Having Abortion Legal

[unstoppable_II]

I think most of us understand your position, there might be a couple who don’t.

Well…no, not really. Nobody has any right to kill another human, it’s right there in the 5th commandment. I mean, that’s why murder is illegal after all. The right to life is the most basic, fundamental right there is, since it’s the right from which all other rights stem. Some rights are more important than others and take precedence, for instance you might take away a murderer’s right to freedom (ie. put them in jail) to protect everyone else’s right to life, because that’s the more important right. So here, the mother’s right to ‘bodily autonomy’ doesn’t supersede the child’s right to life.

On the one hand, this is true. Yes, there will still be people who try to abort in private, just like people still steal. But, that doesn’t mean we should decriminalize theft, because by making it illegal you deter most people from stealing, and don’t give the impression that you, as a state/nation believe it’s alright. I guarantee you that there will be people who will only have an abortion if it’s legal, and every life we can save is a life worth fighting for.

 

[Ilovejesus1234]

This is known as a false choice. There are more than two choices. For one:

Vote against abortion and reject the action.

That is your opinion but try looking at it through my perspective…Don’t be rude.

 

[pensmama87]

I agree we shouldn’t let abortion be a thing we just pass under our noses but we should try to convince them not to do it but if they want to do it and no matter how much we tell them not to, let them do it. It is their right as a human being to choose something that is sinful.

God allows all of us to have free will, and some people abuse it while others are more prudent with it. In this case abortion is an abuse of their own free will. We should try to convince them not to do it, but still make it their own free choice to do it.

What you are saying would also suggest that you believe murder of born people should be allowed. Is that also your position?

If not, why?

 

[Ilovejesus1234]

What you are saying would also suggest that you believe murder of born people should be allowed. Is that also your position?

If not, why?

No i personally believe it shouldn’t be allowed but I believe people have their own free choice.

 

[Ilovejesus1234]

Would you personally allow to homosexuals to get married? If not why?

 

[pensmama87]

No i personally believe it shouldn’t be allowed but I believe people have their own free choice.

So do you advocate eliminating all laws? Because people have free will, we should not have legal barriers that try to prevent them from doing wrong?

I am trying to understand your position, and while I think it’s gravely in error if you were an anarchist it would at least make you consistent.

If abortion is to be treated differently under the law than the deliberate killing of born people (as it is in many places), then you need to justify that in some way besides “people will do it.”

 

[unstoppable_II]

No i personally believe it shouldn’t be allowed but I believe people have their own free choice.

Take all your arguments and replace “abortion” with “slavery” and you will have the answer you are looking for. Why? Because all your arguments were used to justify slavery as well.

 

[pensmama87]

Would you personally allow to homosexuals to get married? If not why?

Same-sex “marriage” is a bit of a different conundrum and should be the subject of a different thread. I would not advocate that we reintroduce laws about what people choose to do in the privacy of their own homes - but this is separate from an issue like abortion, where a person is deliberately killed.

I do not believe all sins should be made illegal - what a horror to legislate - but there is an enormous difference between sins that are private and those that harm others.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH View Post
Yes you can - but I think that to hold such a view shows a malformed conscience on the matter.
I do not mean the above to be an attack or slander but let’s consider the reasons you have stated.

Why do you think it is wrong and horrible?
The answer to this question is very important to answering whether this is a “personal choice” that should be legal.
After all there are many things that we could classify as “personal choice” but are illegal.

I think it is wrong because you are sucking out and killing an innocent, yet to be born child, it is very selfish of the mother to do so, but, she has free still and I can’t stop that.

You also can’t stop people from driving drunk, committing robbery, murder, rape or other crimes, yet I am sure that you would not advocate allowing such actions simply because you cannot stop it.

A fair point - but - what about the injury to the Child. You do believe that the unborn fetus is a child - correct?

Yes I believe it is living and a soul.

If you believe this then how can you believe it acceptable for it to be legal to kill the innocent unborn?
If you truly believe that the child is a living soul then you must oppose it’s killing just as you would oppose the murder of any other innocent person.

Do you feel this way about ALL matters? That they (and we) should have the freedom to do anything they (we) want?
We have to remember that ALL law - ALL restriction impinges on someone’s right to “do anything they want”. So this alone really isn’t a valid notion upon which to base one’s position.
One must ask WHY should people be permitted or restricted in a given thing.

No I believe some rights should be limited such as weed legalization or drugs. Seeing as how we don’t want to be a nation that is a chicken with its head cut off and high pretty much all the time.

Correct. There are some rights that must be limited for the good of society - in particular the good of the innocent and defenseless in society. Thus abortion, the taking of an innocent and defenseless life, should be illegal.

Even when, by so doing, you are adding legitimacy to the killing of the innocent?

Yes they are innocent, but it is the their right.

So you are willing to deny the right to life for one in order to give the right of convenience to another. Seems an odd conclusion.

Closing comments, I believe it is a very sad thing to happen and the killing of the fetus, as much as I am against it, I have to allow their right to do what they want, if not they might do it at home and hurt themselves. If they are going to do it, they should do it with safety and later repent for it.

I will grant that it is a horrible thought that women (and babies) would die in “back street” abortions.
But I wonder - How many women would choose to carry to term rather than risk “hurting themselves at home” and then give the baby up for adoption. How many innocent souls would be saved. How many would not need to repent for it because they never did it?

But for me I don’t think it is something I would ever forget. This is my own opinion, I believe it would be wrong to allow this matter to be legal AND agree with the act of killing that innocent baby.

I have to say though, that I agree the law should be legal but I am strongly against the killing of the fetus that is defenseless. I should probably ask a priest about this matter I am sorta afraid I might be yelled at on the forums…

We are not yelling at you…but we are trying to counsel you. Talking to a priest might be a good idea.

Peace
James

 

[unstoppable_II]

…there is an enormous difference between sins that are private and those that harm others.

Catholic teaching is that all sins hurt the community.

 

[unstoppable_II]

…
So you are willing to deny the right to life for one in order to give the right of convenience to another. Seems an odd conclusion.
…

It is an odd conclusion. Even the Declaration lists the basic rights in order.

 

[pensmama87]

Catholic teaching is that all sins hurt the community.

I understand this.

So do we criminalize overeating? Can we legally define it? What about lying? Punishment varies on severity? Missing Mass?

Catholics have the sacrament of confession so that God might heal us and the community. It is not necessary for the government to be involved in these matters. Government, however, is well within its rights to prevent citizens from harming each other directly.

 

[unstoppable_II]

I understand this.
…

Good. Then you should have no trouble understanding why abortion should be illegal. I don’t even know why we are having this conversation since the Bishops have stated that abortion is an intrinsic evil no circumstances] and that we Catholics have an obligation to change society. How can you work to eliminate abortion and at the same time support it? Answer: you can’t.

 

[pensmama87]

Good. Then you should have no trouble understanding why abortion should be illegal. I don’t even know why we are having this conversation since the Bishops have stated that abortion is an intrinsic evil no circumstances] and that we Catholics have an obligation to change society. How can you work to eliminate abortion and at the same time support it? Answer: you can’t.

I’m very confused. You understand I’m not the OP and do not agree with the OP?

I was asking the OP to clarify his or her position.

 

[unstoppable_II]

I’m very confused. You understand I’m not the OP and do not agree with the OP?

I was asking the OP to clarify his or her position.

I got confused as well. I don’t know why she brings up abortion because the bishops have condemned it as an intrinsic evil. For her edification:
The Challenge of Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship
Issued by USCCB, November 14, 2007
usccb.org/bishops/FCBullInsert.pdf

Signing off this thread.

 

[ahs]

Can I have the opinion of allowing killing an innocent human child in the womb] to be legal? I think it is their personal choice [to kill an innocent person], even though I do not support it, and in fact think it is totally wrong and horrible. I do not want to outlaw the killing of innocent unborn children**] mainly because i do not want them to kill these babies] at home and injure themselves while killing their children]. I support the legalness of killing the innocent], as I do with gay rights, they have a right to kill anyone] they want even though I think it is wrong and I do not support it.

I wanna repeat I do not support the things they do but I do support the cause to allow them to kill their children] and learn themselves, as God allows evil I want to allow the killing of innocent babies].

Let us not argue at this but be reasonable adults and not let religion affect our behavior.

I just wanted to put what you said in perspective…taking it to its logical conclusion. (See bold in the quote above.) Remember, you are talking about abortion, being personally against it, but wishing it to remain legal.

What you are proposing is EXACTLY like saying, “I think it would be horrible for my mom to kill me, but I support her legal right to kill me.”

 

[ahs]

No I believe some rights should be limited …

The right to life? Should the right to life be limited?

Here’s something else to keep in mind: abortion does not happen to the woman who aborts a baby. Abortion happens to the baby. The woman is not sucked out of the womb through a tube with razors at the tip of it. Nor is the woman pulled into pieces, or bathed in caustic solutions that burn her skin off, etc. Abortion happens to a baby who has not been given a right to life. If a person does not have the right to life, how can any other rights matter?

 

[Corki]

This is what i believe that it is bad if you’re catholic and you do this:

Vote for abortion being legal and support the action

I believe it is fine if you do this:

Vote for abortion legalness and reject the action

I think most people think I am with the top action not the second.

In both of your examples, your action is the same - to vote to keep legal an immoral and deadly activity. In neither case would that action be “fine”.

 

[Rau]

…Let us not argue at this but be reasonable adults and not let religion affect our behavior.

 

[Rau]

… I support the legalness of this, as I do with gay rights, they have a right to do anything they want even though I think it is wrong and I do not support it.
…

In wanting abortion to be legal, and in wanting gay marriage to be legal, do you also want:

• abortion to be supported by health insurance and government subsidy;
• government programs to identify and promote abortion as a ‘medical’ option;
• marriage to be redefined in the law of your country;
• all adoption agencies to be compelled to view gay couples as equally suitable as candidate adoptive parents (subject only to other factors)

Had you simply said that gay persons have a (legal) right to do with each other as they please, including their physical relationship, I’d have agreed with you. But you take a step further and call on your State to go beyond allowing freedom, to actively endorse same sex sexual relationships. You give no explanation of how you came to that position despite your personal beliefs.