Having children

[CaliLobo]

The breakdown in morals is reflected in the number of unmarried men and women living together, the number of illegitimate births, the number of divorces, the huge rate of abortions which are government supported, the use of contraceptives and the push for same-sex unions as a “marriage”.

Living a chaste unmarried life is perfectly worthy.

Marriage is meant for procreation and education and to marry while deliberately denying the main purpose of marriage is a grave fault. The birth dearth which is depopulating so many nations points to the need of a return to morality and sanity. Abortions and contraceptives are a major reason for the birth dearth.

There is no correlation between cohabitation and the birth dearth.

There’s no correlation between SSM and the birth dearth.

There’s no correlation between divorce and the birth dearth.

None of the above three affect people’s desire or lack thereof to have children.

Illegitimate births are contrary to the birth dearth, by definition.

The rise of abortion and contraception, I contend, is not a function of the breakdown of morals, but is instead a function of the rising economic costs of childrearing.

The rise of divorce is not a function of the breakdown of morals. Polls show most still “believe in marriage”. However, there is no economic incentive for people to stay together, as they did in ancient times. Because today, there is no economic advantage to remain married; one can do just fine economically as a single person.

Bans on abortion or contraception, if they were to occur, would not change the economic costs of childrearing, or the economic demand for ways to curtail the number of births. In fact, a major argument against banning abortion is that it would be done unsafely and illegally underground (“back alley abortion”).

 

[Melissa]

Okay, let’s break down the $266770 figure I obtained.

Remember, I clicked that I would pay for a four-year college. Assume that costs $25000/year for tuition and housing (a low estimate), and that it takes 4 years to graduate (another low estimate). So let’s subtract $100000 and we have $166770.

$166770 divided by 18 (assuming 18 is the age of majority) is $9265 per year for 18 years. A very reasonable figure.

Want a further breakdown?

Unfortunately, children do more than one activity and don’t commit from ages 6-18. Most activities are way more costly than piano. Most sports (travel, equipment, coaching, organized leagues) are very expensive. What if your child does two or three, concurrently? What if your child gets serious and has a shot at the college level? You don’t want him to be left out; you want him to keep up with his peers, right?

Assuming your child does 3 activities concurrently which are as cheap as piano lessons, that’s $3240 a year. $9265 - $3240 = $6025.

How about food? Let’s say you go cheap and spend about $20/week for food. $20 * 52 = $1040 per year. That assumes a lot of mac and cheese, which you wouldn’t feed your child every day. $6025 - $1040 = $4985.

How about utilities and gas? Assume $200/month for utilities, gas, and cell phone if you live single. We can safely assume an increase for the utilities attributable to the child, especially for cell phone and transportation for the child. Let’s say $100/month increase, for $1200/year. $4985 - $1200 = $3785.

Now, $3785 remains. Some of that goes to gifts and clothes. Some of it may go to medical expenses. Hopefully he has good vision; yearly eye exams and contacts/glasses are about $200. Hope he is healthy in general.

So yes, although Babies 'R Us is a sponsor of the Cost of A Child Calculator, we can see that a few back-of-the-envelope calculations prove that their figures are reasonable.

And it is just as possible to make other choices where their figures are so grossly over-inflated. I’m a single mother, not by choice. My children’s father does not contribute anything.

Community college for the first two years will cost approximately $6000/year (including the costs of getting there and back). University of Illinois (not at all a shabby school, academically) is about $12000/year. SIU (Southern Illinois University, also a pretty good school) is about the same price. So now, all four years are clocking in at well under $40k. (And how on earth is it a “low estimate” to suppose that a child can complete a 4 year degree in … 4 years??). Not all of that will be out of my pocket–they will probably work part time as well as applying for financial assistance.

Public school–I live in a community where the standards are such that I am comfortable with public school (no teaching my children how to put a condom on a banana, for example). Sports/other activities – middle son is into baseball, my daughter plays the flute, youngest son enjoys art (there are summer classes at the art museum–fun stuff like action painting and pottery). I got her a used flute for $200 (it is a really good one for a beginner flute), and I know how to shop the sales for things that they want/need. Clothing–yes, there are some nice consignment stores. They can wear Hollister and Aeropostle like a lot of their friends, but I am paying pennies on the dollar for their clothing. All four children clothing and activities total up to about $1500/year (ok, let’s round up, $1600, so that’s $400/year on clothes and activities). For $90 (included in above figure) the three children who want to can get a pass for the pool to go every day during summer.

Utilities … quite frankly, $200 for a single person is extraordinarily high. I spend about $250 for the 5 of us for electric and gas. Water runs about $80/mo for 5 people (one of which is me) and a dog. Cable/phone/internet runs at about $160–but I’d be spending that whether I lived with them or alone. Cell phones–we use pay as you go phones. Oldest gets $100/year, I spend about $80/year, and middle son is around the same as oldest. Let’s say I get the other two children phones, too–it’s still going to be around $8-10/mo for the phones.

Groceries–yeah, I’m cheap. I spend about $800/mo on food for 5 people and about another $60/mo on miscellaneous stuff like paper goods (toilet paper and paper towels, shampoo, soap, and other grooming items).

Transportation–well, they have feet for a lot of it, and I’ll grant that I have more car than I would necessarily want without the four children (I have a 2005 Buick Lacrosse), but the cost differences attributable to my children is pretty negligible. I spend about $100/mo on gas (and about 75% of my driving is stuff that I would be doing w/o the children–going back and forth to work, going back and forth to church and the store), my insurance costs aren’t increased because I have children, and maintenance of the vehicle also is not directly corresponding to the children vs what I’d spend if I were alone.

That covers the needs. I also am able to contribute to my parish and supply my children with a fair amount of wants as well. So take that $9200/year figure and divide it by three–yes, you can raise a child on that amount per year and they won’t even be deprived relative to their friends. So no–cost is NOT a factor. Of course, a lot of people think they need a bigger house, newer and better stuff–but it just ain’t so.

 

[Abu]

CaliLobo 19/4/13 10:39 am #21
The rise of abortion and contraception, I contend, is not a function of the breakdown of morals

False.

US since 1973: Roe vs Wade over 56,133,415 abortion deaths.
numberofabortions.com/

Those who are faithful shun both as grave evils, and know that NBR is worthy for grave reasons. Placing economics above morals is moronic.

The benefits of medical science, the opportunities for sufficient and better diets, the giant strides through free enterprise, based on reason and faith, have all contributed to longer life, more healthy children growing to adulthood, and societies better equipped to overcome problems.

Against these valuable human endeavours have intruded the humanly destructive trends against reason and faith – the contraceptive mentality which has become the abortion mentality, and of euthanasia, IVF, and other degrading practices.

 

[Joe_5859]

Okay, let’s break down the $266770 figure I obtained.

Remember, I clicked that I would pay for a four-year college. Assume that costs $25000/year for tuition and housing (a low estimate), and that it takes 4 years to graduate (another low estimate). So let’s subtract $100000 and we have $166770.

$166770 divided by 18 (assuming 18 is the age of majority) is $9265 per year for 18 years. A very reasonable figure.

Want a further breakdown?

Let’s say your child only does one activity (piano lessons) from age 6 to 18. A used piano can be found for free, but piano lessons (for me in 1998) cost $90 a month, or $1080 a year. $9265 - $1080 = $8185.

Unfortunately, children do more than one activity and don’t commit from ages 6-18. Most activities are way more costly than piano. Most sports (travel, equipment, coaching, organized leagues) are very expensive. What if your child does two or three, concurrently? What if your child gets serious and has a shot at the college level? You don’t want him to be left out; you want him to keep up with his peers, right?

Assuming your child does 3 activities concurrently which are as cheap as piano lessons, that’s $3240 a year. $9265 - $3240 = $6025.

(Yes, these costs aren’t incurred during the first 6 years, but other costs are.)

How about food? Let’s say you go cheap and spend about $20/week for food. $20 * 52 = $1040 per year. That assumes a lot of mac and cheese, which you wouldn’t feed your child every day. $6025 - $1040 = $4985.

How about utilities and gas? Assume $200/month for utilities, gas, and cell phone if you live single. We can safely assume an increase for the utilities attributable to the child, especially for cell phone and transportation for the child. Let’s say $100/month increase, for $1200/year. $4985 - $1200 = $3785.

We haven’t included Catholic education, which you guys have admitted is $7500 to $15000 a year. It’s already a nonstarter with the budget I proposed, and most people wouldn’t accept payment to live in Wichita (although I do think Kansas is nice).

Now, $3785 remains. Some of that goes to gifts and clothes. Some of it may go to medical expenses. Hopefully he has good vision; yearly eye exams and contacts/glasses are about $200. Hope he is healthy in general.

Hope you’re not Asian like me so you don’t feel compelled to pay for tutoring for your child (which, in Asia, is as expensive as Catholic education, and is therefore a major cause of birth dearth there)!

You’ll also need to save some for a rainy day.

Hope his college is really $25000/year. Private colleges are much more.

So yes, although Babies 'R Us is a sponsor of the Cost of A Child Calculator, we can see that a few back-of-the-envelope calculations prove that their figures are reasonable.

There are so many assumptions here I don’t know where to begin.

First, parents are not obligated to finance their children’s college education 100%. My parents certainly didn’t and I’m very glad they didn’t make that a criterion before deciding they could have me.

Utilities do not go up $100 per child. I have spreadsheets for all my utility payments for the last ten years and there as no noticeable increase in any of them after having my two kids.

Piano lessons every single month for 12 years straight? I don’t know anyone who has done an activity like that. The soccer program in my area costs something like $75 for the season. $90 a month on kids activities is a very high estimate and one that I certainly am not paying.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Certainly you can spend that money if you are so inclined. But it isn’t even close to being necessary.

 

[CaliLobo]

There are so many assumptions here I don’t know where to begin.

First, parents are not obligated to finance their children’s college education 100%. My parents certainly didn’t and I’m very glad they didn’t make that a criterion before deciding they could have me.

Utilities do not go up $100 per child. I have spreadsheets for all my utility payments for the last ten years and there as no noticeable increase in any of them after having my two kids.

Piano lessons every single month for 12 years straight? I don’t know anyone who has done an activity like that. The soccer program in my area costs something like $75 for the season. $90 a month on kids activities is a very high estimate and one that I certainly am not paying.

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Certainly you can spend that money if you are so inclined. But it isn’t even close to being necessary.

You don’t understand how mathematical estimation works.

There’s no way I’m gonna calculate a detailed budget for you, because the budget is highly variant for everyone.

Instead, we make reasonable assumptions to simplify our calculations. This is done in business to come up with a business plan (which requires predicting the future). It is also done in environmental science to estimate the global or national environmental impact of various things (which is extremely broad), and to calculate the total cost (materials, energy, etc.) of manufacturing a glass Coke bottle from sand to recycling bin, using life cycle analysis.

First, I understand in white culture, parents let their children become fully independent at age 18. But that is NOT true in Asian, Middle Eastern, or Hispanic cultures, which are much more family oriented. To this day, as a 32-year old Asian, I choose to do and not do things to avoid disappointing my parents. I don’t get tattoos, I don’t dye my hair, I don’t eat the blackened part of the meat, I don’t drink soju (Korean rice wine), I don’t visit my extended family, and the list goes on and on. It is not like white culture, where I can just say “Forget my parents; I’m doing what I want.”

In Asia, the cost of college DOES count toward the cost of raising a child. (The cost of education, namely college and tutoring, is the major driving factor behind the birth dearth in Japan and Korea. In China, peer pressure to have just one child despite relaxation of the one-child policy is the major factor.)

But this can’t be limited to just Asians. Do all white parents NOT pay for college? I’ve noticed that some white families DO pay for college. How else to explain that white students in 4-year colleges tend to be affluent?

But you’re right, the value of college is being questioned, and maybe those that go to cheap community colleges are doing the smart thing financially. And maybe struggling to work and study, causing you to delay graduation until age 28 or so, is better for you because it fosters a sense of independence. But if you’re not happy with that assumption, let’s subtract $100000 for a total of $166770, which is still very high.

When factoring in the cost of gas to transport children, and also expensive cell phone plans, plus the increased water, gas, and electric that children use, it is very reasonable that utilities can be $100/month per child, especially since cell phone plans alone are $50/month.

I simplified the cost of activities by assuming that a child takes piano lessons for 12 years, because piano is a cheap activity. A few kids do stick with music that long. But most kids not only switch activities, they do multiple activities concurrently, and do expensive activities. Most kids, instead of music, play sports, which is very expensive when considering the equipment, coaching, and travel.

So I was generous with my estimation method.

There’s a cheap way to raise children. Only shop in Wal-Mart and the thrift stores, don’t sign your children up for any activities, don’t give them cell phones, skimp on healthcare, eat a lot of mac and cheese, expose your children to the indoctrination of free public education, strive for community college which limits career options…

 

[Melissa]

I simplified the cost of activities by assuming that a child takes piano lessons for 12 years, because piano is a cheap activity. A few kids do stick with music that long. But most kids not only switch activities, they do multiple activities concurrently, and do expensive activities. Most kids, instead of music, play sports, which is very expensive when considering the equipment, coaching, and travel.

So I was generous with my estimation method.

There’s a cheap way to raise children. Only shop in Wal-Mart and the thrift stores, don’t sign your children up for any activities, don’t give them cell phones, skimp on healthcare, eat a lot of mac and cheese, expose your children to the indoctrination of free public education, strive for community college which limits career options…

Or, if you read my prior post, you would see that there is not only a cheap way to raise children, it does not impose the deprivation that you are positing.

For example, my middle son plays baseball. There is no expense for coaching, a $40 glove (which he will use until it wears out or his hand grows–and earlier/smaller gloves were cheaper) breaks down to approximately 83 cents per month (because baseball isn’t just an “in season” thing). He previously played with a summer league that cost around $50/season, but he’s aged out of their program so he’s working with the high school. Cleats run about $40, but are free for those who make the team. Pants are around $10 each, I like to have three pair (one on, one in the wash, one in the drawer). Practice shirts–supplied. Game shirts–supplied. Travel–he goes on a bus with the team, and due to my work schedule, going to away games is not possible; as it is, I miss approximately half of home games (I usually get there somewhere between the 3-5th inning in a 7 inning game). So now, we’re looking at about $6/mo in necessary expenses–and that is for someone who is a serious high school-level athlete. My daughter plays the flute–$25 for the occasional private lesson (I played piano so I can read music enough to teach her how to practice, but for some flute-specific skills, I have to get someone who knows flute to teach her how to do things; also with the school band, she gets limited instruction from the band teacher), $200 for the flute itself (eventually, I may have to get her a better flute but again that initial cost may be high but divide by the number of months (probably starting at 60–or 5 years or 72–6 years, but possibly add another 48 for the years in college) for a monthly cost. When they have contests and parades in other communities, they also bus the band. I pay nothing for her participation in the band, although I did fork out $7 for a once-a-year contest (where she earned a first rank w/ 35 of 35 possible points). Youngest son is into art … paper, colored pencils, paint. Also, those summer classes of which the most expensive is $35 (and that is only once a year, not monthly). Their swimming passes are $30/child/season (obviously well worth it when the ordinary entry fee is $3/day without the pass). It simply isn’t reasonable to choose an extremely expensive activity (private lessons) and extrapolate from that. So, from real life experiences, averaging out to a monthly basis for annual costs, activities are more likely to run in the vicinity of $20-30 per month for multiple activities per year.

Yes, we shop at Kohl’s and consignment stores when the brand name “matters” (to them, not me). Groceries are also not really linear with the number of people being fed (not to mention home growing/farmer’s markets, and the ubiquitous zucchini that you have to hide from).

Utilities–again, providing cell phones doesn’t equate to spending for a spendy cell phone plan. We all (who currently have them) run on pay-as-you-go–and yes, that’s not unlimited, but $100/year for the children (I spend a lot less, I’m buying the cheapest card I can go extend my time by 3 months as I am more likely to run out of authorized time than minutes). And family plans usually do not involve $50/mo/person. I’ve seen them usually run around $10/mo for the third and each additional person.

Community college for the first two years is hardly a career-limiting choice. Estimates are that about 40% or more of university students in the coming years will be transfers from community colleges. The education, quite frankly, is better in the community college–for freshmen-level courses, you could have a class of 30 taught by the actual professor, or a lecture hall of 300 taught by a graduate student.

Quite frankly, calculators like the one that sparked this part of the discussion are predicated on the notion that nothing less than “the best” will do and predispose people to seeing their potential children as burdens rather than blessings. And that attitude is true poverty.

 

[TimeEntrance]

First, parents are not obligated to finance their children’s college education 100%. My parents certainly didn’t and I’m very glad they didn’t make that a criterion before deciding they could have me.

They are not obligated to finance or provide their children with a primary education throughout many rural swaths of Brazil and throughout much of the developing world too.

As an imperfect analogy I recall that its said that the United States originally entered the Vietnam War using WWII tactics.

My parents did me and my brothers a great service by sending us to Catholic schools 1 through 12th grades. I say that after seeing some of the students the Milwaukee Public Schools graduated. Entering community college–college for the first time–at age 35 I was more equipped even after that long nap, than a lot if not most the 18 and 19 year old graduates of MPS entering into that same community college.

Sending us to Catholic school was not cheap. My parents made a great financial sacrifice in the hopes that we could have a better future.

My parents did not pay for my brother’s college education and they’ve not paid for mine. Their parents would not have done it for them either. But the world has changed within the developed nations with their primary service based economies. I would hope I could afford to pay for my children’s college education. For one reason, this is not the 1960s were a cost of a class at my community college coasted $5.00 or out in California it was free altogether. Today it is very expensive. It would be better my children graduate from law school, optometry school, or getting their master’s degree in military history not saddled with the burden of debt.

And I’m not sure a Catholic education is worth the bucks spent (and possibly lower GPA) today. Strategically. My brother sends his kids to public school because they can’t afford private schools. And my nephews probably receive a better education than we did through 12 years of Catholic schooling to be honest. That’s because they went to a German immersion school and can speak German now, and one of them is not even in high school yet. A language deficit can be a hindrance in an increasing global economy.

So, strategically, I ponder if it may be wiser to skip Catholic schooling and save money for their short college career.

I would probably not pay for a doctoral degree for them but it seems to me that if I have the money it is my obligation to pay for their schooling through professional degree or master’s degree (albeit a medical degree would be a doctoral degree I guess).

It’s unfortunate that there are children throughout huge swaths of the planet that will not ever graduate from primary school. That I can send my child to public school in the United States is evidence of the inequity of life. That I may send my child through law school while many parents may not pay for one year of their child’s college education in the United States is evidence of the inequity of life.

But the theory of evolution, the battle and intra-species competition (and above the cellular level, most competition is intra-species), provides the most explanation for this apparent unfairness in life. For me at least.

I also subscribe–to some extent–from an Africology course I took, that your name is not your first name but your surname. For an atheist like Richard Dawkins it’s not even your surname but the continuation, reproduction, and possibly immortality of your genes. I guess my point is… “the future” is beyond just myself. It is as it were, and as history seems to remember certain names and forget others, the “Borgias’.”

 

[TimeEntrance]

Or, if you read my prior post, you would see that there is not only a cheap way to raise children, it does not impose the deprivation that you are positing.

For example, my middle son plays baseball. There is no expense for coaching, a $40 glove (which he will use until it wears out or his hand grows–and earlier/smaller gloves were cheaper) breaks down to approximately 83 cents per month (because baseball isn’t just an “in season” thing). He previously played with a summer league that cost around $50/season, but he’s aged out of their program so he’s working with the high school. Cleats run about $40, but are free for those who make the team. Pants are around $10 each, I like to have three pair (one on, one in the wash, one in the drawer). Practice shirts–supplied. Game shirts–supplied. Travel–he goes on a bus with the team, and due to my work schedule, going to away games is not possible; as it is, I miss approximately half of home games (I usually get there somewhere between the 3-5th inning in a 7 inning game). So now, we’re looking at about $6/mo in necessary expenses–and that is for someone who is a serious high school-level athlete. My daughter plays the flute–$25 for the occasional private lesson (I played piano so I can read music enough to teach her how to practice, but for some flute-specific skills, I have to get someone who knows flute to teach her how to do things; also with the school band, she gets limited instruction from the band teacher), $200 for the flute itself (eventually, I may have to get her a better flute but again that initial cost may be high but divide by the number of months (probably starting at 60–or 5 years or 72–6 years, but possibly add another 48 for the years in college) for a monthly cost. When they have contests and parades in other communities, they also bus the band. I pay nothing for her participation in the band, although I did fork out $7 for a once-a-year contest (where she earned a first rank w/ 35 of 35 possible points). Youngest son is into art … paper, colored pencils, paint. Also, those summer classes of which the most expensive is $35 (and that is only once a year, not monthly). Their swimming passes are $30/child/season (obviously well worth it when the ordinary entry fee is $3/day without the pass). It simply isn’t reasonable to choose an extremely expensive activity (private lessons) and extrapolate from that. So, from real life experiences, averaging out to a monthly basis for annual costs, activities are more likely to run in the vicinity of $20-30 per month for multiple activities per year.

Yes, we shop at Kohl’s and consignment stores when the brand name “matters” (to them, not me). Groceries are also not really linear with the number of people being fed (not to mention home growing/farmer’s markets, and the ubiquitous zucchini that you have to hide from).

Utilities–again, providing cell phones doesn’t equate to spending for a spendy cell phone plan. We all (who currently have them) run on pay-as-you-go–and yes, that’s not unlimited, but $100/year for the children (I spend a lot less, I’m buying the cheapest card I can go extend my time by 3 months as I am more likely to run out of authorized time than minutes). And family plans usually do not involve $50/mo/person. I’ve seen them usually run around $10/mo for the third and each additional person.

Community college for the first two years is hardly a career-limiting choice. Estimates are that about 40% or more of university students in the coming years will be transfers from community colleges. The education, quite frankly, is better in the community college–for freshmen-level courses, you could have a class of 30 taught by the actual professor, or a lecture hall of 300 taught by a graduate student.

Quite frankly, calculators like the one that sparked this part of the discussion are predicated on the notion that nothing less than “the best” will do and predispose people to seeing their potential children as burdens rather than blessings. And that attitude is true poverty.

I like this post.

 

[jmcrae]

Just talking to a few young unmarried women who work in my apartment complex, and they raised some interesting points.

In CAF and among practicing Catholics, there seems to be a mentality that there are two vocations: consecrated life, or marriage WITH children. It almost seems to be that if a Catholic is married and chooses not to have children, that he or she is from Mars–like why would someone choose such a thing.

Part of the wedding vow is to be open to the children that God will send you.

1. But in a fallen world like ours, isn’t it better for people to contribute to organizations that take care of children in need, instead of bringing even more children into our world?

There are places in the world that have issues of crowding, but in Europe and North America, our population is actually reducing quite badly - we have a serious shortage of children and younger workers. Immigration is a short-term solution, but we really need to repopulate these areas with people who are native to the area.

1. Isn’t the economic cost of having children (approx. $266770 depending on what you put down in http://www.babycenter.com/cost-of-raising-child-calculator) a legitimate reason for a woman to choose not to have a child? (I checked the box that says I would pay for a four-year college, and in East Asia, college tuition DOES count toward the cost of childrearing.) Isn’t simple economics the major reason for decline in birthrates, and not a breakdown of morals?

Most of the “cost of raising a child” are costs that you have to pay anyway. You aren’t going to buy each of your children his own house to live in - they are going to live in your house. So the cost of housing your children is the same as you would have to pay even if you had no children, unless you choose to live in a tent or in a student apartment for your entire married life.

Some of the costs are optional - for example, you can send your children to public school instead of paying tuition for private schools every year.

Transportation costs - your children are going to ride in your car; each child isn’t going to get his or her own car.

Clothes - yes, your children are going to need clothes, but in the younger years, you don’t have to buy them new outfits for everything - you can get clothes for kids from secondhand stores, and have one or two new outfits each year for Church and for formal occasions. If your kids are eating what you eat, then the cost of food won’t actually be that much higher than buying for yourselves. Adults eat a lot more than kids do. Teenagers do eat a lot, but they can also get jobs - and if they work at a fast-food place, they get one free meal a day, and with the money they earn, they can also buy their own lunches, so again, yes, you will have to buy food for them, but it’s not going to be $20,000.00 a year or whatever.

 

[Ophelia23]

You don’t understand how mathematical estimation works.

There’s no way I’m gonna calculate a detailed budget for you, because the budget is highly variant for everyone.

Instead, we make reasonable assumptions to simplify our calculations. This is done in business to come up with a business plan (which requires predicting the future). It is also done in environmental science to estimate the global or national environmental impact of various things (which is extremely broad), and to calculate the total cost (materials, energy, etc.) of manufacturing a glass Coke bottle from sand to recycling bin, using life cycle analysis.

First, I understand in white culture, parents let their children become fully independent at age 18. But that is NOT true in Asian, Middle Eastern, or Hispanic cultures, which are much more family oriented. To this day, as a 32-year old Asian, I choose to do and not do things to avoid disappointing my parents. I don’t get tattoos, I don’t dye my hair, I don’t eat the blackened part of the meat, I don’t drink soju (Korean rice wine), I don’t visit my extended family, and the list goes on and on. It is not like white culture, where I can just say “Forget my parents; I’m doing what I want.”

In Asia, the cost of college DOES count toward the cost of raising a child. (The cost of education, namely college and tutoring, is the major driving factor behind the birth dearth in Japan and Korea. In China, peer pressure to have just one child despite relaxation of the one-child policy is the major factor.)

But this can’t be limited to just Asians. Do all white parents NOT pay for college? I’ve noticed that some white families DO pay for college. How else to explain that white students in 4-year colleges tend to be affluent?

But you’re right, the value of college is being questioned, and maybe those that go to cheap community colleges are doing the smart thing financially. And maybe struggling to work and study, causing you to delay graduation until age 28 or so, is better for you because it fosters a sense of independence. But if you’re not happy with that assumption, let’s subtract $100000 for a total of $166770, which is still very high.

When factoring in the cost of gas to transport children, and also expensive cell phone plans, plus the increased water, gas, and electric that children use, it is very reasonable that utilities can be $100/month per child, especially since cell phone plans alone are $50/month.

I simplified the cost of activities by assuming that a child takes piano lessons for 12 years, because piano is a cheap activity. A few kids do stick with music that long. But most kids not only switch activities, they do multiple activities concurrently, and do expensive activities. Most kids, instead of music, play sports, which is very expensive when considering the equipment, coaching, and travel.

So I was generous with my estimation method.
**
There’s a cheap way to raise children. Only shop in Wal-Mart and the thrift stores, don’t sign your children up for any activities, don’t give them cell phones, skimp on healthcare, eat a lot of mac and cheese, expose your children to the indoctrination of free public education, strive for community college which limits career options… **

This is so laden with judgement and materialism that it is borderline offensive. While we live on meagre means, my family eats well. We are clothed and comfortable with a warm home and beds to sleep in. We support local business and grow food we can eat. We eat meat, vegetables, grains, fruit… and the only Mac and cheese we eat is home made from grandma’s recipe. We bake our own bread. We don’t have cell phones, nor do we want them. We partake in swimming lessons, gymnastics, and mommy and me classes offered through the community education programs. If you want to talk about poverty, I humbly suggest you review your attitude against those who have less than you personally deem to be enough.

 

[StefanArt]

“Marriage is for procreation”. So many Catholics agree, and yet look at the size of the families in the churches today. Irish immigrants tell of being raised in households of 7, 8, 12 members, and today, at my parish, couples tend to stop at 1 to 4.
And then there are the couples that have no children by choice, faithfully attending mass for years. Either contraception use is the biggest white elephant in the room, or my fellow 21st C american married citizens are only copulating a few times a year…
I have a bridge here on the ready, in case you’re in the market to buy one.

 

[jmcrae]

“Marriage is for procreation”. So many Catholics agree, and yet look at the size of the families in the churches today. Irish immigrants tell of being raised in households of 7, 8, 12 members, and today, at my parish, couples tend to stop at 1 to 4.
And then there are the couples that have no children by choice, faithfully attending mass for years. Either contraception use is the biggest white elephant in the room, or my fellow 21st C american married citizens are only copulating a few times a year…
I have a bridge here on the ready, in case you’re in the market to buy one.

Television and shift-work are also very effective contraceptives.

 

[aemcpa]

“Marriage is for procreation”. So many Catholics agree, and yet look at the size of the families in the churches today. Irish immigrants tell of being raised in households of 7, 8, 12 members, and today, at my parish, couples tend to stop at 1 to 4.
And then there are the couples that have no children by choice, faithfully attending mass for years. Either contraception use is the biggest white elephant in the room, or my fellow 21st C american married citizens are only copulating a few times a year…
I have a bridge here on the ready, in case you’re in the market to buy one.

In my parish, the priests preach against contraception and in favor of the nature of Christian marriage. And there are plenty of couples who stop at 2 or 3 or 4, but we have our share of families with 5+ kids as well, and a few with as many as 10-12. We also have a pair of sisters with 8 each.

 

[zz912]

“Marriage is for procreation”. So many Catholics agree, and yet look at the size of the families in the churches today. Irish immigrants tell of being raised in households of 7, 8, 12 members, and today, at my parish, couples tend to stop at 1 to 4.
And then there are the couples that have no children by choice, faithfully attending mass for years. Either contraception use is the biggest white elephant in the room, or my fellow 21st C american married citizens are only copulating a few times a year…
I have a bridge here on the ready, in case you’re in the market to buy one.

I would disagree with this statement. Most Catholics are woefully ignorant of their faith, ESPECIALLY when it comes to sex and sexuality, and marriage. They are also woefully misinformed to believe that the Catholic faith is a buffet line that they can pick and choose what they like, and ignore the rest. They were never taught anything about these topics when they were growing up and “learning” the faith.

And most of them will never hear anything different during the homilies at Mass.

 

[Abu]

The redefinition of marriage: the fight is about justice
by Denise J. Hunnell, MD
Tue Apr 16, 2013
Extract:
The quest for marriage by homosexual activists did not spring forth as an isolated movement. Rather, it is a progression of the assault on marriage that has occurred over the last century. When the culture separated procreation and marriage, the door was opened for endless permutations of adult relationships. Once marriage was perceived as merely a vehicle for adult happiness, divorce became the logical result when happiness in a relationship is diminished or absent. Commitment until parted by death has devolved into commitment until it is no longer fun. With the permanence of marriage increasingly absent in our popular culture, is it any wonder that some are foregoing marriage altogether?

Currently, over 40% of all births in the United States occur out of wedlock. Nearly 73% of children born to black mothers and 53% of children born to Hispanic mothers are born outside of marriage.

Those who wish to defend marriage as a unique union between one man and one woman must defend marriage against all constructs of marriage that ignore the raison d’etre of marriage is children. Failure to do so will remove all justification to limit the gender or even the number of adults who can be joined in a relationship that is legally identified as marriage. Such a redefinition of marriage makes it increasingly difficult if not impossible to defend the intrinsic human dignity of children when their very existence is consigned to the whims of adults.

As a matter of justice, the centrality of children to the purpose of marriage must be preserved.
tinyurl.com/cz882q5

That said, the rate of increase of the world’s population is massively down, populations will start to dwindle, and as more Catholics learn and assent to the teaching of the Church there should be an increase as a percentage of the population.

 

[Cojuanco]

Television and shift-work are also very effective contraceptives.

The latter is why I am an only child (both Mom and Dad worked until late - I was pretty much either a latchkey kid or in an after-school program). If Mother and Father are working long, demanding jobs, either they never see each other long enough to have sex, or the spirit is willing but not the flesh. The reason my grandparents had so many kids is because, in an earlier time, bosses weren’t as universally insistent on working their employees to the bone.

 

[zz912]

The reason my grandparents had so many kids is because, in an earlier time, bosses weren’t as universally insistent on working their employees to the bone.

This is just make-believe. Working conditions today are MUCH easier than compared to 50-100 years ago.

 

[Litcrit]

Haven’t read the replies, but I can say as a parent of 2 and counting that those cost calculators are absolutely ridiculous.

 

[CarlosLloyd]

Part of the wedding vow is to be open to the children that God will send you.

There are places in the world that have issues of crowding, but in Europe and North America, our population is actually reducing quite badly - we have a serious shortage of children and younger workers. Immigration is a short-term solution, but we really need to repopulate these areas with people who are native to the area.

Most of the “cost of raising a child” are costs that you have to pay anyway. You aren’t going to buy each of your children his own house to live in - they are going to live in your house. So the cost of housing your children is the same as you would have to pay even if you had no children, unless you choose to live in a tent or in a student apartment for your entire married life.

Some of the costs are optional - for example, you can send your children to public school instead of paying tuition for private schools every year.

Transportation costs - your children are going to ride in your car; each child isn’t going to get his or her own car.

Clothes - yes, your children are going to need clothes, but in the younger years, you don’t have to buy them new outfits for everything - you can get clothes for kids from secondhand stores, and have one or two new outfits each year for Church and for formal occasions. If your kids are eating what you eat, then the cost of food won’t actually be that much higher than buying for yourselves. Adults eat a lot more than kids do. Teenagers do eat a lot, but they can also get jobs - and if they work at a fast-food place, they get one free meal a day, and with the money they earn, they can also buy their own lunches, so again, yes, you will have to buy food for them, but it’s not going to be $20,000.00 a year or whatever.

I think it is horrible to have children without getting married. Culture is going in wrong direction.Couples need to plan well and then decide for children.

 

[CarlosLloyd]

Part of the wedding dresses vow is to be open to the children that God will send you.

There are places in the world that have issues of crowding, but in Europe and North America, our population is actually reducing quite badly - we have a serious shortage of children and younger workers. Immigration is a short-term solution, but we really need to repopulate these areas with people who are native to the area.

Most of the “cost of raising a child” are costs that you have to pay anyway. You aren’t going to buy each of your children his own house to live in - they are going to live in your house. So the cost of housing your children is the same as you would have to pay even if you had no children, unless you choose to live in a tent or in a student apartment for your entire married life.

Some of the costs are optional - for example, you can send your children to public school instead of paying tuition for private schools every year.

Transportation costs - your children are going to ride in your car; each child isn’t going to get his or her own car.

Clothes - yes, your children are going to need clothes, but in the younger years, you don’t have to buy them new outfits for everything - you can get clothes for kids from secondhand stores, and have one or two new outfits each year for Church and for formal occasions. If your kids are eating what you eat, then the cost of food won’t actually be that much higher than buying for yourselves. Adults eat a lot more than kids do. Teenagers do eat a lot, but they can also get jobs - and if they work at a fast-food place, they get one free meal a day, and with the money they earn, they can also buy their own lunches, so again, yes, you will have to buy food for them, but it’s not going to be $20,000.00 a year or whatever.

I think it is horrible to have children without getting married. Culture is going in wrong direction.Couples need to plan well and then decide for children.

What are your opinion friends children before marriage?