Having children

[manualman]

Abstinance and artificial birth control both are means of avoiding pregnancy. Therefore, they are morally equivalent. Is that the argument being put forth?

Think about that some more.

Dieting and puking up food before it is digested are both means of achieving weight loss. Are both these methods physically and psychologically equivalent? Of course not.

In both cases, just because the ENDS are the same does not make the MEANS morally equivalent. So what is wrong with the means of ABC versus NFP? One is much harder. That required sexual fasting period every month has an inherent way of making the couple face their reason for avoiding pregnancy and stripping away the rationalizations that we humans are so good at. Prayerfully practiced, it preserves the procreative link that is severed by ABC, even when NFP is used to avoid children.

But if you don’t use fasting in your prayer life and know the benefits there, what I said above won’t make a lick of sense. Try fasting in prayer first.

 

[MsOKing]

Actually, it’s just the RC interpretation of moral law. I know you like to think you’re the only ones who are right, but I, for one, don’t agree with you. Neither do millions of other people. So you do what you think is right for you and the rest of us will do the same.

I agree. I find it ironic that there are a good number of practicing catholics who use ABC or choose sterilization when they are ready to “close the door to life”. I know quite of few of these couples and some are close friends and family members. Regardless, I love them just the same, and will never condemn or preach to them.

Marriage and sex is for procreation only. Anything else is a sin. People who do not want children should never be married and should never have an intimate relationship with the opposite sex.

So starwynd, If you are married, do you only have sex when you know conception will take place? A women is fertile only so many days during a cycle.

Why did God give us humans the gift of pleasurable sex? If it was merely for the purpose of procreation, would we not be similar to animals that only mated for that said purpose?

 

[manualman]

Apparently people can do the research and come to different conclusions.

Sure an insignificant (at the time) Polish bishop weighed in with Paul VI on the issue before Humanae Vitae was written. I read that as MORE evidence of the Holy Spirit’s work, not less.

Don’t kid yourself that HV was the first time contraception came up. The practice is as old as sin itself, it just shows up in different forms as human technology moves on. Before HV was Casti Connubi, which was a catholic response to the FIRST christian group EVER to endorse contraception, the Anglicans.

Whether a pill, an IUD or the intestinal tissue of a sheep (ancient form of condoms), the issue is the same. Humanae Vitae is readily available on the Vatican website. Want evidence of its divine inspiration rather than mere human obstinacy? Read this excerpt, keeping in mind that this was written in the late 60’s BEFORE anybody could have humanly foreseen the consequences of the ‘sexual revolution’ :

"Responsible men can become more deeply convinced of the truth of the doctrine laid down by the Church on this issue if they reflect on the consequences of methods and plans for artificial birth control. Let them first consider how easily this course of action could open wide the way for marital infidelity and a general lowering of moral standards. Not much experience is needed to be fully aware of human weakness and to understand that human beings—and especially the young, who are so exposed to temptation—need incentives to keep the moral law, and it is an evil thing to make it easy for them to break that law. Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection. "

I call that PROPHETIC. He called every major trend we’ve seen develop in male-female relationships since the late 60’s:

1. Major increases in marital infidelity (including divorce, which is a form). Check.
2. Implicit in #1 is a decrease in interest and desire for marriage in the first place. Check.
3. Major increase in overall promiscuity. (OK, this one had already started in the 60’s)
4. Initiation of sexual promiscuity at much younger ages. Check.
5. Major increase in the sexual objectification of women. Check.

NOT possible for a celibate old man to do by himself.

 

[PennitentMan]

Sure an insignificant (at the time) Polish bishop weighed in with Paul VI on the issue before Humanae Vitae was written.

And I call that leading…and he didn’t just weigh in, more than 60% of H.V. was taken from the letter that Bishop Karol wrote…

He called every major trend we’ve seen develop in male-female relationships since the late 60’s:

1. Major increases in marital infidelity (including divorce, which is a form). Check.
2. Implicit in #1 is a decrease in interest and desire for marriage in the first place. Check.
3. Major increase in overall promiscuity. (OK, this one had already started in the 60’s)
4. Initiation of sexual promiscuity at much younger ages. Check.
5. Major increase in the sexual objectification of women. Check.

NOT possible for a celibate old man to do by himself.

All these Checks were already in place and trending rapidly downwards before this…way before this.

 

[PennitentMan]

I see I’m stuck in the same circular answers as before…

Goodbye.

 

[cat7]

Dieting and puking up food before it is digested are both means of achieving weight loss. Are both these methods physically and psychologically equivalent? Of course not

No, I’m sorry, Dieting and Puking have nothing in common.

 

[cat7]

PennitentMan: I see the same. It looks like nobody wants to open their mind and at least understand others.
Look, I understand about using birth control when you’re ‘going around’. But I’m a married woman, I’ve have only been with my husband. I did explain that but no one cares to understand.
Most of us don’t know how to read the Bible, it’s very complicated. Some will only read what they want to read and they believe what they want to believe. How can you inteprete the Bible if you don’t understand it? That’s why we’re going around in circles.
Thanks a lot for your postings!

 

[maryj]

PennitentMan: I see the same. It looks like nobody wants to open their mind and at least understand others.
Look, I understand about using birth control when you’re ‘going around’. But I’m a married woman, I’ve have only been with my husband. I did explain that but no one cares to understand.
Most of us don’t know how to read the Bible, it’s very complicated. Some will only read what they want to read and they believe what they want to believe. How can you inteprete the Bible if you don’t understand it? That’s why we’re going around in circles.
Thanks a lot for your postings!

Suggested reading catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0002.html

God Bless.

 

[bilop]

Actually, it’s just the RC interpretation of moral law. I know you like to think you’re the only ones who are right, but I, for one, don’t agree with you. Neither do millions of other people. So you do what you think is right for you and the rest of us will do the same.

Correct, but either the Church is right, or you are right. One or the other. (Personally, I’m sticking with the Church).

It can’t be true that contraception is wrong for practicing Catholics, and right for everyone else.

It’s either morally acceptable to God, or it’s not.

That’s all I’m saying.

God Bless

 

[Salonika]

Is it a sin to not ever want to have children?

No, Cat I don’t think it is a sin not to want to have children.

I knew at about 10 years of age that children were not for me. And as I grew older I realised that having them would be sinful - children should have parents who both want to have children and are able to bring them up properly.

You need to do what you consider is appropriate for you and your husband.

 

[Salonika]

Yes and many of those people that are in nursing homes have no one to visit them. There are some people that chose to not have children that now have no one to visit with them… Some of the people (young and old) in the same nursing facility as my mother never have anyone to visit and if they had family to help them with daily chores would not need to be in an institution if only they had minimal help.

It is great that your mother has a loving family to visit her but that is most probably because of the relationship you have with her.

There are people in nursing homes who never see their children, and while sometimes this is because they live too far away in others it is because family relationships have broken down. Having children does not guarantee visitors if you go into a nursing home.

What may be a better measure is whether people in nursing homes have visitors - including how many and how often.

 

[Newbie2]

In order to be open to having children, you cannot use artificial contraception or the birth control pill (which also acts as an abortifacient, killing already conceived children by not allowing them to implant on the uterine wall).

The Pill causes abortions, that’s the problem that some of us probably have here. It doesn’t only prevent pregnancy, it ends it. It kills the child before you know you’re pregnant, fertilization can happen while on the Pill- missed days or not. It also messes with your body due to all the hormones that shouldn’t be there.

.

Not all chemical BC works that way…some prevent ovulation, but good point on how the others work.

Marriage and sex is for procreation only. Anything else is a sin. .

Says you. This is not the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Check your post my friend…even the Catholic Church says that sex is for procreation AND unification.

…but this is.

 

[KathleenElsie]

It is great that your mother has a loving family to visit her but that is most probably because of the relationship you have with her.

There are people in nursing homes who never see their children, and while sometimes this is because they live too far away in others it is because family relationships have broken down. Having children does not guarantee visitors if you go into a nursing home.

What may be a better measure is whether people in nursing homes have visitors - including how many and how often.

For those that are long term residents the visitors came the first few days and weeks, some even have friends visit the first year on a regular basis.

The vast majority of residents I personally see have no visitors on any regular basis. Those that do have visitors tend to be family and extended family.

My family still is badly fractured and don’t speak with each other. This has not stopped them from interacting with mom on a regular basis as travel and jobs allow.