Having close friends that are homosexual

[Stylteralmaldo]

Here’s the relevant Catechism paragraph:

**1868 **Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

• by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
• by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
• by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
• by protecting evil-doers.

What each person needs to discern for themselves is the following:

Is participating directly and voluntarily in the gay wedding cooperating in the homosexual sin itself? What is the definition of directly participating? Obviously - being the husband or wife (er… “other” husband) is direct since it goes without saying that the newly married couple will be acting on their homosexual tendencies.

Perhaps the direct and voluntary cooperation extends to the wedding party - especially the official witnesses. But are those in attendence by invite and not official witnesses also directly participating or is that participation considered indirect?

Even if the participation was considered indirect and perhaps not sinful for the person attending based on the circumstances, one would probably need to discern whether going to this wedding is what God wants them to do knowing that the two newly married persons will be directly and voluntarily sinning with each other perhaps the rest of their lives.

 

[SirOscar]

Did you doubt that your family loved you in spite of not attending your wedding?.

Well, I never felt loved by my mother, but I thought, just maybe, she would show it by being at my wedding. My siblings, we are not close but I do love them all. Growing up, my gay brother & I were inseparable.

Did you fail to realise that it was BECAUSE they loved you and feared for your soul that they didn’t attend?

They feared for my soul…God forbid… I married into the Catholic Faith…AKA Babylon the Great!. They did not attend because they are JWs. They feared breaking the laws set out by the governing body. It had nothing to do with concern for my soul.

Would you not have taken their attendance as tacit acceptance of your wedding, if not warm approval?

If they would have attended, I would have thought, wow they love me regardless of their religious convictions.

Finally, I bet for sure it made you think about what you were doing to an exent that you wouldn’t have done had they attended

No, it did not make me think about what I was doing or the trials that come with marrying a Catholic. Maybe I should have thought more about that!!! (Just kidding)

I do understand what all of you are trying to say, and to some point I agree as you offer some good arguments. By no means do I think that gay marriages should be legalized, and by no means do I approve of the gay life style.

But, I love my brother…and I love him despite his sins.

I am glad too, that I do not have to face this issue. I just struggle…

 

[SirOscar]

Perhaps the direct and voluntary cooperation extends to the wedding party - especially the official witnesses. But are those in attendence by invite and not official witnesses also directly participating or is that participation considered indirect?

Even if the participation was considered indirect and perhaps not sinful for the person attending based on the circumstances, one would probably need to discern whether going to this wedding is what God wants them to do knowing that the two newly married persons will be directly and voluntarily sinning with each other perhaps the rest of their lives.

Very good questions I need to ask myself, Stylteralmaldo.

 

[SirOscar]

God is within everyone?

Yes, we are made in his image and God dwells within us all. Find him in yourself, find him in the homosexual, find him in the drunk, find him in the homeless, find him in the abortionist…the list could go on…Find him in all the sinners. It is only by this, that we can abandon our own judgements and live truly as Christ taught.

Well, we’re all made in His image, albeit for some a very distorted image.

God is the same in all of us.

 

[LilyM]

God is the same in all of us.

No, God is not the same in all of us any more than He is the same in all of the rest of creation. Where do you get this idea that we are all made in THE SAME image and likeness of God? The very differences between the sexes should be enough to tell you this simply is impossible and untrue.

We show forth His image and likeness ‘through a glass darkly’, as St Paul says, meaning we are at best dim reflections. And if Mary, perfect as she was, was bright enough a glass to MAGNIFY (make larger or clearer, as in a magnifying glass) the Lord, the soul of a sinner is the opposite, it dims and obscures Him.

 

[thomfra]

And your authority to make this pronouncement is based on…?

It’s based on my opinion/belief of course. Just like every other poster. I don’t think anybody here can say that they are speaking on “behalf” of the man upstairs.

Of course there is a “moral” to every story. That’s stating the bleeding obvious.

LillyM can say she went to the football together with Easter Bunny and Father Christmas for all I care.

 

[wanner47]

It’s based on my opinion/belief of course. Just like every other poster. I don’t think anybody here can say that they are speaking on “behalf” of the man upstairs.

Of course there is a “moral” to every story. That’s stating the bleeding obvious.

LillyM can say she went to the football together with Easter Bunny and Father Christmas for all I care.

So if it’s only your “opinion,” then you could very easily be wrong about your assertion that everything in the Bible is allegorical and not based on actual fact. (At least, that’s the interpretation I got of your words.)

What is your “opinion” based on? Is it just a gut feeling or are you a Biblical scholar? Do you think that you have the guidance of the Holy Spirit in this matter, and if so, what makes you think so?

And who are you to tell LilyM what she should/should not believe about the contents of the Bible?

What if YOU’RE the one who is wrong about the Bible? That’s a pretty big thing to be wrong about, don’t you think?

 

[redrosetea]

God is certainly not within us all…He can not exist where there is sin…God is only goodness…

 

[SpiritMeadow]

You most certainly can refrain from using labels.

I sincerely don’t know why I bother. Can YOU refrain from using labels or are you above that requirement?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

He knows that I don’t consider his marriage valid. How am I placing my “seal of approval” on his marriage by having supper in his home? I’m not celebrating his marriage by going to his home for a meal. I AM celebrating his marriage by attending his wedding.

I’m not sure why you don’t see the distinction. One is a commonplace event that has no special meaning attached to it other than to spend time together as a family, and one is a function whose sole purpose is to celebrate and bless a union.

I agree that I think it is your failing.

ROFL . You know we never learn a thing when we always conclude that the other person must be wrong.

Did you not read the articles at Jimmy Akin’s blog? He agrees with me, and given that he is the director of apologetics for Catholic Answers, I would say that he would count as “Church authority.” Also, our priest, who is a very holy and learned man, agrees with me.

Yes I am aware of what he says. I don’t agree with it, and I would not be citing to CA as authority. Their position is extreme.

Who else in “Church authority” have you asked, by the way?
I have asked my parish priest and 2 sisters and consulted everything I could find on the subject in terms of encyclicals. I can find no such extreme position as you ennuciate.

You also didn’t answer my question. Is it acceptable for a pedophile to have sex with small children as long as he is just following Christ’s teachings as he interprets them? Or is it acceptable for someone to murder another just as long as they are following Christ’s teachings as they interpret them?

Given that your questions are based on an erroneous assumption which I explained I can see no need to, but if you must. the answer would be no to both. (They happen to be criminal acts in case you missed that point as well.)

Luckily, the Church’s isn’t, because the Church has been granted the charism of infallibility by the Holy Spirit.

Yep, you can of course just give off all responsibility to the Church. But of course, it begs the question, it is your interpretation that the Church has done so in this instance yet you have shown me nothing to prove that contention.

 

[estesbob]

I sincerely don’t know why I bother. Can YOU refrain from using labels or are you above that requirement?

I only use them when they fit.

 

[thomfra]

So if it’s only your “opinion,” then you could very easily be wrong about your assertion that everything in the Bible is allegorical and not based on actual fact. (At least, that’s the interpretation I got of your words.)

What is your “opinion” based on? Is it just a gut feeling or are you a Biblical scholar? Do you think that you have the guidance of the Holy Spirit in this matter, and if so, what makes you think so?

And who are you to tell LilyM what she should/should not believe about the contents of the Bible?

What if YOU’RE the one who is wrong about the Bible? That’s a pretty big thing to be wrong about, don’t you think?

Am I wrong to say that Noah’s ark is not an historical fact? Is **this **what you believe?

Like I said. LilyM is free to believe what she wants.

Even “facts” by a “Biblical scholar” as you say- are merely interpretations.

What we believe we believe based on “faith”. You weren’t there. Nor was I, nor was anybody who is alive today.

But you know this already no?

 

[urban-hermit]

ROFL . You know we never learn a thing when we always conclude that the other person must be wrong.

Is this the kind of ROFL that might be effected when somebody has lost a debate?

Yes I am aware of what he says. I don’t agree with it, and I would not be citing to CA as authority. Their position is extreme.

I can see in a way what you mean when you say CA is extreme. They have a sort of zero-tolerance policy regarding lies and b-s.

I have asked my parish priest and 2 sisters and consulted everything I could find on the subject in terms of encyclicals. I can find no such extreme position as you ennuciate.

So would you say that you have formed your Catholic conscience on this matter to the best of your ability? (rhetorical question - i know you think you have)

Given that your questions are based on an erroneous assumption which I explained I can see no need to, but if you must. the answer would be no to both. (They happen to be criminal acts in case you missed that point as well.)

Yay! I am glad that you are against pedophilia and murder. There’s still a glimmer of hope for your spirit, as well as your meadow!

Yep, you can of course just give off all responsibility to the Church. But of course, it begs the question, it is your interpretation that the Church has done so in this instance yet you have shown me nothing to prove that contention.

This one really hurt, because I am one of those profoundly stupid people who can’t think for themselves and just always goes along with the Catholic Church on moral matters.

The following was already posted early in the discussion. But here it is again.

In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.

SOURCE:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

 

[urban-hermit]

I feel this is also relevant since some posters, or maybe it was just meadowspirit - i’m not sure, but anyway somebody somewhere intimated they didn’t think Jesus cared one way or the other about this issue, or that He would go to the ceremony and clap His hands and smile and stuff.

Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

SOURCE:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2357

May God have mercy on us all, the uncharitable and the unchaste alike. And please join me in thanking Him for making His holy will known to us in this clear, unambiguous way. As Jesus said in the Gospel, many men of good will throughout the ages have desired to hear what we have heard, but were not given that grace and privilege. Let’s not scorn this incredible generosity of God, and explain patiently and sincerely to our gay friends why we won’t be at their commitment ceremonies, and then skip those ceremonies with a clear conscience, observing the first of Jesus’ 2 great commandments: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength - and trusting that if we do that only then will we be able to truly love our neighbor as ourself.

 

[rinnie]

I agree with you Jesus does care. I see these People as the lost sheep and Jesus is waiting for them to come home. All we can do is pray for them, dont condem, but dont agree with sin either. And pray that somehow they will turn away from their sin and come back to God. Dont get me wrong we should all turn away from our sin too, we all have it. Maybe just pray for eachother. Guess it goes back to the splinter in the eye. But the bottom line is just because we all have sin, never makes any sin right.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Under no circumstances can they be approved.

This really is the crux of the matter. I’m hopeful all Catholics can agree that homosexual acts are not be be approved of under any circumstances.

I think where the shades of gray come in is whether attending a wedding between homosexual persons is approving of the homosexual act itself between those persons. Honestly, both sides have made compelling arguments. When it comes down to it, each person needs to discern whether or not attending would be damaging to the souls involved including their own. This isn’t a black and white issue. The best advice is to ask a good priest or spiritual director on the correct course of action to take.

 

[fix]

This really is the crux of the matter. I’m hopeful all Catholics can agree that homosexual acts are not be be approved of under any circumstances.

I think where the shades of gray come in is whether attending a wedding between homosexual persons is approving of the homosexual act itself between those persons. Honestly, both sides have made compelling arguments. When it comes down to it, each person needs to discern whether or not attending would be damaging to the souls involved including their own. This isn’t a black and white issue. The best advice is to ask a good priest or spiritual director on the correct course of action to take.

How would attending not be a sign of approval?

 

[estesbob]

This really is the crux of the matter. I’m hopeful all Catholics can agree that homosexual acts are not be be approved of under any circumstances.

I think where the shades of gray come in is whether attending a wedding between homosexual persons is approving of the homosexual act itself between those persons. Honestly, both sides have made compelling arguments. When it comes down to it, each person needs to discern whether or not attending would be damaging to the souls involved including their own. This isn’t a black and white issue. The best advice is to ask a good priest or spiritual director on the correct course of action to take.

Are there any celebrations you feel it would be improper for Catholics who attend? If one attends a celebration does that not mean they are participating in celebrating whatever is being celebrated?

 

[St_Aloysius]

“Friends come and go”. Imagine we all thought that way. Showing some solidarity with your friend is what Jesus would have done. I think he would understand that you are in a difficult situation.

And by the way, it’s not “indulging” homosexuality/homosexuals, it’s “showing acceptance and compassion”. It’s not a trend, it’s social progress that we should all be thankful for.

Finally! Someone with a heart and some sense…

 

[estesbob]

“Friends come and go”. Imagine we all thought that way. Showing some solidarity with your friend is what Jesus would have done. I think he would understand that you are in a difficult situation.

And by the way, it’s not “indulging” homosexuality/homosexuals, it’s “showing acceptance and compassion”. It’s not a trend, it’s social progress that we should all be thankful for.

So one shows compassion by accpeting grevious sin? Can you show me where I can find that in the catechism? Can you show me where I can find that in Scripture?

Is homosexuality the only sin we have to accept? If someone is our friend do we have to accept any and all sins the publicy commit?