Having culture in the mass

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Because in Samoan culture dance has spiritual overtones and helps create an atmosphere of reverence. Not all cultures have this perception of dance, so dancing in Mass where the culture doesn’t percieve dance as spiritual is not the same thing. I wouldn’t want someone dancing a Middle Eastern dabke or tango in Mass since I don’t see any of those as spiritual.
 
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Inculturation can be good. Often, cultures have things associated with the sacred and holy that are deeply ingrained in the consciousness of the culture–when these these things are present, the people immediately recognized sacredness.

To help such cultures recognize sacredness in Christianity, the Church can and has adapted such things that said to the culture loud and clear “this is sacred” in her worship (as far as was possible without falling into superstition or syncretism).

The bigger problem is what I call “unculturation.” This is sadly what happened in many Catholic cultures in the “west”–we replaced things the culture has long held to signify sacredness and Catholicism generally with things from the culture (or from no culture) that do not have such significance at all. That’s the opposite of inculturation.
 
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The Ordinariate Use is full of Anglo culture. Tudor English; British musical settings; at the Offices, English style vestments; more often than not hymns from the British tradition.
 
Did you watch the video of Cardinal Arinze? He answers the question fully. The Samoan culture is a culture where people have danced in a spiritual manner for a long time. If people are dancing to Beethoven or Bach (which, those two aren’t even really known for that in their works). But, if people did for a ballet or one of their works, it would be for entertainment.

It really is a poor example though. How could you dance to Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring? Hymns set to Ode to Joy? Or, O Sacred Head now Wounded… which will be played (traditionally) on Good Friday, when the Eucharist is taken to the Altar of Repose?
I certainly have never seen anyone dance to those in any setting.

I lastly will add, I think its striking that this is a funeral Mass. Obviously Somoan culture handles funerals in a very different way than other cultures. Also, more is allowed in a funeral Mass. Is it wrong to play bagpipes for a funeral Mass? No. That is a cultural expression. And, such expressions are defintitely more allowable at a funeral or a wedding Mass.
 
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Loud-living-dogma said:
So the fact that these vestments have been used for a millennia and a half has no meaning?
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The problem with this argument is that it implies that you can do anything as long as you hold out in doing it long enough and outlast your opponent (although I don’t really believe that this was your meaning🙂).

Look, I’m not a canon lawyer (or whoever it is who determines what’s in and what’s out for liturgy).
Liturgy is a public affair, and regulated by authorities in the Churchfor whom this is their job to figure it all out.
I don’t know what the critera are.
But if they give the go-ahead for dancing or drumming or particular genres of music, I’m fine with that (not that my opinion is being sought anyway haha).

For private devotions, if you want to go out and joyfully dance in a field in honor of God’s creation, that’s fine too. Scripture tells us King David danced in front of the Ark of the Covenenant.

But I am arguing that there are precedents in scripture and tradition for dance in our Churches, so if the Bishop has given the go-ahead, I’m not getting my mantilla in a bunch over it.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
As for your dancing point, in Europe dance does not have any spiritual overtones and has never had them. In many, many other parts of the world, dance does have spiritual overtones.
When you laugh at the idea of dancing at Mass, you’re very obviously coming from a European outlook.
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That’s not true. European countries have a complex and varied history of sacred dance - spirituality and dancing were inextricably connected.
 
Can you please provide us with examples? I’ve never heard of this before and would like to learn more.
 
Not to my knowledge. I was responding to the assertion that dance in Europe has never been connected with spirituality, which is incorrect and was being asserted in order to suggest some sort of cultural shortsightedness.
 
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Thank you Everyone for the (name removed by moderator)ut. I’m reading through everyone’s comments. I appreciate the thoughts. It does give me a bit of comfort to see positive feedback. Thank y’all! 💯✊💯
God Bless
 
From Ecclesia in Oceania (JP II):
The Synod Fathers frequently emphasized the importance of inculturation for any authentic Christian life in Oceania. The process of inculturation is the gradual way in which the Gospel is incarnated in the various cultures. On the one hand, certain cultural values must be transformed and purified, if they are to find a place in a genuinely Christian culture. On the other hand, in various cultures Christian values readily take root. Inculturation is born out of respect for both the Gospel and the culture in which it is proclaimed and welcomed. The process of inculturation began in Oceania as immigrant people brought the Christian faith from their homelands. For the indigenous peoples of Oceania, inculturation meant a new conversation between the world that they had known and the faith to which they had come. As a result, Oceania offers many examples of unique cultural expressions in the areas of theology, liturgy and the use of religious symbols.The Synod Fathers saw further inculturation of the Christian faith as the way leading to the fullness of ecclesial communio… appropriate use of symbols drawn from local cultures can avert the cultural alienation of indigenous people when they approach the Church’s worship. The words and signs of the liturgy will be the words and signs of their soul.
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I am Native American… I am pima/navajo… fullblood. I think this is Great!!!.. I am always reminded of when Pope John Paul ll came to Phx, Az in the 80s… he let one of our tribal elders smoke him down with cedar and bless him in our way. He told him to keep our ways… it was Our way to honor God and his creation.
Since that time… it’s always what I’ve told my kids… for POC–Yes we are Catholic BUT we are also whatever race/culture that we were born into as well. I cant do away with my culture no matter what…
Our tribe is Hugely catholic… the famous historic St Xavier Church in southern Az is on our rez(reservation) and I’ve always loved going back home and seeing the altar cloth with our Man in the Maze tribal symbols on the altar… it makes me feel good about being a catholic and helps me to reconcile all the bad things that have been my people by/in the name of the catholic church as a whole (not individuals… some individuals helped natives out immensely.)
That’s how I feel. I think its Fantastic that Mass is celebrated in Samoan and that you have aspects of your own ways to honor the Lord. I do believe that we were given our ways to honor God and incorporating them in Mass helps many people of that culture. I know on the White River rez in Az that they use hand drums a lot instead of the bells…and that at my own parish in SLC, Ut that once in awhile, the African refugees sing songs in their language in place of regular English hymns and its neat to hear how they do things in their homelands❤
 
The funny thing is, though, that the person whose culture is being included in the Mass feels that it is out of place.
 
Honestly, in the Cardinal Arinze clip, he seems not to be talking about a full-blown dance / cultural performance, but rather, people who walk in a graceful and rhythmic way (at 5:00, he says “it is not a dance, it is a graceful movement to show joy”), and that a typical African bringing up gifts moves “not stiffly, like a typical European, but right and left in a graceful way”. He also very clearly says at 3:30, “Dance is not known in the Latin rite of the Mass”.
 
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SepeliniM said:
I LOVE my culture, but I don’t necessarily see why it should be in the Mass. Not that it’s not beautiful, it just doesn’t necessarily feel right.
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It is right insofar as the Church doesn’t condemn it.

Where there’s no Magisterial statement against the Samoan Masses, the issue is a matter of preference and not Church teaching. And in matters of preference, you should seek out a parish that better suits your style of worship.

As I gradually become a more seasoned Catholic, I’m learning to overlook some of the more cringeworthy aspects of some liturgies, (I’m looking at you, OCP Missal!). I’m ultimately there for the Eucharist, not for the other bells and whistles.
 
Personal preference and nothing more. I don’t care for the music. That’s the most I’ll say because the discussion can get acrimonious on this forum . . .
 
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