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wanner47
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Well, the analogy isn’t prefect, but my point is that going to someone’s home for dinner is no more condoning their sin than visiting someone in prison is condoning their crime.
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estesbob
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I agree about the dinner. However going to a homosexual wedding or the the reception is an affirmation of a sin.
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wanner47
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I fully agree with you.
I agree about the dinner. However going to a homosexual wedding or the the reception is an affirmation of a sin.
After I told my father I couldn’t attend his wedding, he said, “What about ‘honor your father and mother’?” I said to him, “Dad, I’m not honoring you if I condone or encourage you to sin. What if you were to rob a bank and you asked me to drive the getaway car? Would I be guilty of not ‘honoring’ you if I refused?” I was thinking about that conversation earlier today and that’s where the analogy comes from.
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rinnie
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Bottom line. Its easy to judge, until it comes to your doorstep, then its hell. Not saying that it is not a sin, but it hurts so bad. Agree with the Church, and God, but sometimes its so hard to do it. But we must!
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blessedtoo
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Like you, I find it very difficult to have a gay sister, as well as a plethora of gay friends left over from my pagan days. Like you, I pray constantly that they all find their way to the Truth.
It may be that NOW they do not believe they are sinning - because sinning over long periods of time does indeed dull the consicence. We all know this - we’ve all experienced it. As a very wise friend once said to me, “think back to the first time you committed the sin - did it feel wrong then?” I think this is crucial for all of us to reflect on. Of course, it is not for us to determine the disposition of anyone’s soul but it seems to me that most folks, gay or straight, can p(name removed by moderator)oint the first time a sin was committed and remember the response of appropriate guilt. If we soldier on through the guilt, constantly rationalizing, denying and persisting in the sin, we eventually no longer feel guilty. We have completely given over the “other side”. At any rate, this is my experience.
This particular situation doesn’t actually call for us to DO anything. It requires us to refrain from an action - the participation in something gravely wrong.
Refusing to attend a “gay wedding” does not require “preaching” or sermonizing. It doesn’t require us to pontificate about another’s sins or speculate on the state of their souls. In fact, not attending requires of us nothing more than the passive acknowledgement that we place God first. If our friends and family members already know our beliefs about homosexual behavior, there is no need to harangue. In fact, by not going, you say more than if you were to quote scripture, the catechism, and encyclicals combined!
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Stylteralmaldo
Guest
I was at a Catholic study group last night and we discussed this very topic. Someone from the group brought up something that I had not considered: why would the gay relative/friend invite you to a gay wedding knowing how you felt about their lifestyle choices? That homosexual individual would be acting selfishly by not taking into consideration the turmoil (moral dilemma) it would create for the person that would need to decide whether to accept or reject that invitation.
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blessedtoo
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I absolutely agree and that is what I meant in my above post:
Because homosexuals feel they have been “denied” rights by society and through their gay marriage initiatives they hope to legitimize a once universally considered immoral behavior, their efforts to persuade the naysayers may be more agressive then their straight counterparts.
A man and woman would likely not invite a friend or family member to a wedding that they KNEW that person objected to. What would be the point?
Through my very humble observations, I would conjecture that those immersed in the homosexual lifestyle do need to be “reminded” of where we stand. I say this because, as someone who WAS once immersed in it, the layers of denial are so think that one desperately clings to the hope that others will eventually accept homosexual behavior. I don’t address this issue directly with my sis every time we speak, but I ALWAYS verbally reinforce my committment to my faith when we converse. Since she too was raised in a strict Catholic home, she understands the nuance of Catholic morality. She has been known to say that she expects to “go to hell” for her choice to live as a practicing lesbian.
Like your friends in the discussion group, I too seriously question the motivation behind such invitations. Either the friend or family member is unclear about our position OR they are so desperate for validation that they will continue to push us in the hope of seeing us choose them over our beliefs.
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fix
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I really admire your posts.
This part right here really stands out to me. Of course, I cannot say this is true in any particular case, but it really seems like it may be subconsciously something people hope to achieve to validate their actions.
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blessedtoo
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Back at ya, Fix!
I agree - I would not want to generalize and assume this is the case for everyone. But even in my “loosest” understanding of the purpose of marriage, a couple typically wants friends and family to join in a “celebration” of their love. It’s hard for me to imagine myself feeling celebratory or jubilant when this situation runs so contrary to my beliefs. It’s equally hard for me to understand why someone about to embark on a gay marriage would WANT me there, knowing I won’t be “celebrating” the union.
Here is an example of what I mean.
My son and his fiance are finally marrying after 11 years of dating. When my boy was a youngin’, we were friends with a wonderful family of 7 children. One of them was a young girl his age. The father always expressed a yearning that the two of them might fall in love and marry when they got older. But my son met his girl instead and that was the end of that dream. HOWEVER, every time my son and his g-friend saw this man, the father of the old female friend, he would comment about his disappointment over the fact that his daughter and my son did not fall in love! He would make statements like, “I guess it’s never too late, as long as the two of you are still single!”. My future daughter-in-law would become irate over these comments and her anger and resentment grew over the years. Let me also add that this man is a notorious “jokester” and seriously meant no disrespect with his comments.
I have asked son and daughter-in-law to please invite this man, his wife, and their family (we were all very close at one time) to their wedding but SHE WILL NOT. She is completely opposed to having this man there because she believes he is still wishing, all these many years later, that my son had married his daughter.
Her reasons are quite silly, IMO, and I don’t agree with her decision. But there you are - she only wants those who are IN AGREEMENT and happy about her marrige to my son to be in attendance.
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Stylteralmaldo
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In the point you are making however, you don’t even agree with the girl.
In our wedding preparations, my future wife and I looked at several factors regarding who we would invite. We invited who we both wanted to be there because they were good friends of ours. In our case, I believe all of our friends agreed it was good that we got married. We also invited our families to our wedding, many of whom came, but also others who did not and also those whom I really don’t know all that well (I come from a very large extended family). I’m pretty sure there may have been some in attendence that did not approve of our wedding because the girl I married was not Catholic. Also, my wife’s mother went to the reception and I know she did not approve of the Catholic Church because her faith teaches the Catholic Church is Babylon the Great - and she practices that faith!
But why did she attend? Even today I am not entirely sure of her motives. Maybe she wanted to show some level of support for her daughter but at the same time make it clear she opposed the marriage by going to the reception and not the actual ceremony. Maybe she thought her attendence would keep open the possibility, no matter how small, that her daughter would return to her former faith. I think my wife wanted her mom at the wedding even though she knew her mom was not in agreement with what her daughter was doing (getting married to a Catholic). I think she wanted her mom to be there for her, not because she wanted her mother to necessarily agree with her choice.
Maybe now it is clearer the perspective I am bringing to this conversation and why I see such a decision as not as cut and dry in all cases.
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fix
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Yes, but “the girl” in this case is not invloved in a public sin.
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fix
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For me, this really is the point and I have not seen a reasonable answer from anyone explaining how these items are reconciled.
Take a look at this thread.
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SirOscar
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Much debate on this as displayed in the other thread.
No one commented on my post regarding the scriptures in Matthew. that says: “I require mercy, not sacrifice” so I will give you my thoughts.
**Jesus was with the disciples the very moment they sinned according to Jewish Law. **They picked grain of wheat in the very presence of God! They disobeyed one of the 10 commandments and Jesus allowed them to sin. Jesus did not slap the hands of his disciples and remind them that it was the sabbath. He knew they were hungry, so he had a little compassion for them.
Notice though, that Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for pointing out to him that the disciples sinned and said “If you knew what this meant, I desire mercy, not sacrifice, you would not have condemned these innocent men.”
Jesus did not rebuke the disciples for sinning, he rebuked the pharisees! The pharisees are noted for obeying the Jewish laws and making sure they perform their sacrifices to the letter of the law of sacrifices, so they may be ever pleasing in the eyes of God.
I sometimes wonder then, if perhaps Jesus is showing us that an act of mercy can be just as pleasing to God and might at times, outweigh the strict the adherence to the laws and sacrifices (thank God we do not have to perform any animal sacrifices to please Him today!)
What qualifies an act of mercy? Is going to a loved ones gay wedding an act of mercy?
Just my thought for the day.
No one commented on my post regarding the scriptures in Matthew. that says: “I require mercy, not sacrifice” so I will give you my thoughts.
**Jesus was with the disciples the very moment they sinned according to Jewish Law. **They picked grain of wheat in the very presence of God! They disobeyed one of the 10 commandments and Jesus allowed them to sin. Jesus did not slap the hands of his disciples and remind them that it was the sabbath. He knew they were hungry, so he had a little compassion for them.
Notice though, that Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for pointing out to him that the disciples sinned and said “If you knew what this meant, I desire mercy, not sacrifice, you would not have condemned these innocent men.”
Jesus did not rebuke the disciples for sinning, he rebuked the pharisees! The pharisees are noted for obeying the Jewish laws and making sure they perform their sacrifices to the letter of the law of sacrifices, so they may be ever pleasing in the eyes of God.
I sometimes wonder then, if perhaps Jesus is showing us that an act of mercy can be just as pleasing to God and might at times, outweigh the strict the adherence to the laws and sacrifices (thank God we do not have to perform any animal sacrifices to please Him today!)
What qualifies an act of mercy? Is going to a loved ones gay wedding an act of mercy?
Just my thought for the day.
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estesbob
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Is affirming anothers sin an act of mercy?
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SirOscar
Guest
Jesus allowed the disciples to sin in his very presence how much more affirmation of sin can there be?
Jesus didn’t slap their hands and rebuke them, did he? Why did he allow them to sin?
Jesus was merciful.
Jesus didn’t slap their hands and rebuke them, did he? Why did he allow them to sin?
Jesus was merciful.
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rinnie
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Sir Oscar, help me here im confused, you said Jesus allowed them to sin, Now yes they went against Jewish law, but Jesus changed alot of Jewish law didnt he. I cant see Jesus making a exception for anyone to sin, Granted they were hungry, Jesus knew this, It wasnt that they were sinning because they wanted to, they were hungry. Isnt there a difference because you are desperate. Wouldnt it be like murder and premed. murder. Like you cant take a life either, but if its self-defense, its not a sin. Having mercy yes i agree, but i cant see where you can compare mercy on someone sinning because they are hungry, and compare this to someone sinning in this situation. Just like Jesus cured the sick man on the sabbath, and they tried to get him on that too. Jesus didnt consider that a sin, Yes he has mercy, but dont we still have to obey. Again if you are in a desperate siituation, yes its rash, but this isnt like that. This is something you have time to think about before you do it.
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nannygirl
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I think you are right on with your last sentence.
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nannygirl
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Well then why wasn’t he merciful to the Pharisees? Why did he rebuke them and allow them to sin? Your argument doesn’t make any sense to me. I can’t believe you would think that Jesus would “affirm” sin…
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Stylteralmaldo
Guest
Then blessedtoo’s analogy about the girl only wanting those who agree with her to be at her wedding isn’t a good analogy to use then because we aren’t comparing apples to apples.
The closest apples to apples analogy I can think of would be abortion because both abortion and homosexual marriage are gravely sinful acts that are legal.
Here’s a hypothetical situation that might be comparable:
A girl decides she wants to get an abortion. She asks you to take her to the abortion clinic even though she knows you are against abortion. Do you take the girl to the abortion clinic or not?
On the surface, the answer is obvious: Why would anyone in their right mind who is against abortion take someone who wants to get an abortion to that clinic? Why would the girl who wants to get an abortion even consider asking someone who she knows is against abortion to take her to that clinic knowing full well your position on abortion?
The moral dilemma:
- If you take her to the abortion clinic, the girl may view this from you as you allowing her to have her opinion of abortion as okay being an acceptable choice for herself even though you disagree with that choice. She gets the abortion and you were the means of getting her to the clinic!
- If you take her to the abortion clinic, the girl may go into the clinic intending to get the abortion, but then being guilt-stricken at the last moment knowing that you are her transportation home decides not to go through with it. You helped save the life of the child and the girl doesn’t commit this horrible sin.
- If you don’t take her to the abortion clinic, the girl may rethink her decision to have the abortion because of how convicted you are that this is wrong to the point that you would be unwilling to participate by taking her to the clinic.
- If you don’t take her to the abortion clinic, the girl may find another more willing participant to help her carry out her abortion - someone more willing to greet her with open arms of making her think what she did was the right decision while you allowed a sinister person an opening to confirm her sinful action.
Whether abortion or a homosexual marriage, we have a duty to be very clear of our position on the matter. If we aren’t clear, we do a great disservice to the person in a sinful life choice. Perhaps our presense at an immoral event (abortion clinic or homosexual wedding) is confirming the sin for the individual. But maybe being present at the event could be the turning point where the person starts to turn towards God.
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St_Aloysius
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Ten pages later…
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