometimes even more commonly, once you’re in the Church, and oftentimes priests come to hospitals to give confessions to the sick.

Now, here’s the bulk of the issue - hell is merely a state of eternal separation from God - not a place of suffering but a place of shame and indifference. However, one does “reap what you sow” in hell, and I believe, as do others, that hell has different “levels” of suffering.

 

[vz71]

I don’t understand…one unconfessed mortal sin is a Hell-sentence. Is that not Catholic doctrine?

It is, but you are merely human.
You are not qualified to judge another’s sin.

Mortal sin requires a few conditions in order to actually be mortal.
You have to have full knowledge of the grave nature of the sin.
You have to have perfect freedom to perform this sin or not.
And you must commit the act.

You may be able to see first hand that a sin is committed, but there is no way you can know the other conditions.
That is up to God.

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t understand…one unconfessed mortal sin is a Hell-sentence. Is that not Catholic doctrine?

Not when it is interpreted to mean you can be damned as the result of misfortune, ignorance, weakness, foolishness or carelessness.

“God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.” CCC 1037

Many sins regarded as mortal are not a deliberate premeditated rejection of God. You have to be fully aware of what your action entails, fully unrepentant and fully aware of the consequences. It is absurd to think your eternal destiny depends on a momentary decision.

 

[Spock]

First of all, you have to know it’s a mortal sin - so a liberal who never read up on Catholic moral theology who masturbates wouldn’t **probably **go to hell for that - perhaps something else, but not that.

What about those who are aware of this teaching, but reject it as nonsensical and unfounded?

Also, it doesn’t have to be confessed. It **should **be confessed, but in issues where that isn’t possible, true repentance would also work.

Which would put the catholic church right out of business. If the church and the clergy and the confession and the asbolution are not necessary for repentenace, then why worry about it?

But, what you say is at odds with the dogma. theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm VI/20. Membership of the Catholic Church is necessary for all men for salvation.

This does declare that every member of all the other religions, along with all the atheists are condemned to go to hell. A “conversion by redefinition” does not work.

Now, here’s the bulk of the issue - hell is merely a state of eternal separation from God - not a place of suffering but a place of shame and indifference. However, one does “reap what you sow” in hell, and I believe, as do others, that hell has different “levels” of suffering.

You are toning down hell here. Not that anyone can speak about it as a first hand experience.

Dogma says: theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm
XVI/6: The souls of those who die in the condition of personal grievous sin enter Hell.
XVI/7: The punishment of Hell lasts for all eternity.

 

[Pieman333272]

What about those who are aware of this teaching, but reject it as nonsensical and unfounded?

Presumably they would go to hell, yes, but again it would depend on the severity of the sin.

Which would put the catholic church right out of business. If the church and the clergy and the confession and the asbolution are not necessary for repentenace, then why worry about it?

But, what you say is at odds with the dogma. theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm VI/20. Membership of the Catholic Church is necessary for all men for salvation.

You’re right. I meant true repentance in a time where you could not be reconciled (i.e. being trapped in a cave).

This does declare that every member of all the other religions, along with all the atheists are condemned to go to hell. A “conversion by redefinition” does not work.

Only if they freely deny, with full knowledge, the Church, would they go to hell. If they didn’t have full knowledge (not like reading the every dogma, but acknowledgment of its basic beliefs and promises and punishments for rejection) would they go to hell. Even then, there’s potentiality for them to be saved via purgatory.

You are toning down hell here. Not that anyone can speak about it as a first hand experience.

Dogma says: theworkofgod.org/dogmas.htm
XVI/6: The souls of those who die in the condition of personal grievous sin enter Hell.
XVI/7: The punishment of Hell lasts for all eternity.

Yes, the punishment is (the feeling of) eternal separation from God and shame. They can have worse, of course.

 

[vz71]

A “conversion by redefinition” does not work.

Nor would a condemnation by redefinition.

I have posted the requirements for a mortal sin.
Given the requirements, it is simply not possible for a man to judge another a mortal sin.

That is rightfully left in God’s hands.

Hell is a state of eternal rejection of God.
When it comes to final judgement, we choose God or ourselves.
The choice we make is determined by the choices we make in this life.

Would you have God force himself upon someone that clearly does not want anything to do with him? God allows us the freedom to turn away from him.
Of course, the consequences of this are unspeakable, but it is our choice to make.

 

[Spock]

Presumably they would go to hell, yes, but again it would depend on the severity of the sin.

I was talking about the specific example of masturbation. People are aware that the church teaches that it is a grave sin, but honestly disagree with it. Is that a “get-out-of-jail” card?

You’re right. I meant true repentance in a time where you could not be reconciled (i.e. being trapped in a cave).

That is not what I meant. People who can go to a confessional, and yet they do not choose to do that, rather they repent “silently”. What about their “fate”?

Only if they freely deny, with full knowledge, the Church, would they go to hell.

What is full knowledge here? I am very much aware of “many” things that the Church “claims”, and I agree with a few of them, but reject the rest. I am not a Catholic in any sense of the word. The dogma simply says that being a “member of the church” is necessary in order to be saved. It does not speak of “denial”.

Yes, the punishment is (the feeling of) eternal separation from God and shame. They can have worse, of course.

We are in separation from God here, and it is not too bad. Is this “hell”? You know that the description of hell changed a lot. It used to be all “brimstone and fire and gnashing of teeth”. This description is out of “fashion” nowadays.

 

[Spock]

God allows us the freedom to turn away from him.

Is the lack of belief in God the same as “turning away from him”?

 

[Pieman333272]

I was talking about the specific example of masturbation. People are aware that the church teaches that it is a grave sin, but honestly disagree with it. Is that a “get-out-of-jail” card?

Nope, unless the Church changed positions on the issue - but then we’d have bigger issues to worry about!

That is not what I meant. People who can go to a confessional, and yet they do not choose to do that, rather they repent “silently”. What about their “fate”?

Their sins would not be forgiven so long as they are not dying and are able to go to confession. HOWEVER, if one came to truly accept Jesus and the Church and be truly sorry for their sins, they would probably get around to going to confession prior to death.

What is full knowledge here? I am very much aware of “many” things that the Church “claims”, and I agree with a few of them, but reject the rest. I am not a Catholic in any sense of the word. The dogma simply says that being a “member of the church” is necessary in order to be saved. It does not speak of “denial”.

We are in separation from God here, and it is not too bad. Is this “hell”? You know that the description of hell changed a lot. It used to be all “brimstone and fire and gnashing of teeth”. This description is out of “fashion” nowadays.

We aren’t in separation from God - see Eucharist, Mystics, Spirituality, Prayer. Not saying they work, but they are all evidence we are with God in this life. We merely haven’t seen the Beatific Vision or entered heaven. Also, God is love, joy, and basically all other positive emotions and actions and natures - those wouldn’t be in hell.

And the description of hell never changed, the interpretation of the description changed.

 

[Spock]

Nope, unless the Church changed positions on the issue - but then we’d have bigger issues to worry about!

So, even if someone honestly believes that the teaching is wrong, it is still binding?

Their sins would not be forgiven so long as they are not dying and are able to go to confession.

Ugh, so you can speak for God in this case?

HOWEVER, if one came to truly accept Jesus and the Church and be truly sorry for their sins, they would probably get around to going to confession prior to death.

But they do not accept the church. This is the whole point here. The dogma says that only members of the catholic church can be saved. The majority of people are not members of the catholic church. So the dogma says that all those people will go to hell. Is the dogma subject to interpretation?

 

[The_Exodus]

So, even if someone honestly believes that the teaching is wrong, it is still binding?

A person’s conscience is what is above all binding, even if that conscience opposes certain teachings of the Church.

But, each person is responsible for searching diligently after truth. It may very well be the case that one’s conscience is malformed, and this due to moral negligence.

Obviously, only God can know who errs ignorantly, and who errs with blame.

spock:

But they do not accept the church. This is the whole point here. The dogma says that only members of the catholic church can be saved. The majority of people are not members of the catholic church. So the dogma says that all those people will go to hell. Is the dogma subject to interpretation?

The Church is a visible body, but it is also invisible. No person can be deserving of eternal life without God’s grace, and God’s grace may work on people outside the Church in unseen ways. Further, simply being a member of the Church, if that means “entering its doors on Sunday” is not a guarantor of salvation.